Hiya Having joined this forum fairly recently,

miles

Sealiner
Hiya

Having joined this forum fairly recently, i've noticed that many of the members are very conservation concious. This is ALWAYS a good thing. Talks of bag limits, are they too generous, size limits, etc can only lead to the improvement of our fish stocks.

How-ever, what irks me is that on another thread, a angler is complimented on his great catch of a ragged tooth shark. Not taking away from the achievement of the angler, it was a huge shark and a phenominal catch, but WHY do anglers continue to target sharks??

Firstly, they're not edible. (besides Mako's). They do offer a great fight, but with the decline in shark stocks, is it advisable to harrass them even more? What percentage of sharks die becuase of being captured? Having hooks embedded in its throat surely can't bode well for a sharks well-being.

Whats even more appalling is that i've read of a Great White Shark that was washed up on a beach with a gaff still in it!! Great Whites are a protected specie here in SA.

Mention of catching ragged tooth sharks also abound on this forum. Here's a excerp from http://www.aoca.org.za/oceaninfo.htm#null

The Status of Ragged Tooth Sharks

Ragged tooth sharks are under threat in many parts of the world and the species is listed as Vulnerable by the World Conservation Union (IUCN 2000) Red List of Threatened Animals. The Red List rationale is based on the fact that ragged tooth sharks have one of the lowest reproductive rates known among sharks (one to two pups every other year), and that it is late in maturing (6-12 years) resulting in it’s inability to sustain heavy fishing pressures.

In 1984 ragged tooth sharks became the world’s first protected shark species, following their targeted hunting by fishers and spearfishers in Australia and their subsequent decimation in the 1960’s. Despite the implementation of a comprehensive recovery plan in Australian waters, they are showing no signs of recovery and are listed as Critically Endangered. A recent report has found that they could be extinct within six years unless drastic measures are implemented to protect them in this area.

Internationally they have come under mounting pressure; off the coast of the United States ragged tooth sharks are rare (80-90% decline) and are presently protected. The decline has stopped but recovery is not apparent. They are now absent from the Eastern Pacific, and in the Mediterranean and East Asia they are rare. Although ragged tooth sharks are commercially protected in South Africa, there has been little research into the biology of these animals and their population status is largely unknown.

Furthermore, in Australia, Raggies, called Grey Nurse Sharks (GNS) there, is a protected specie. Some area's have even been made reserves, because they are inhabited by GNS.

So WHY would competative anglers, who would be well informed about these things, still continue to target these sharks? Ego is the only reason i can think of.......

Regards

miles
 

SPRINGER

New member
Good topic miles, you are absolutely correct

BUT, i think more harm is been done by long linners, commercial anglers and social fisherman. I think majority club anglers know how to gaff a fish, in the correct place[ stand to be corrected ] and handle a fish out of the water. I have watched club anglers, land sharks and they return it to the water as soon as possible. Where as a social fisherman will hack or kill the shark before returning it to the water. A social fisherman claims that the shark is wasting his bait[ NOT ALL SOCIAL FISHERMAN] Where as club anglers fish for the sport and not for the pot.

I am not deffending club anglers but this is what I have noticed.

This in my 2c worth 

 
 

scorpion

Senior Member
gaffs are being phased out in leaugue comps dude, so most competent club angler's are tailing the fish. hooks are removed easily because the barbs removed. i would like to think that more than 90% of fish landed by club anglers are returned in good condition. i think our ragged tooth shark population is healthy due our conservation policies.
 

Noweeds

Sealiner
Our raggie stocks are so healthy in fact that in the Border they are blaming them for the decline in sandy numbers. Another fact is that the average size is increasing at a scary rate........for example raggies were a rare catch in false bay up till a few years ago now not only are we seeing them regularly but the size's that are comming out are serious. I mean in the last two years the WP record has been beaten twice. Firstly a fish of 195kilos and now one of 235.........Also targeting sharks and the practice of tagging has let to valuble info being collected leading to more understanding of the species!

