Hiya Guys, [b]I have for some time been toying
- Thread starter Trophy
- Start date
I recently spoke with the local agent for Accurate in S.A. about a potential agreement, and he was very excited about some interesting design specs on their reels:
Twin drag - a set of drag washers either side of the spool.
The motivation is to apply even pressure on either side of the spool, therefore preventing imbalances on the spool shaft if heavy pressure is applied by the line, at the further end of the spool, away from the single sided drag washers.
gmmf
Twin drag - a set of drag washers either side of the spool.
The motivation is to apply even pressure on either side of the spool, therefore preventing imbalances on the spool shaft if heavy pressure is applied by the line, at the further end of the spool, away from the single sided drag washers.
gmmf
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Does anyone have a photo of the drag assembly from a Saltiga?
I had a look at the drawings/parts diagram on the Daiwa website again and it isn't clear but although they have a washer under the spool it is also possible that it is not a drag washer. If one of the shown parts were long enough it may operate differently to how I thought. I am still of the opinion that the design is inferior but if I could prove my opinion wrong I would be the first to apologise to all Saltiga owners. After all I am a Daiwa fan!!!
As we have already somewhat hijacked Trophys thread please post pics on a new thread.
I had a look at the drawings/parts diagram on the Daiwa website again and it isn't clear but although they have a washer under the spool it is also possible that it is not a drag washer. If one of the shown parts were long enough it may operate differently to how I thought. I am still of the opinion that the design is inferior but if I could prove my opinion wrong I would be the first to apologise to all Saltiga owners. After all I am a Daiwa fan!!!
As we have already somewhat hijacked Trophys thread please post pics on a new thread.
Whaler
Sealiner
OK, Here is how a finnor works, when you pull line off the reel the maingear turns while all the steel plates remain stationary, thus causing friction with the drag washers which in turn are jammed inbetween them by the compressed half moon washers and the star. So to answer trophy's question, yes all the washers work at the same time aplying the exact same amount of pressure to the main gear causing it to turn slower(drag) the smaller washer under the main gear has nothing to do with the drag, it's only funtion is to alow the maingear to turn smoothly without toutching the antireverse gear, so the more surface area you have causing friction the better your drag will be, the down side of this is that the larger the surface are of the drag is the more start up inertia you will have.
here are some pics on how i came to my conclusion,i striped the reel and re asembled it without the outer cover to see what actually turns and what does not.
here are some pics on how i came to my conclusion,i striped the reel and re asembled it without the outer cover to see what actually turns and what does not.
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Hiya Guys,
One thing we are good at on Sealine is getting to the bottom of things...sometimes a little off topic!
Whaler thanks for the effort thats exactly the kind of info I was after. I was trying to figure all that in my head and with my pea brain...kept getting lost!
What I kept getting caught up on was the small washer between the ratchet and Main Gear! What you suggested makes sense.
Thanks to all the other info...great read!
What an amazing source of information we have in the members of Sealine...WORLD CLASS!
One thing we are good at on Sealine is getting to the bottom of things...sometimes a little off topic!
Whaler thanks for the effort thats exactly the kind of info I was after. I was trying to figure all that in my head and with my pea brain...kept getting lost!
What I kept getting caught up on was the small washer between the ratchet and Main Gear! What you suggested makes sense.
Thanks to all the other info...great read!
What an amazing source of information we have in the members of Sealine...WORLD CLASS!
Sorry Whaler I disagree.
If the main gear is turning and the ratchet plate is stationery then the washer between them is an integral part of the drag.
The ratchet plate is what stops the gear from being pushed off the end of the shaft when pressure is applied to the drag washers. That means that the washer under the gear has the same pressure applied to it as the washers in the gear. And because the gear is turning while the ratchet plate is stationery there is friction between the gear, washer and ratchet plate. The differance is that this washer is smaller than the others yet it still has the same pressure applied to it as all the other washers. If this washer was only to seperate the gear and ratchet plate they would make it out of steel. If you disagree with me replace the white washer in your finnor with a steel washer and see if the drag still operates. I caution you that if you do this experiment you will probably damage the gear when it tries to turn against a metal washer under pressure.
If the main gear is turning and the ratchet plate is stationery then the washer between them is an integral part of the drag.
The ratchet plate is what stops the gear from being pushed off the end of the shaft when pressure is applied to the drag washers. That means that the washer under the gear has the same pressure applied to it as the washers in the gear. And because the gear is turning while the ratchet plate is stationery there is friction between the gear, washer and ratchet plate. The differance is that this washer is smaller than the others yet it still has the same pressure applied to it as all the other washers. If this washer was only to seperate the gear and ratchet plate they would make it out of steel. If you disagree with me replace the white washer in your finnor with a steel washer and see if the drag still operates. I caution you that if you do this experiment you will probably damage the gear when it tries to turn against a metal washer under pressure.
