I just wanted to highlght a few points of my sessi

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Basspro

Senior Member
I just wanted to highlght a few points of my session this weekend at Emmarentia - 

I had noticed the in thing or the craze these days on most lakes is to use a bait boat or canoe - even for the smaller in-land waters like Emma etc....I still say it makes for a lazy angler....another thing is the 4 rod set-up craze.

Now to my left were guys sitting for the day, bait boat at the ready and 2 set-ups....4 rods each. Now for a water of that size I don't see the need for a 4 rod set-up, it just does not warrant it. Plain greed to me. I have even fished 2 rods and still manage a good session half the time, I own a few specimen rods but I apply logic & common sense depending on the type/size of dam I fish and size of fish I'm after.

The bait issue- they boat  (ALL 8 RODS) out tons of bait and boilies for a day session- lasting only a few hours, logic tells me apply your bait according to the length of the session, an overnight session differs from a session lasting a few hours for goodness sake. Then they left without a take-THANK GOODNESS. The following morning I walked around their swim and they left kilo's and kilo's of groundbait and boilies on the bank .... maybe for the rats and birds I'm not sure. That gave me the idea of how much they really had and the quantity they boated out.

I mean so much bait for a few hrs is not using common sense guys .... Specimen carp fishing is not about great looking gear and tons of bait for a few hrs...Some "wannabe specimen anglers' need to re-look at their strategies and fishing style"

I prefer casting to the horizon if I must and bait up and work for my fish on these smaller waters, I can also use my boat but its really a waste of my time.

Yes I know: To each his own, but some anglers need to attend carp school before buying any gear.

 

 

 
 
S

Snytjie

New member
Basspro,

I completely agree. Although some guys probably go to smaller venues like Emma to test their (newly aquired) gear, this was obviously not such an occasion. Altough I do not know these specific anglers or their practices, I also often get worried about the employed bait preparation principals that other such individuals use, especially since they obviously have little intuitive perception of carp behaviour. Were all the masses of bait prepared properly so as to not cause any harm? Also, to leave large amounts on the bank is not responsible: first of all it gives the perception of not caring about the state in which you leave your angling environment, and secondly it is definitely not clear what the effect of our baits could be on eg ducks or geese eating a lot of it.

Another thing which also bothers me a lot, relates to another smallish venue which is seeing a lot of particle bait going into it, namely Klaserie. Now I DO NOT wish to reopen the argument of the nutritional values of particles here, but it is interesting to see how the fish in Klaserie tends to not become bigger. For example, if you look at the particular fish which is currently the web record and which was caught by a number of anglers over the past two years, it is obvious that it is not growing. Also, there are a lot of fish that were caught at 17-19kg over the past two years which should have been over 20kg now given Klaserie's traditional growth rates, but despite the large number of very qualified anglers that frequent the place none are caught. I think they did not grow as they should have, and I think the tons of particles that goes into that smallish venue has an influence. Are we sure that fish do not seek out the easier but less nutritional meals (loads of particles) at the cost of the harder but more nutritional ones (crustatians, shellfoods)?

As for the use of boats, canoes etc, I think that one should be ethical (for the lack of a better term) rather that "greedy" as you put it. Having a background in the hunting industry, I know what it looks like when people 'over- technologize' a sport such as angling, so to speak. I also fail to see how you can feel proud of overpowering a fish rather than outsmarting it...
 
B

Bilz

Member
Basspro,

Maybe you should of had a chat with them and given them some advise.

Calling fellow anglers 'wannabe specimen anglers' and 'greedy' is not called for. All specimen anglers need to start somewhere. Specimen anglers only become better by reading forums like these or by getting tips on strategies from other fellow anglers.

And this is where your knowledge could of assited them for future trips.

Personally I don't see a problem with bait boats and canoes (I use it as well). On smaller venues, bait boats work like a charm.

 

 
 
B

Basspro

Senior Member
I said "each to his own" - bait boats or 4 rod set-ups....I have my opinion about them and anglers application and that's it.

I went over and greeted because I had to see where they were boating their lines to so I don't cast over theirs..they an unfriendly bunch so I don't think they'd appreciate advice. I don't freely give advice to anyone that I'm not fishing with or that don't ask for it - I did it once and it turned out as a bad experience ....... so yeah to each his own.

4 rods per angler on a small venue is greed mate - U need to understand there are not hundreds of open swims so 4 rods is overkill, casting or baiting lines out all over the show is not on.
 
