Shimano TN & TOR Anti-reverse Failure Hiya Gu
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Polychaete
Senior Member
I wrote something on this about a year ago. I can't find it now, but the solution is simply to replace the anti reverse pawl on those reels with ones from the Trini DC. It fits in both Torium and old gold Trini.
This non clicking system can not work as well as the old tried an tested way.
This non clicking system can not work as well as the old tried an tested way.
HI everyone
The roller was never designed to take the place of the dog and never will be able to either.The roller cannot sustain the amount of strain the dog takes it was designed only to act as a back up to the newer design with the fingers that engage and lock the dog once reversed. The problem is with wading as soon as sand gets into the roller the plastic housing starts to wear and the excess clearance created then causes the roller to slip, the roller should when worn really badly be replaced with the sleeve is runs against, when there is a polished ridge on the sleeve then it must be dumped and replaced also. The shimano suffers more dog lock failue than the saltist as gravity is employed in a positve lock up on the saltist dog. A roller cannot work as effectively as the conventional dog set up thats why the DC has this employed by shimano and an even nigger double size roller. Look at the penn torque series a roller but it also has a double dog lock up to prevent any anti-reverse problems, the older reels dont suffer from this as the dog reverse pressure remains positive all the time.
A bigger dog and thicker dog and ratchet plates are not needed as some guys fit the standard ones are designed to give before the gearing fails please take that into consideration, the you increase the stress point in any reel it will create another weakpoint else, so your gear -main or pinion will give as they are alli-bronze, or something else in the cage or frame may break as the the built up stress must be released when the breech strength is attained. Keep the dog free of heavy grease dont bend the dogs fingers when you remove the ratchet plate and only lightly grease to roller bearing with a good thin marine grease to prevent corrosion and protect the plastic cage they run in. In essence the positive pressue spring pawl whether its a wave spring normal rention spring or the abu curled pawl spring will always be the best set up in a reel. If there was something better Carl Newell would have come up with it 25 years back already SMILE. I have fixed replaced and modified many dog springs, when fitting a normal one like in the Penn reels and not like the speedmaster one please ensure the dog remains pushed out positively without harse contact against the ratchet plate as this will do more harm than good in wearing both down in a short time the pressure MUST be light but only strong enough to ensure it engages positively. TIGHT LINES guys and have a doggy doggy day !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The roller was never designed to take the place of the dog and never will be able to either.The roller cannot sustain the amount of strain the dog takes it was designed only to act as a back up to the newer design with the fingers that engage and lock the dog once reversed. The problem is with wading as soon as sand gets into the roller the plastic housing starts to wear and the excess clearance created then causes the roller to slip, the roller should when worn really badly be replaced with the sleeve is runs against, when there is a polished ridge on the sleeve then it must be dumped and replaced also. The shimano suffers more dog lock failue than the saltist as gravity is employed in a positve lock up on the saltist dog. A roller cannot work as effectively as the conventional dog set up thats why the DC has this employed by shimano and an even nigger double size roller. Look at the penn torque series a roller but it also has a double dog lock up to prevent any anti-reverse problems, the older reels dont suffer from this as the dog reverse pressure remains positive all the time.
A bigger dog and thicker dog and ratchet plates are not needed as some guys fit the standard ones are designed to give before the gearing fails please take that into consideration, the you increase the stress point in any reel it will create another weakpoint else, so your gear -main or pinion will give as they are alli-bronze, or something else in the cage or frame may break as the the built up stress must be released when the breech strength is attained. Keep the dog free of heavy grease dont bend the dogs fingers when you remove the ratchet plate and only lightly grease to roller bearing with a good thin marine grease to prevent corrosion and protect the plastic cage they run in. In essence the positive pressue spring pawl whether its a wave spring normal rention spring or the abu curled pawl spring will always be the best set up in a reel. If there was something better Carl Newell would have come up with it 25 years back already SMILE. I have fixed replaced and modified many dog springs, when fitting a normal one like in the Penn reels and not like the speedmaster one please ensure the dog remains pushed out positively without harse contact against the ratchet plate as this will do more harm than good in wearing both down in a short time the pressure MUST be light but only strong enough to ensure it engages positively. TIGHT LINES guys and have a doggy doggy day !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gentlemen, thank you for the invitation to weigh in on this discussion. i took some time to read all of the responses and find them all worthy of careful consideration. for a final recommendation, i must defer to those that are wiser than me. the short answer is carbontex drag washers, cal's grease, a spring loaded dog and corrosion x in the AR bearing.