Whaler
Sealiner
FLUKE wrote:
Hi Fluke
i'l strip it again tonight and check the point your trying to make, the washer on the finnor is plastic and if it took the same heat as the rest of the drag it should have been melted by now as the other washers were when i stripped the reel to fit carbontex, the only washer that was fine was the plastic one, any way this is a cool topic and i'l defenitly let you guys now tomorrow, i dont no how i'm going to measure it but il make a plan.
Hi Fluke
i'l strip it again tonight and check the point your trying to make, the washer on the finnor is plastic and if it took the same heat as the rest of the drag it should have been melted by now as the other washers were when i stripped the reel to fit carbontex, the only washer that was fine was the plastic one, any way this is a cool topic and i'l defenitly let you guys now tomorrow, i dont no how i'm going to measure it but il make a plan.
Hi Whaler, The washer may be PTFE (Teflon) which is used for Steam pipes, high temperature seals etc. It can normally handle several hundred degrees celcius. It is also used as guide pads where it offers a smooth surface for another part to run on without requiring much or any lubrication. It is also generally white in colour. Teflon would certainly be high on my list of products to make that particular washer out of.
kitefisher
Sealiner
I am certainly no expert on drags and their mechanics,but this is just so interesting,that I cant help checking back every now and again.I must agree with Fluke on this one,my reasoning is as follows.When you apply drag by turning the star,you are effectively "pulling" the anti-reverse gear into the main gear,or vice versa,pushing the main gear down onto the anti-reverse gear.
The washer inbetween must come into play,as the anti-reverse gear remains stationary, whilst the main gear is turning causing friction between them .This is now when a fish is peeling line off.
To illustrate my point we may want to refer to alantani"s report on the Trinidad 30 rebuild. In his findings he mentions that on certain Trinidads which would only push out 15lbs of drag with a Standard Carbon fibre drag washer below the main gear,(thickness- 1.14mm) he would replace the washer below the main gear with a Penn ht 100#6 113h washer(from a Penn 4/0 Senator),this washer has a thickness of 1.23mm(somewhat thicker, in context),and this would immediately up the reel's drag to 20lbs.
This may serve as evidence that the little neglected and often overlooked bugger below the main gear deserves our future attention,and is indeed an integral part in the Trini/Torium drag -system
Keep it going guys,very nice topic for a change,and @Whaler thanks for your efforts on stripping etc
Cheers
http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=3907&forum_id=62
The washer inbetween must come into play,as the anti-reverse gear remains stationary, whilst the main gear is turning causing friction between them .This is now when a fish is peeling line off.
To illustrate my point we may want to refer to alantani"s report on the Trinidad 30 rebuild. In his findings he mentions that on certain Trinidads which would only push out 15lbs of drag with a Standard Carbon fibre drag washer below the main gear,(thickness- 1.14mm) he would replace the washer below the main gear with a Penn ht 100#6 113h washer(from a Penn 4/0 Senator),this washer has a thickness of 1.23mm(somewhat thicker, in context),and this would immediately up the reel's drag to 20lbs.
This may serve as evidence that the little neglected and often overlooked bugger below the main gear deserves our future attention,and is indeed an integral part in the Trini/Torium drag -system
Keep it going guys,very nice topic for a change,and @Whaler thanks for your efforts on stripping etc
Cheers
http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=3907&forum_id=62
kitefisher wrote:
interestinger and interestinger!
somewhere, there is a mathematical formula that can predict the drag pressure generated by a drag stack based on the size of the washer and the number of washers in the stack. it most certainly involves calculus. um, i had a full year of college calculus. i hated every moment of it, forgot it the day after i finished the class and have never used it since.
drag washers come in stacks of varying heights. the simplest stack is a "1+1" arrangement. you don't get alot of drag out of this arrangement unless the drag washers are particularly large.
the next arrangement is a "1+3." this is what you find in the smaller trinidads and toriums. you have one drag washer underneath the main gear and three drag washers inside.
the next most common stack is a "1+5." this photo is missing the last metal drag washer, but that's ok. you see the pattern.
you've seen this stack before. what's this one? is it a "1+3" orientation, or more?
if you guessed "1+5," then you guessed correctly. the drag washers in the photo above most likely have a fiberglass core that behaves like a tabbed metal washer. the carbon fiber is simply "stuck" to those fiberglass "washers."
the most basic "drag" system is a piece of carbon fiber wedged between two metal plates. one of the metal plates will be stationary and one will be in motion. a free-floating double sided carbon fiber washer will "stick" to the metal surface with the higher coeffecient of friction. yup, the carbon fiber will stick to the surface that is stickier and slide against the surface that is not. this also applies to multi-stack drag systems.
there's no telling which metal washer the carbon fiber drag washer will "stick" to, and functionally it does not matter. now for the next question,
it does not. here is the modified drag stack for the daiwa 900h. the original "1+3" drag and metal washers were pretty thick so there was no way to easily turn this into a "1+5" stack. it actually required new carbon fiber drag washers AND new thinner metal washers. it is important to note that the "1+3" drag stack delivered a mere 20 pounds of drag which was way too low for this reel. the newer "1+5" drag stack delivered 35 pounds of drag.