B

Bilz

Member
I agree with most of your sentiments and have the same opinion with 4 rod setups. And I'm sorry if I'm stepping on your toes. But let's try and keep the name calling out....

Had I been the angler next to you...I would of valued your advise.

 

 
 
O

Osie

Senior Member
Hi Basspro

As a papgooier I would like to ask you a question. I've seen on numerous times that specimen anglesr complain about the 4 rod setup. What is wrong with 4 rods instead of 3?

Now you can probably notice that this is a real papgooier question because the more rods we can get in the water the better ::S,  but I am trying to start learning the specimen facet bit by bit and would like to know what the problem is.

Is it mainly due to the amount of feeding per rod or what?

Sorry if I hi-jack
 
Q

quinton.gindra

New member
Basspro I am sure u intentions are good and no one should take exception to what u say as this is just your opinion. With the rod setup as I have seen myself as I frequent a smaller dam and we normally adapt our setup to how many guys we are we we stand as some pegs do not have huge space etc. But I have fished on a peg that had huge space alone and used a 4 rod setup and then 2 weeks later with 3 guys on the same peg we all fished 2 rod setup. So yes i would aggree that we need to adjust it depending on the waters and not over pressureize the dam as this also leads to problems with the fish stocks.As for a bait boat it depends . On smaller dams I still use a canoe just to drop my lines so my bait presentation is correct but on bigger dams I use an inflatable. I think if we call ourselves specimen fishermen then we are not the same as BIG CARP FISHERMEN . Specimen fisherman is about the protection of the speci and not how large the fish are but we also do catch large fish. I think that is the distinction.
 
Q

quinton.gindra

New member
As for baiting I have done both . I have baited like 50kg but only in a big dam. In smaller dams and even now in bigger dams I only bait small like 2 kgs at a time and topup once a day with another 2kgs if I have not had a bite . Once the fish are on the take I only do handfulls when I take new lines in. The massive baiting does not work for me. I have tried it and have only caught undesired fish species. So I have never done it again.
 
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Basspro

Senior Member
No stepping on my toes guys - no offence taken either. I knew what this tread is going to do when I wrote it. Osie all I'm saying is adjust according to the situation - 4 rods is fine on big waters and if U alone on a smaller venue if U prefer but it does put the fish under extreme pressure and U need to be considerate towards other anglers, the more lines U have out does up your chances of a catch ratio but would not necassary mean "quality fish" -I am downgrading to 2 rods on my next session to experiment how well or bad I'll do against my bud with 3 rods..we'll see !!!

Guys we can interpret any way we want but we all apply our own principals and hey of U choose 4 rods/tons of bait and a canoe/b boat on a pond ........ that is your choice. Just don't leave your left over bait on the bank ...... If it was my lake I'd ban such anglers !!!

As for me and my fishing - I'll apply what I think is best.
 
S

Snytjie

New member
Basspro wrote:
Just don't leave your left over bait on the bank ...... If it was my lake I'd ban such anglers !!!
Click to expand...
 

I hope that specimen angling is about conservation of both the species as well as the habitat/angling water. This does not only mean the environmental side, but also the symbiotic side. Everybody knows about Wemmerpan and the banning of angling there, mostly driven by the rowing club. Emma has just such a club. You act like this, i.e. an overdose of activity/tackle on a small venue plus littering on the bank, it will not be long before the opportunity to fish there will be taken away...
 
M

MadCarper

Sealiner
Gotta agree with you BP. 4 rods at Emma is overkill. As you rightly pointed out, you can get good results with only 2 or 3 rods... in fact, with 4 rods at a busy venue like Emma, you'll probably blank or have a bad result, as the carp on your spot will be spooked by all the lines...

Same with bait. And I think there are still big gaps in many anglers' knowledge base... day sessions specimen-style can be quite difficult, and the first lesson to be learnt is to be very careful with the amounts of bait you put in. I bet you the spot the guys next to you overfed that day, would have been very productive the next day. but by then no-one would be fishing it, cos its Monday... !

I would say there is still ALOT to do in terms of helping new guys build up their knowledge. To me it seems those guys you mentioned, probably read somewhere that experienced anglers uses a 4-rod setup at DD, and thought that is the in-thing..so now they fish like that everywhere...

I my opinion alot more carp seminars/clinics is needed. And more articles on subjects like the above should be published. Or what?
 
C

chris_leon

New member
I have seen the same thing first hand. I did an overnighter at Emma around a month and a half ago and the same gents you speak of had also been piling in the bait with their 4 rod setup and "Oorlog Boilies" and bait boat.

