Hiya Guys, [b]I have for some time been toying

[kitefisher]

@ Whaler,Ditto here on the maths classes,I honestly think that algebra must be the universal cure for insomnia,lol

@Alantani, I would like ,like, I am sure, many members would, to get this under the belt.Are you saying that the "friction coefficient" of the washer(not sure if we should call it a"dragwasher" per se anymore) beneath the main gear,is not of relevance,and that only the thickness is of importance.?I can understand that in your case in point as above, the thickness of the Penn washer allowed the drag-stack to be pushed further away from the square ridge,prohibiting the tabbed/eared-washer from coming into possible contact with the square ridge,Which would disallow the maximum friction between metal and carbontex.

However,when looking at the photo,I see a ridge on the first metal washer,which coincides with the raised/elevated "ridge" on the inside of the maingear.Would it not be possible that this was where the "metal to metal" contact occured.

The markings in green illustrates what I am refering to .

Once again thank you for your valued input here on Sealine.

 

[alantani]

i was thinking of the top metal washer against the top of the square of the drive shaft, but i never stopped to take a close enough look. i do know that it does make a difference in some reels. alan

 

[FLUKE]

@ Alan, you mention that the washer below the gear doesn't make a differance yet in the pictures of upgrades it is always changed?
Have you ever tried changing everything but that washer and then measured the drag? The drag force would certainly be better than the original drag washers but would it be as good as when the bottom washer is replaced as well?

If that washer under the gear has no significance then why doesn't someone replace it with a piece of Card board or cut a washer out of some tupperware or a Margerine container? Then measure the drag force and let's see if that washer doesn't make a difference.

 

[FLUKE]

@ Alan that is an interesting observation about the Trinidad with carbontex.
I have never seen one with carbontex fitted so I can't comment on the dimensions.
However, if your theory is correct there should be distinct marks on the drag washer from it rubbing on the gear or shaft, depending on what it's bottoming out against. Having seen how thin the Dartanium washers in a Trini are I find it hard to beleive that Carbontex is thinner. If carbontex isn't thinner then your theory would seem unlikely and the effectiveness of that small washer would account for the increase in drag pressure.

 

[Whaler]

FLUKE wrote:

@ Alan, you mention that the washer below the gear doesn't make a differance yet in the pictures of upgrades it is always changed?
Have you ever tried changing everything but that washer and then measured the drag? The drag force would certainly be better than the original drag washers but would it be as good as when the bottom washer is replaced as well?

If that washer under the gear has no significance then why doesn't someone replace it with a piece of Card board or cut a washer out of some tupperware or a Margerine container? Then measure the drag force and let's see if that washer doesn't make a difference.

Hi FLUKE, I service quite a lot of reels and i have never found any wear on the bottom washer, and that is why i said that it does not have mutch to do with the drag, i have a torium here that i'm doing a upgrade on and i'm going to do exactly what you said and leave the original washer in and then measure the drag on my digital scale, and then fit it and measure again, i'l let you now tomorrow.

Cheers

Whaler

 

[kitefisher]

@Whaler,it would be very interesting indeed,Do I understand you correctly:

You measure the drag as it is .

You leave the dragstack as it is,and only fit a new carbontex washer below the maingear.

You measure drag again,Then fit the "full Monty" Carbontex and compare.

It would be very interesting if you could take a digital vernier and measure the thickness's of both the Original and Carbontex washer(below maingear) in the experiment.

Thank you in advance for your efforts.

 

[alantani]

i had a couple of reels in a row that were limited to 15# of drag with a full set of carbontex washers.  by changing out the washer under the gear to a penn washer, i was able to get more drag.  since them, i've always ordered just the carbontex washers that go inside the gear and match them up with a penn washer underneath.  i have lots of  penn washers. so it was easy to do, and to keep on doing.  it was very simple, really!  alan

 

[AndriesH]

:doh What method is used when testing the drag on a reel ??

 

[alantani]

i just tie off the line to a spring scale and pull.........

 

[AndriesH]

Thanks Alan.
I'll be playing around in my workshop to see if I can't make a little jig for testing drag that may help to ensure repeatability of test conditions.

Maybe it makes a difference, maybe not?

Looking forward to more of your handiwork.
Regards
AndriesH

 

[kitefisher]

alantani wrote:

i had a couple of reels in a row that were limited to 15# of drag with a full set of carbontex washers.  by changing out the washer under the gear to a penn washer, i was able to get more drag.  since them, i've always ordered just the carbontex washers that go inside the gear and match them up with a penn washer underneath.  i have lots of  penn washers. so it was easy to do, and to keep on doing.  it was very simple, really!  alan

Thank you, very interesting.I have a suspicion that Whalers result may be similar.

@Andries,it would indeed be useful to have a "consistent,bench-type drag-measuring device".Looking forward to it.

 

[FLUKE]

Thanks Whaler that's a lot of effort you're going to. We'll wait and see the result. It will be interesting as Alan's test shows that the carbontex washer doesn't yield very good results on the Trini & Torium, when compared to the Penn washer. However maybe the Carbontex will still yield better results than the original washer?

 

[AndriesH]

.

 

[AndriesH]

Super scientific analysis with this type of setup should give you two readings:
1/ The "release" drag setting, when the spool breaks from stationary into motion.
2/ A lower reading, when the spool is in motion. (keep cranking the handle at consistent speed)

 

[kitefisher]

FLUKE wrote:

Thanks Whaler that's a lot of effort you're going to. We'll wait and see the result. It will be interesting as Alan's test shows that the carbontex washer doesn't yield very good results on the Trini & Torium, when compared to the Penn washer. However maybe the Carbontex will still yield better results than the original washer?

