Treknetters, False Bay, Muizenberg

[MadRookie]

eish people......

I have read all the posts.

As we are all humans with individual personalities, it is a fact that opinions will differ.

However, in the interest of the "fishing" environment I believe the following is applicable.....

1.ALL(treknetters & anglers) of us should respect the regulations governing the particular sport/hobby/recreation/job

2.In any of the above, one will always find individuals who transgress & do the shocking/unthinkable etc....

3.Let us just ensure that WE always do the right thing, it can & will make a difference in the bigger picture, albeit how insignificant it might appear to be.

4.Research surveys & associated stastistics could be construed to balance either end of the scale & rarely reflects hands-on application as it truly is/happens.

5.So, without criticizing any poster & respecting their individual opinions.....I humbly request that we do not create an in house "brawl", but rather focus on doing our little bit right.....

 

[Marthin]

[color=#006600]jb2[/color] wrote:

[color=#006600]strikerpro[/color] wrote:

quote JB "It is a bit of a low blow to say I don't agree with you but I don't feel like explaing why."

Sorry my intentions was not to give a low blow it's just so obvious that trekking of yellowtail and cob for example is simply not sustainable. I'll continue the debate if needed.

You don't say why Bennet and Lamberth are wrong.

What always surprises me is that so many comments on Sealine and everywhere else i.e. a commonly held opinion is that if a quota was issued and an investment made by quota holders and the livelihood of people influenced is that they (DEATs MCM) cannot or shouldn't stop the quota holders enabling them of continuing unabated. What guarantee did government provide by issuing a quota? Did they garuantee that there would be fish? Did they guarauntee that it is sustainable? Should they as a minimum then not say that this is an undesirable practice and unsustainable but due to the following factors we are unable to stop issuing these licences?

Have you not been amazed at the reduction of effort that MCM has achieved in the linefishery. The current effort is a fraction of what it ws. This is because MCM has been so firm

The question is, is it sustainable? No it is not sustainable to continue treknetting yellowtail in false bay.

The decisions surrounding yellowtail consider a number of factors. The restrictions on effort, the susceptibility to capture etc. (I am not sure why yu disagree with Lamberth, Attwood, Wilke and the rest who have a good handle on the stock.

Quote JB "You are missing the main point and that is that harders make up mst of the catch!"

Why as an interim measure do they not prevent the treknets from only catching baitfish ...harders then. The reason is simple because trekking the other species is making most of their money!

This is the whole point the impact is low and the other species have always formed part of their catch.  If something can be caught then let people catch it.

 

JB i'm sorry you have made statements that i feel are wrong in the past but never have i been able to say you made an idiotic statement.  Till now.  The last part of that statement is the absolute essence of a poacher's, let alone someone with a commercial right that has a bit of a deviant side for a buck, mentality and thinking.

If something can be caught let the people catch it.  If there is nothing left then let the buggers starve or steal.

There is a bit of a Zimbabwe ring to this the more i think about it.  Take business/farms away from the select few because they are just there to enrich themselves the bastards.  Give it to the masses as it was always supposed to be their's.  Sounds brilliant in theory and even i agree to it. 

But allow the masses to take what they need, and very soon they take what they want, with no thought of tomorrow. 

If the yellowtail come into falsebay in a trekable depth for 3 days in a row, they'll take nets full for 3 days in a row.  If the geelbek are dik at a spot, the recreationals will take and take and take as much as they can.  When the snoek were dik last year in that one spell, in the end snoek were being sold for R8 each in St Helena baai, coz the market was completely saturated.  If the stump are on the bite at langebaan off the rocks there, guys just take.

I started this post and i'm more and more deciding it was a bad idea.  What i do feel, is that treknetting needs to be better managed.  If the trekkers hit a excellent catch like they did in the pictures of the yellowtail for example, the clever people can work out the numbers, they should not be allowed to trek for a certain time period thereafter, weather that be hours or days.  There needs to be a cooling period, and a chance for the fish to either move off if they want, or IF they are congregating there to spawn for the fish that are left to at least get a time do go about their business.  If you got a net full of large kob on friday, there is no need for you to trek again on sunday... refer to above, this is where taking what you need turns into taking what u want, and need has been replaced by greed.