Look I'll hide no facts, as i used a canoe the same session. But again based on swim choice, where i was placing baits, and range etc etc.

There is no problem with the use of a canoe or bait boat. It is the angler using these watercraft that are the nuisance factor. Whether it be by being inconsiderate to towards other anglers by using 4 rods on a small water for not even a 12 hour session, or by going over your lines with his bait boat.

These so called Specimen Anglers are really conventional anglers, with the sole goal of catching a big fish - WHATEVER THE COST!!!!

That my friends is the difference between these so called "specimen Anglers" and then the real ones, the ones that nobody likes, because we're quiet and dont make noise on the bank, because we wear fancy camo outfits like retired soldiers,because we soft spoken and sit down and dont make bond fires in the open, just because we dont part with our valued secrets and advice to every Jan & Piet who asks for it.

You all see now why "true specimen anglers" are almost like the Illuminati, as our information on baits, venues, tactics etc are so highly guarded and protected. And no, not for the sake of the angler being "selfish" and being able to show off the biggest photo in the group, but rather for the safety and protection of our much loved specimen, the humble Cyprinus Carpio.....
 
F

Flashback

Senior Member
Snytjie wrote:
Basspro,

I completely agree. Although some guys probably go to smaller venues like Emma to test their (newly aquired) gear, this was obviously not such an occasion. Altough I do not know these specific anglers or their practices, I also often get worried about the employed bait preparation principals that other such individuals use, especially since they obviously have little intuitive perception of carp behaviour. Were all the masses of bait prepared properly so as to not cause any harm? Also, to leave large amounts on the bank is not responsible: first of all it gives the perception of not caring about the state in which you leave your angling environment, and secondly it is definitely not clear what the effect of our baits could be on eg ducks or geese eating a lot of it.

Another thing which also bothers me a lot, relates to another smallish venue which is seeing a lot of particle bait going into it, namely Klaserie. Now I DO NOT wish to reopen the argument of the nutritional values of particles here, but it is interesting to see how the fish in Klaserie tends to not become bigger. For example, if you look at the particular fish which is currently the web record and which was caught by a number of anglers over the past two years, it is obvious that it is not growing. Also, there are a lot of fish that were caught at 17-19kg over the past two years which should have been over 20kg now given Klaserie's traditional growth rates, but despite the large number of very qualified anglers that frequent the place none are caught. I think they did not grow as they should have, and I think the tons of particles that goes into that smallish venue has an influence. Are we sure that fish do not seek out the easier but less nutritional meals (loads of particles) at the cost of the harder but more nutritional ones (crustatians, shellfoods)?

As for the use of boats, canoes etc, I think that one should be ethical (for the lack of a better term) rather that "greedy" as you put it. Having a background in the hunting industry, I know what it looks like when people 'over- technologize' a sport such as angling, so to speak. I also fail to see how you can feel proud of overpowering a fish rather than outsmarting it...
Click to expand...
As die vis in groot Klaserie nie groei nie agv die baie particals in die dam nie,  hoekom kon ek Jan n karp gevang het in Klaserie K P teen 13.5kg en Jul die selfde jaar toe vang ek die selfde karp teen 15.8kg? Dit is n baie klein venue en word swaar gevoer en gehengel?? Ek dink daar is ander redes vir die groter vis daar wat nie gevang word nie!!

Hengel self 4 stokke maar mens moet nie selfsugtig wees by n klein venue nie, begin met 4 as jy eerste of alleen daar is maar soos die ouens om jou begin hengel dan haal jy maar stokke uit!!

Wat die aas op die kant los betref, dit is uiters ongemanierd en dit is ouens wat mens juis nie by jou dam wil he nie!! Mens tel die laaste stukkie ding op voor jy loop!! Ek probeer om my plek altyd skoner te los as wat ek hom gekry het!!
 
B

Basspro

Senior Member
Good to see so many views on this topic - Next time I'm around Emma and I see the same guys fishing there I will approach them and ask about the bait they left behind .... they might take exception to it but I'm not going with the aim of making trouble - we all fish the lake from time to time & someone is going to spoil it for everyone ..... Hopefully that won't happen.

Keep the posts coming - contribute to how you think we should manage our waters / other specimen anglers etc....etc... !!!
 
B

Bilz

Member
chris_leon wrote:
That my friends is the difference between these so called "specimen Anglers" and then the real ones, the ones that nobody likes, because we're quiet and dont make noise on the bank, because we wear fancy camo outfits like retired soldiers,because we soft spoken and sit down and dont make bond fires in the open, just because we dont part with our valued secrets and advice to every Jan & Piet who asks for it.