the engineers from shimano have already researched this issue and have come up with their own conclusions in the form of the trinidad DC. in the united states, the standard gold trinidads sell for $300-400 USD, while the trinidad DC's sell for $700-800 USD. the trinidad DC is superior to both the torium and gold trinidad in every way. the DC has a double height anti-reverse roller bearing, it has carbon fiber drag washers that are inpregnated with a pure teflon grease, and it has a spring loaded dog. while it is not possible to bring the toriums and gold trinidads completely up to the standard of the trinidad DC, there are a few small improvments that can be made.
the first improvement that can be made is to upgrade the drag system of the torium and gold trinidad from dartanium to greased carbon fiber. by putting greased carbon fiber in their trinidad DC, shimano has broadcast to the world that greased carbon fiber is superior to greased dartanium. i view this as a final vindication and applaud their decision.
the second improvement is the conversion from a silent "ambassaduer-style" dog to a clicking spring loaded dog. the stock anti-reverse system in the torium and gold trinidad reels is a "sequential" system. the single height anti-reverse roller bearing does all the work until the drag pressure exceeds 18 pounds. at that point, the AR bearing slips and the silent dog locks into position. the dog never engages unless the AR bearing slips. the problem is that some reels are deliberately set to drag settings greater than 18 pounds, or the dartanium drag washers might get sticky and then surge unexpectely to 18 pounds, or the AR bearing itself might fail and start slipping a pressure far less then 18 pounds. it is unfortunately not possible to install a double height AR bearing, so a more reliable spring loaded trinidad DC dog is the next best bet. to prove the reliability of the spring loaded dog, one need only look a the track record of the shimano tld stars and speedmasters.
specifically addressing corrosion of the AR bearing, shimano USA has their pure teflon drag grease that is thinned with a bit of pure teflon oil. it is this product that is added to the AR bearing and inner tube to prevent corrosion. accurate addressed the problem of corrosion by using corrosion x. it is clear that something has to be added to the AR bearings. shimano found out quickly that the AR bearings corrode without something. at one point, i had considered trying to retrofit a double height AR bearing into the side plate, but the cost was prohibitive compared to the $5 cost of a trinidad DC dog and spring.
the driving force behind the design of the gold trinidad MUST have been the desire to have a totally silent reel. someone, somewhere, probably commented that the tld star 15/30 was a great reel but that is was too noisy. when reports of trinidad failures started rolling in, it must have been quite a shock. to this day, there has never been a recall. perhaps this silent AR system is not given the same priority as Toyota brakes..........
the engineers from shimano have already researched this issue and have come up with their own conclusions in the form of the trinidad DC. in the united states, the standard gold trinidads sell for $300-400 USD, while the trinidad DC's sell for $700-800 USD. the trinidad DC is superior to both the torium and gold trinidad in every way. the DC has a double height anti-reverse roller bearing, it has carbon fiber drag washers that are inpregnated with a pure teflon grease, and it has a spring loaded dog. while it is not possible to bring the toriums and gold trinidads completely up to the standard of the trinidad DC, there are a few small improvments that can be made.
the first improvement that can be made is to upgrade the drag system of the torium and gold trinidad from dartanium to greased carbon fiber. by putting greased carbon fiber in their trinidad DC, shimano has broadcast to the world that greased carbon fiber is superior to greased dartanium. i view this as a final vindication and applaud their decision.