 

[jb2]

Marthin, you are 100% right. The statement should have been clearer.

"If something can be caught (in and ecologically sustainable way) then let them catch it.

Closure for the sake of closure does not make sense


After reading Patricks post a bit of an edit is needed.

There is no law that says that you have to live on the breadline. If you are a commercial fisherman, then be a good one.

Work hard, catch what you are allowed to catch. Run your business like any other. Surely that can't be wrong?

 

[Patrick]

[color=#006600]Marthin[/color] wrote:

refer to above, this is where taking what you need turns into taking what u want, and need has been replaced by greed.

Hi Martin,

The problem is that there is no direct need for the fish to fill hungry bellies. Treknetting needs to be seen for what it really is. A profit making business venture. Thats it, nothing further. The crew and permit holder arent feeding their starving communities or families directly with these fish caught. The crew are paid staff, employed by the permit holder, who's sole intention is to make a profit off selling these fish. Plain business. So as long as the fish are there, they will trek them till they drop. Its their stock to make a profit with.

If the fish were being used to fill their deepfreezers to provide food for their families, then your statement would come true and they would only trek what they need. But that isnt the case.

 

[Nightfox]

[color=#006600]Marthin[/color] wrote:

I started this post and i'm more and more deciding it was a bad idea.  What i do feel, is that treknetting needs to be better managed.  If the trekkers hit a excellent catch like they did in the pictures of the yellowtail for example, the clever people can work out the numbers, they should not be allowed to trek for a certain time period thereafter, weather that be hours or days.  There needs to be a cooling period, and a chance for the fish to either move off if they want, or IF they are congregating there to spawn for the fish that are left to at least get a time do go about their business.  If you got a net full of large kob on friday, there is no need for you to trek again on sunday... refer to above, this is where taking what you need turns into taking what u want, and need has been replaced by greed.

 

Hit the nail on the head there marthin

 

[Carlic Bait]

@ US$ 1000 PER BOUT 120 BOUTS, WAT HET VAN AL DAARDIE GELD GEWORD. DIE"RED BOUTS" BEHOORT N LEEFTYD TEEN R600.00 PER DAG NET OP DIE RENTE DAARVAN TE FUNKSIONEER.IEMAND SE BROEKSAK HET SEKER N GAATJIE GEHAD.

 

[Walt]

[color=#006600]jb2[/color] wrote:

Marthin, you are 100% right. The statement should have been clearer.

"If something can be caught (in and ecologically sustainable way) then let them catch it.

Closure for the sake of closure does not make sense


After reading Patricks post a bit of an edit is needed.

There is no law that says that you have to live on the breadline. If you are a commercial fisherman, then be a good one.

Work hard, catch what you are allowed to catch. Run your business like any other. Surely that can't be wrong?

OK!Let's open some eyes here as some have their blinkers on!!!Go through all Sealine Threads & do some research on how many are for Treknetting & how many are opposed to it.Very few plusses & masses of negs!Why?Shouldn't we be overthrown & take cognizance of the words of many than by one or 2 defenders who may have ulterior motives for this defence of the treknetter.There's a saying 'You can Fool some people all of the time and you can fool all people some of the time ,But you can't fool all people all of the time'.If the majority can't get a hearing we have anarchy in politics in this country.So,why does this majority issue fall on deaf ears?One needs an open mind & one can't just pay judgement once off like with treknetting. Most responses here are those bearing witness to carnage, that has been going on wrt treknetting, on a regular most frequent basis.It won't be long before the masses are always heard,and I feel whether it's this year or in 3 years time,treknetting is living on borrowed time.And it's not just treknetting,but the hangers on and the spin offs I've heard of arising from treknetting. 

 

[Patrick]

[color=#006600]jb2[/color] wrote:

There is no law that says that you have to live on the breadline. If you are a commercial fisherman, then be a good one.

Work hard, catch what you are allowed to catch. Run your business like any other. Surely that can't be wrong?