the important message here is that each of the carbon fiber drag washers inside the main gear contributed approximately 7 pounds of drag to the total. the small drag washer under the main gear contributed virtually nothing. but most importantly, the small drag washer under the main gear did not appear to limit the drag range.
there is probably a calculus equation that would explain all of this........ alan
drag washers come in stacks of varying heights. the simplest stack is a "1+1" arrangement. you don't get alot of drag out of this arrangement unless the drag washers are particularly large.
the next arrangement is a "1+3." this is what you find in the smaller trinidads and toriums. you have one drag washer underneath the main gear and three drag washers inside.
the next most common stack is a "1+5." this photo is missing the last metal drag washer, but that's ok. you see the pattern.
you've seen this stack before. what's this one? is it a "1+3" orientation, or more?
if you guessed "1+5," then you guessed correctly. the drag washers in the photo above most likely have a fiberglass core that behaves like a tabbed metal washer. the carbon fiber is simply "stuck" to those fiberglass "washers."
the most basic "drag" system is a piece of carbon fiber wedged between two metal plates. one of the metal plates will be stationary and one will be in motion. a free-floating double sided carbon fiber washer will "stick" to the metal surface with the higher coeffecient of friction. yup, the carbon fiber will stick to the surface that is stickier and slide against the surface that is not. this also applies to multi-stack drag systems.
there's no telling which metal washer the carbon fiber drag washer will "stick" to, and functionally it does not matter. now for the next question,
it does not. here is the modified drag stack for the daiwa 900h. the original "1+3" drag and metal washers were pretty thick so there was no way to easily turn this into a "1+5" stack. it actually required new carbon fiber drag washers AND new thinner metal washers. it is important to note that the "1+3" drag stack delivered a mere 20 pounds of drag which was way too low for this reel. the newer "1+5" drag stack delivered 35 pounds of drag.
the important message here is that each of the carbon fiber drag washers inside the main gear contributed approximately 7 pounds of drag to the total. the small drag washer under the main gear contributed virtually nothing. but most importantly, the small drag washer under the main gear did not appear to limit the drag range.
there is probably a calculus equation that would explain all of this........ alan
kitefisher
Sealiner
Thank you for taking time out to explain Alan,as always your explanation is very effective.I understand the basics of it(minus the calculus,lol),the only part of the puzzle that I dont quite get(bar the calculus/maths,yet again) is the relevance of this statement made by you in a previous post.
I can only assume then that in certain reel-drag systems,the small dragwasher below the main gear,plays an integral role and yet in others it dont,depending on the design.The Trinidads and Toriums being of such design,where it does indeed play a role.
I quote you:
'''i had noted that the drag pressure in a few trinidad's maxed out at 15#'s of drag using the thinner carbontex drag washer under the gear. by substituting the thicker penn ht-100 #6-113h, i was able to get 20#'s or better. so that's what i do now. it's no big deal for me, but might prove an inconvenience for you. this is not a consistent problem, so go with the stock carbontex drag washers first, check the drags, and then consider changing the washer under the gear if there is an issue."""
Thanking you in advance
I can only assume then that in certain reel-drag systems,the small dragwasher below the main gear,plays an integral role and yet in others it dont,depending on the design.The Trinidads and Toriums being of such design,where it does indeed play a role.
I quote you:
'''i had noted that the drag pressure in a few trinidad's maxed out at 15#'s of drag using the thinner carbontex drag washer under the gear. by substituting the thicker penn ht-100 #6-113h, i was able to get 20#'s or better. so that's what i do now. it's no big deal for me, but might prove an inconvenience for you. this is not a consistent problem, so go with the stock carbontex drag washers first, check the drags, and then consider changing the washer under the gear if there is an issue."""
Thanking you in advance
ah, yes, i know what you're talking about. take a careful look at this photo.....
several others had noted the same problem. with the thinner carbontex drag washer under the main gear, the drag is limited to 15 pounds. with the thicker penn drag washer under the gear, there is no such limitation. what i think is going on is that the thinner carbontex drag washer allows "metal to metal" contact somewhere in the drag stack. once that happens, there is no way to increase the drag range.
see the square ridge on the drive shaft? i think the metal washer is coming in contact with it. that is the only way that a thicker penn washer would make a difference.
several others had noted the same problem. with the thinner carbontex drag washer under the main gear, the drag is limited to 15 pounds. with the thicker penn drag washer under the gear, there is no such limitation. what i think is going on is that the thinner carbontex drag washer allows "metal to metal" contact somewhere in the drag stack. once that happens, there is no way to increase the drag range.
see the square ridge on the drive shaft? i think the metal washer is coming in contact with it. that is the only way that a thicker penn washer would make a difference.