the second improvement is the conversion from a silent "ambassaduer-style" dog to a clicking spring loaded dog. the stock anti-reverse system in the torium and gold trinidad reels is a "sequential" system. the single height anti-reverse roller bearing does all the work until the drag pressure exceeds 18 pounds. at that point, the AR bearing slips and the silent dog locks into position. the dog never engages unless the AR bearing slips. the problem is that some reels are deliberately set to drag settings greater than 18 pounds, or the dartanium drag washers might get sticky and then surge unexpectely to 18 pounds, or the AR bearing itself might fail and start slipping a pressure far less then 18 pounds. it is unfortunately not possible to install a double height AR bearing, so a more reliable spring loaded trinidad DC dog is the next best bet. to prove the reliability of the spring loaded dog, one need only look a the track record of the shimano tld stars and speedmasters.
specifically addressing corrosion of the AR bearing, shimano USA has their pure teflon drag grease that is thinned with a bit of pure teflon oil. it is this product that is added to the AR bearing and inner tube to prevent corrosion. accurate addressed the problem of corrosion by using corrosion x. it is clear that something has to be added to the AR bearings. shimano found out quickly that the AR bearings corrode without something. at one point, i had considered trying to retrofit a double height AR bearing into the side plate, but the cost was prohibitive compared to the $5 cost of a trinidad DC dog and spring.
the driving force behind the design of the gold trinidad MUST have been the desire to have a totally silent reel. someone, somewhere, probably commented that the tld star 15/30 was a great reel but that is was too noisy. when reports of trinidad failures started rolling in, it must have been quite a shock. to this day, there has never been a recall. perhaps this silent AR system is not given the same priority as Toyota brakes..........
Hi Alan
Thank you for your valued input i note we are both have the same conclusions and recommendations: common sense plays a big part.
I am currenlty busy doing the newells of mine i mentioned to you. i think for our kind of fishing still the best reels for edibles and sharking especially where guys swim to banks like our shark guys. As you know with some TLC these reels dont suffer any of the negative aspects of the so called newer and improved reels. I am doing some very special work to them at present and am certain they will come out tops on durability as always.
Have a great day Alan.
Jonathan
Thank you for your valued input i note we are both have the same conclusions and recommendations: common sense plays a big part.
I am currenlty busy doing the newells of mine i mentioned to you. i think for our kind of fishing still the best reels for edibles and sharking especially where guys swim to banks like our shark guys. As you know with some TLC these reels dont suffer any of the negative aspects of the so called newer and improved reels. I am doing some very special work to them at present and am certain they will come out tops on durability as always.
Have a great day Alan.
Jonathan
FREE THE FIGHTER
Senior Member
Thanks Alan...And I beleive the Alutecnos Gorilla series have no AR dogs - only an AR bearing but a mighty good one. And they can push masssive drag pressures AND by all accounts very few enter the work shops for repair ... I think ?
Guys i opened my Torium,and found out what failed and caused my reel to go knuckle busters on me.The pawl was eaten up by the dog gear!From what i saw the reason for this is that the only a small fraction of the face of the Pawl arm makes contact with the Dog Gear,Therefore the Dog Gear acts like a saw blade and eats into the Pawl arm!What i did to cure this,was to replace the Pawl Arm,and Spring Load it.I also filed the Dog gear deeper,so that when the Pawl meets it,the entire face makes contact with the gear.I also replaced the AR bearing just for peace of mind.Im now saving up for Carbontex washers.
Hi Nemesis
Pls also just check if you dont have the bearing fitted at the base of the driveshaft in the frame that the bush is not worn as when you retrieve the ratchet plate with pull away from the dog each time you turn the handle.
When fitting a spring take care the presuure is not too strong the dog should not run up against the ratchet plate constantly but the pressure be just suffcient to ensure positive engagement; else it will wear away again.
Chow
Pls also just check if you dont have the bearing fitted at the base of the driveshaft in the frame that the bush is not worn as when you retrieve the ratchet plate with pull away from the dog each time you turn the handle.
When fitting a spring take care the presuure is not too strong the dog should not run up against the ratchet plate constantly but the pressure be just suffcient to ensure positive engagement; else it will wear away again.
Chow