For me, not when it destroys threatened or lesser species, and not when its at an unsustainable level. We are entering an era of environmental concern (well mostly global warming at this stage), and companies abroad are starting to be held accountable for their actions, and we should follow suite too.

Whether treknetting is sustainable or not is dependant on which fish we're talking about i guess. Kob, steenbras, no ways. Harders, yellowtail, perhaps. More knowledge of their other spawing areas needs to be known to know if they are recooperating elsewhere outside of trekking areas.

I agree that pictures of large hauls of fish do invoke emotions and a hint of jealousy, but the undersize kob, skates etc also in the haul make it much easier to dislike trekkers, and for good reason. In this day and age of technological advance, can the trekkers not work together with MCM and scientists to find a better method of catching their target species? In fact, wouldnt purse seine netting be less destructive than beach seine? If i understand correctly, with purse seine the shoal fish are circled,trapped in the net and pulled into a boat. Much less destructive than a net being pulled through back onto the beach where its picking up all other fish in the shore zone.

Lastly, i wonder if the trekkers put as much thought into their fish as we do on these forums.  

 

 

 

 

[Marthin]

Patrick not to worry. It might take a little time but from next year we are all going to pay "green tax". What your income that you get does to the environment is going to be taken into account. Overseas companies etc will stop doing business with ventures not adhering to strict environmental codes. How long before it reaches farming fishing etc i dunno but it won't be to long at all. Just wednesday on the news there was some or other conference where the people were talking about total collapse of all resources in the ocean by 2050. As in NOTHING LEFT except a big blue empty piece of salty water.

 

[Walt]

Before this 'Collapse of all resources in 2050' happens,another water issue has sprung a leak.Mention has been made that our domestic water resources will dwindle to a treacle in 20 years time.Which would mean a total legitimate way to survive would be to become Alcohol dependent should there be an excessive shortage of water.Perhaps that's why so many are already with the program as Practice makes Perfect.

 

[strikerpro]

imported post

 

[jb2]

Hi Strikerpro I am glad you decided to discuss things. I will reply later.

Why do you take personal umbridge though.

 

 

[jb2]

OK

Let's zoom out a bit to get an idea of what we are discussing.

There has been a lot written about trekking on Sealine and Marthin writes to say that his worst expectations were not met.

This upset some people.

If we look at some of the criticism, some is worth looking at and some is not so helpful.

Those of you who have read my ramblings and musings will recall that I have avoided reference to the recreational sectors.

Maroodt posted a very upsetting picture of a ray that had been killed. I found the picture upsetting but we started to get inot trouble. Some of the critiques could also be applied to recreationals or "CABAtoR" for short.  Using the CABAtoR test is handy since it keeps us focussed on a particular issue.

This throws animal welfare issues out the window immediately. There are too many people who don't like fishing at all. Welfare and "cruelty" is big time CABAtoR.

Then we have the concern that the trekking is driven by financial interest. I am not sure why it is a sin to earn a living. This is indirect CABAtoR.

Many sealiners seem to be in the service and sales game. Just because you do things for money does not mean that you will automatically be dishonest.

Sure money is the root of all evil and all that but the fact that people fish for a living does not make them dishonest. On the contrary we have had a lot of discussion about people who do not have authorisations to fish for shark for example who are selling their catch. I do not like to think of these poachers as "recreationals" but since others do we have a huge CABAtoR  risk here.

We then have an interesting comment from Walt which can be summarised by saying that if enough people think that something should be done then it should be done.

This approach is referred to as a "utilitarian" argument. If the majority are convinced then lets go ahead. This is a very unstatisfying approach. The most extreme manifestation of the argument would be gang rape where one person is inconienced to the wishes of many.

How does this stack againts the CABAtoR test? Whooa If a whole bunch of people felt that recreational fishing was wrong. You would tell them to get lost.

Walt, Sealine is a very small sample from a narrow demographic. On the subject Walt don't you owe me some kind of acknowledgent setting out that I do all kinds of stuff for free?

Wouldn't you like to address the issues of trekkers being movedby money?

Muhaha had some comments about exporting fish which did not take things further. Just don't let him run your farm!