You all see now why "true specimen anglers" are almost like the Illuminati, as our information on baits, venues, tactics etc are so highly guarded and protected. And no, not for the sake of the angler being "selfish" and being able to show off the biggest photo in the group, but rather for the safety and protection of our much loved specimen, the humble Cyprinus Carpio.....
Click to expand...

Have to dissagree with you on this one Chris. If true specimen anglers are not willing to part with knowledge, then it's no use complaining about the next upcoming specimen angler.

If you have a look at Martin Louw and how much of knowledge he is willing to part with. His articles are so detailed and informative. He even has a step by step article on preparing feed on his website. Not too long ago, he had a question and answer blog on his website. I don't see him gaurding his secrets.

Just my 2 cents
 
S

Snytjie

New member
I'm also struggling with the issue of sharing knowledge. One the one hand, I agree that education/knowledge sharing is needed. On the other hand, you have no assurance that the listener will apply the knowledge to the full, i.e. not only focus on catching fish and ignore fish care and conservation. The latter has unfortunately happened on many occasions, Doringdraai dam being the best example where people often kill fish and some even being en found fishing with raw particles. This has happened after some well- meaning specimen anglers published their experience there and their knowledge about the venue.

Yet, as was said now, we cannot expect people to act responsibly if they do not aquire the proper script from experienced anglers. I tend to think much more should be made available in terms of clinics/seminars/publications on responsible/specimen angling and its basics (especially the conservation side), but that specifics about venues should be guarded until you are sure of the particular angler's ethics. I would for instance love to see a well researched article by an expert on the anatomy, growth rates and breeding of carp published in all the major angling publications. These aspects should be presented in such a way to emphasize the need for carp care, the conservation of large specimens, and the managing of carp population in waters.

The latter I think is extremely important. After relocating to Cape Town recently, I found a lot of negativity towards carp and its anglers. In many cases the negativity is justified, as the fish population in the particular waters was never managed and has been left to become out of control and causing many problems. This is however unneccessary and could be rectified quite easily. The problem is that the authorities and dam owners only have exposure to "research" focusing on the negative perceptions of the carp species, and then decide to eradicate or remove the fish. 
 
K

kaboem

Sealiner
Alot of different views on this topic... I must agree with the majority 4 rods at Emma is crazy the lake is always packed over weekends and line pressure is the result of most of the guys having bad results...

Leaving you baits and groundfeed on the bank is just plain inconsiderate and stupid, think about the next guy and his family coming to enjoy a day at the dam.... There is a very good specimen angler on another forum who always uses a saying it goes like this  "take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints"

I think if everybody will start applying this to their attetude, then we will alraedy start seeing a difference!!!

I must agree with BP not all "Specimen Anglers" are open for advice or suggestions... We do have alot of guys amongs us who want to :talk the talk, but they dont want to walk the walk" Guys are buying big expencive rods,pods ext they use ready made rigs that they buy cause they dont know how make their own rigs let alone splice a piece of leadcore..... I might get stoned for what i am about to say but i believe this is where the problem starts.

We have two magazines who do storys, expose our prime waters, post pictures of big carp and litterally tell the world where to go and find the fish ext.... But what they tend to leave out from their articals are the basics what you need to catch them with... If you want to educate the public start with basics, dont do a story exposing a big dam getting every koos to go and fish there if you know the dam is full of snags and using mono is unapropriate? thats where the problem starts.

What i am getting at is that these guys were probably influenced by a magazine have never had a reel conversation with a true Carp specimen angler and are going by what the read in magazines....

Only good thing i have seen these magazines have got out to the puplic is the use of proper unhooking mats and knotless landing nets i see more and more anglers starting to use these tools and practice some form of carp safety and i am reffering to the conventional side now.

We can go on and on, on this thread. But i am probably borring everyone so ill cut it short here....lol

My 2c 

 
 
B

Bilz

Member
Already there are 346 views on this thread. Thumbs up to you BP. If just 5 people are are influenced by changing a few habits , whether it be: fishing less rods at smaller venues, cleaning up before leaving the bank, over feeding etc etc etc. These five people could influence they children and they friends and so on and on.Then in my opinion we are part of the solution and this alone is an accomplishment.

If more people are starting to use unhooking mats and knotless landing nets by reading forums or articles, then this tells us something.

People are hungry for knowledge. Lets be part of a solution and not part of the problem.

 
 
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