Ditto,mana to Darius for the efforts.

@Fluke,an increase from 15lbs to 20lbs drag,is effectively a 33,3% increase,which is rather substantial.What boggles me is, if it is only the increase in the thickness(1.14mm to1.23mm) between Carbontex and Penn washer,as per the tutorial,or whether friction surface/type plays a role ,and to what extent,if indeed so.

@Andries,Your model looks perfect,lol,maybe just make a bigger cranking handle,(joke) for the more serious reels,lol.

 

[AndriesH]

Do you guys really think that thickness of a drag washer makes the difference?

IMO, (2c) surface area and material friction properties make the difference.

Brake callipers on a F1 vehicle are 2000% bigger than on my Ford and I use Ferodo, while those guys use cintered carbon materials. Much higher braking capacity with added benefit of better heat dissipation (not relevant here)

The Penn product has different properties to the carbontex and to leather, each with its own place in the works.

Also, by modifying / increasing the drag ability of a reel, you are coming much closer to the design limitations considered by the manufacturer. At some point, you surely are going to bend a shaft or rip the reel of its reel bracket / seat.

Very few of us (myself excluded) have the full skill set required to successfully subdue a monster that may require such technical superiority in a reel as being described here.
Trophy (respect to similar anglers) for one not only has the reel, the rod, the line and the end tackle, but also the skills to successfully put it all together at the end of the day.

 

[AndriesH]

It may actually be worth while building one of those contraptions.
If you fix a pin or clamp into the pillars under the line winder, this thing could also be used to test lines & knots etc.

 

[Trophy]

AndriesH wrote:

Do you guys really think that thickness of a drag washer makes the difference?

IMO, (2c) surface area and material friction properties make the difference.

Very few of us (myself excluded) have the full skill set required to successfully subdue a monster that may require such technical superiority in a reel as being described here.
Trophy (respect to similar anglers) for one not only has the reel, the rod, the line and the end tackle, but also the skills to successfully put it all together at the end of the day.

Hiya Andries,

Thicker washers should assist the drag pressure as it would thicken the stack. The when turning the star drag would apply 'more' pressure onto the washers. I know that the leather washers I use in my TLD reels are slightly thicker than standard and this results in fewer turns of my star drag to apply drag. Just remember that if you go to thick then the top of the drag stack will rub against the side casing.

Regarding the fighting of the fish using the reel, rod, line and angler...I agree fully. The only reason I was trying to understand what compnents in the complete drag system do what is because I recently had a drag totally fail during a good 600m pull. I ended up with prob only 20% drag pressure and had to thumb the spool.

When I stripped the reel to find out what went wrong the only fault I found was that the small bottom washer under the Main Gear had failed. The entire washer went VERY oval on both the inner and outer dimensions. I fitted a new was and the problem was solved.

This got me thinking about the drag stack and how it actually worked. I also wanted to know if there were different fuctions to the washers under 'reeling' and 'fighting' drag.

As I said before my non mechanical pea brain could not figure this one out so I called on Sealine knowledge to find an answer.

What I DO know is that that single smaller washer under the Main Gear plays a bigger role than what we give it credit for??

 

 

 

[neilg]

This is turning out to be very interesting !!!!! It's just too damn much to read !
Can someone (at the end of this) please summarise it for me so that I can understand ...

 

[FLUKE]

Trophy wrote:

AndriesH wrote:

Do you guys really think that thickness of a drag washer makes the difference?

IMO, (2c) surface area and material friction properties make the difference.

Very few of us (myself excluded) have the full skill set required to successfully subdue a monster that may require such technical superiority in a reel as being described here.
Trophy (respect to similar anglers) for one not only has the reel, the rod, the line and the end tackle, but also the skills to successfully put it all together at the end of the day.

Hiya Andries,

Thicker washers should assist the drag pressure as it would thicken the stack. The when turning the star drag would apply 'more' pressure onto the washers. I know that the leather washers I use in my TLD reels are slightly thicker than standard and this results in fewer turns of my star drag to apply drag. Just remember that if you go to thick then the top of the drag stack will rub against the side casing.

Regarding the fighting of the fish using the reel, rod, line and angler...I agree fully. The only reason I was trying to understand what compnents in the complete drag system do what is because I recently had a drag totally fail during a good 600m pull. I ended up with prob only 20% drag pressure and had to thumb the spool.

When I stripped the reel to find out what went wrong the only fault I found was that the small bottom washer under the Main Gear had failed. The entire washer went VERY oval on both the inner and outer dimensions. I fitted a new was and the problem was solved.

This got me thinking about the drag stack and how it actually worked. I also wanted to know if there were different fuctions to the washers under 'reeling' and 'fighting' drag.

As I said before my non mechanical pea brain could not figure this one out so I called on Sealine knowledge to find an answer.

What I DO know is that that single smaller washer under the Main Gear plays a bigger role than what we give it credit for??

 

 

I rest my case so that I can get back to work LOL.

 

@ Andries With regard to drag capacity testing I'm going to skip this debate but here are a few questions to consider.

1. Does the amount of line on the reel effect the drag force. To pull 1mtr off of a  full spool require maybe 10 turns of the spool but when the spool is empty and the diametre reduced it may take 15 turns to release 1mtr of line, therefore the drag has worked 50% more (if the line is pulled off at the same speed).

2. Does an increase in the speed with which the line is pulled off of the reel increase the drag force/capacity?