Strikerpro takes a much more extreme view and mixes in some useful comments.

The yellowtail example that you provide is not useful because of the effort limitations. I assume that you are from Natal. I got a fright when I saw how the guys in Durbs do things the Cape is a different animal.

I would not be in a hurry to cite "Ski Boat" as a serious source. I think that the editorials are aimed to sell magazines.

The quick question touching  the issue of the longliners is how do we deal with big eye at the IOTC and  the CCSBT without the JV vessels.

Strikerpro I have not found an answer to that in the editorials of Ski Boat. If you have any thoughts on how we can address these issues in the absence of the JV vessels then let me know. If not then I will invite you to skip the editorial page.

I have not seen anything discrediting the studies that I refer to. Maybe they have been validated by later research?

You probably feel as strongly about the monitors and I would be glad to hear your thoughts.

I will write more when I am not so tired and sunburnt.

 

[strikerpro]

imported post

 

[jb2]

[color=#006600]strikerpro[/color] wrote:

JB you haven't addressed any of my concerns. You merely dismiss certain aspects of the concerns i raised such as Ski-Boat editorial wanting to sell magazines. The reality is that Dave Rorke's points are mostly valid. The trouble i've seen in the past with Ski-Boat editorials is that people read it and then armed with only this short editorial try and debate the issues with guys on the other end whom are backed up by more knowledge on the issues albeit with subjective views for their own agenda.

Livelihood of treknetters - with the current quotas allocated many families that have a long history of treknetting are unable to participate in the industry and have been forced to pursue other careers. What about the rest? sometimes trying your best isn't good enough what about the rest?

The trekkers are getting along as far as I understand. The nets in Natal are not related to the nets in the Cape.

Why are False Bay treknetters allowed to trek under 'special' licenses where species other than only baitfish is allowed to be trekked? What about the other trekkers in other areas?

The nature of the right is linked to its physical location and the record of catches. Trekking in False Bay always had a mixed bag. If I understand correctly, harders make up the bulk of the catch in terms of catch composition but other species are obviously far more valuable commercially.

What is your take on linefish trawling and longlining are these sustainable in your view? Are there problems in these sectors? If so what is YOUR recommendation?

Trawling and longlining have their own problems. Let's look at the trawling sectors. The offshore hake trawls are not as problematic as the inshore hake trawls.

Offshore hake has high discards and high bird bycatch. I know they are trying to work with Meidad from Birdlife to work out a solution.

Midwater horse mackerel trawls are less problematic in terms of bycatch and I don't know enough about their bird bycatch. I assume that since there is only one boat working South Africa's quota so I'm sure people are onto it. Don't they have 100% observer coverage? Can't remember.

The big problem is inshore trawling. Geographically it is conducted in a critical area where our endangered endemic linefish species are found. The amount of capacity in the sector has also been maintained by the high hake prices.

I have concerns with overly mechanised fisheries and the landings of kob, snoek, panga etc are a huge problem. Their discards sicken me.

KZN crustaceans- High bycatch but low effort. Only six boats allowed in a tightly controlled area. I know they moaned about the closure of the Tugela area but the effort cap is intense. MCM is not about to increase the effort so I can live with them. Discards are a bit lower since they use a lot of the bycatch such as the Metanephrops and Chaecon. The type of high grading is different.

Pelagic Longlining is heavily monitorred. There were hassles with the Koreans who thought that they were fishing in Somalia and not a regulated country but the Japanese vessels are a decent lot. 100% observer coverage by independent observers sending back trip reports. Very professional. Close cooperation with conservation NGO's like Birdlife and WWF.

The local longliners have 20% coverage by observers and are not as tuna focussed.

The pelagic shark longliners are in the process of being phased out and I don't expect them to remain in a few months time.

Demersal shark longliners actually catch very little of the shark that is landed. The ESS study showed their relatively small catches. Small fishery of only six vessels. Not an enormous impact. Geographiclally constrained. Close cooperation with NGO's. Excluded from observer coverage by MCM cos they left them out of the program. The industry has asked for coverage by NGO's or MCM. Still no reply from MCM.

Hake Longline has bycatch issues Bird bycatch is low. Keep in mind the whole sink rate story with demersal gear. Stock levels are an issue. discards of some fish could be an issue but it is being sorted out.

Toothfish longline is a mystery to me!

I don't share your views on MCM. The days are gone of MCM adding much value. It's run like a corner cafee. The compliance monitoring, the financial management, coporate governance of this organisation has a terminal cancer. They are doing a shoddy job. Without proper financial management they are unable to do a proper job, be it for research, compliance. It will be easy to say when another species collapse, as i believe we will start seeing more and more,  that  the fish congegrate outside of our waters and the lack of control elsewhere has lead to our resources being plundered.

The effort reduction in the hake sector is maybe a good example. I don't know how the power across the shaft calculation is performed but you must admit that it is a good idea.

The centralised stats for the pilchards is mindblowing if you think that they were accurate down to a couple of kilos and they were monitorring 200 million kilos.

Compliance is just useless I agree.

Your comments are that MCM is doing a decent job, then how exactly does it happen that almost all our linefish species are collapsed or critically over exploited? How did this occur in the hands of MCM's "competent" hands our custodian of our waters. There are good competent employees in MCM but the percentage is very small and they are outnumbered by incompetent personnel and a rogue management team.



We are now experiencing the stuff ups of previous mismanagement. There was not even a resource management component up until a few years ago.

The offshore and inshore management components are different animals and it would be unfair to lump them together.

 

[strikerpro]

imported post

 

[jb2]

[color=#006600]strikerpro[/color] wrote:

"Attempts to validate these reports (catch records) were unsuccessful, as reporting by net fishermen was extremely erratic and there were too many zero values for statistical analyses because of > 80% of observed catches not being reported at all"

extract from Bennett's writings on treknetting. this says it all. we simply don't know what the status of our yellowtail stocks are as enough current research has not been done. the conclusion is that there is no evidence to support that this species is over exploited but there is not sufficient accurate current research to assume this. now what is important is that many of these research articles imply that they cannot accurately conclude based on that the information used in the research is only as accurate as the catch records reported to them. My view remains that our yellowtail stocks are doomed to the fate of our white steenbras stocks and by eliminating treknetting of this species it will greatly assist in ensuring that this species is not overexploited. i conclude that the only reason this species has been around for longer in greater numbers is that they are faster growing unlike the collapsed species like white steenbras.

our linefish species, longlining, trawlers well i don't even want to start, decided that this was about treknetting so let me rather stick to the subject......

10 years from now i foresee a very bleak picture for our fisheries. WWF SA and numerous other parties are trying their best but the bell is tolling - we are losing faster than we are gaining and it won't be pretty.

farewell my friend.

Hi Strikerpro

I think that Lamberth's later work replicated the effort involved and there are now independant monitors.

The fact that yellowtail are faster growing and distributed so far is the whole point.

I am so glad that you raise WWF . They give full marks to haarders "green" certification

As to the other sectors, you asked so I gave my thoughts.

 

 

[Dave Rorke]

jb2 wrote

"I would not be in a hurry to cite "Ski Boat" as a serious source. I think that the editorials are aimed to sell magazines.

 

[Dave Rorke]

jb2 knows nothing about me nor how I personally feel about the manner in which our marine resources are being managed, yet he makes the "educated" statement that he "would not be in a hurry to cite "Ski Boat" as a serious source. I think that the editorials are aimed to sell magazines." I find that rather insulting to me as an editor, to me as someone with an opinion on the manners in which our stocks are being decimated, and the hypocrisy, inefficiency and incompetence in which our government is not even trying to manage this.

Lies, deceit, theft, fraud, lip-service, false promises, bloody useless, the lot of them. fish rots from the head down. Can we expect anything better? If we all shut up, like jp2 avers (just because our opinions are aimed at selling magazines), we might as well close down sites like this, curb public opinion, and rot like Russia did for 50 years. The day people like jp2 stop people like me from expressing an opinion because we think it might make a difference, well, goodbye world.
jp2, your statement was uncalled for, uneducated and just plain bloody stupid.

 

[temp]

J