I would go so far as to say that there is now more of an understanding about shark growth rates and seasonal movements than there is about edibles and this is purley as a result of guys tageting and tagging sharks.


Out of interest how many yellowfin or tail are tagged each year, and do we know where they go when they leave our waters.
 

Mantis

Senior Member
good valid point smiles. that shark with the gaff story i investigated a while back and can say that i'm 99% it was a boat angler responsible. it was a short handled gaff which has no purpose from the shore, plus there were no whites landed during the competition where this transpired. there was a dead bronzie as a result of the comp but the guys did everything by the book and it was just too exhausted to survive.

 

i spoke to a commercial tuna angler last night and he reckons they kill every single shark they catch by removing one fin and letting it suffer as a "warning" to other sharks. needless to say we got very heated but anyway...

 

there is a lot done by anglers to increase the chances of a successful release such as barbless hooks, stainless hooks, no gaff etc...

 

from what i gather our shark population is very healthy indeed. but you've certainly made me think a bit.
 

Veez

New member
Interesting topic Miles

I've been watching the Mad Fin Shark fishing tournament on ESPN, and those guys aren't allowed to catch Nurse / Raggies. Never knew they are protected in the USA until now.
 

Karma

Senior Member
Noweeds wrote:
Our raggie stocks are so healthy in fact that in the Border they are blaming them for the decline in sandy numbers. Another fact is that the average size is increasing at a scary rate........for example raggies were a rare catch in false bay up till a few years ago now not only are we seeing them regularly but the size's that are comming out are serious. I mean in the last two years the WP record has been beaten twice. Firstly a fish of 195kilos and now one of 235.........Also targeting sharks and the practice of tagging has let to valuble info being collected leading to more understanding of the species!

I would go so far as to say that there is now more of an understanding about shark growth rates and seasonal movements than there is about edibles and this is purley as a result of guys tageting and tagging sharks.


Out of interest how many yellowfin or tail are tagged each year, and do we know where they go when they leave our waters.

I agree with your sentiments in this post Noweeds.

Miles, maybe you can explain to me how the following would be different:

a) Catch and release of edibles vs non-edibles

b) Statistically provide (let's be generous and say a confidence interval of 10%) how many social, club and all forms of recreational anglers fish for the pot as an economically viable proposition to buying "a parcel from texies".

c) Most anglers targeting shark do so in club environments and what percentage of them are killed as a result of being caught

d) What do recreational anglers do when landing barbel or any non targetted shark

I believe that education is the key and only once you understand and appreciate the ocean and it's inhabitants in all forms and glory, will you become a custodian of this process.

ciao

K

 
 

zzzz

New member
howzit miles

i think you have many valid points on this topic, but i disagree anyway. I will not waste space by typing what greg said, so "Ditto Weeds' comments"
 

Raggieman

Senior Member
Hi Miles

I hear what you say and the shark in question being referred to was my catch... following further on that - i strongly believe in releasing all my non edible catches and only use a gaff were necessary and if a gaff is used the shark is gaffed in non fatal area. furthermore I do not play the fish until it is half dead and then land it - that Raggie I landed in under 30min and released and it swam off strongly and if I had a tag applicator there I would have tagged that Raggie. I do not believe in fighting a fish until its half dead before landing it. Furthermore I am moving towards using circle hooks when targeting non edibles

furthermore when targeting non edible fish can one really target a specfic species of fish ie I am going to catch a raggie or is it an hit and miss approach

furthermore I have seen raggies being caught on bait being presented for edible fish.

why do people who hunt - shoot trophy animals (which depletes the strong gene pool) the same reason why anglers look for that trophy fish only difference is alot of times that trophy fish is released again.

Shark fishing will always be around just look at Madfin Shark tournament in America but there needs to be education regarding best practice for shark fishing - i get upset and loss it when I see people who dont know how to gaff - trying to gaff a shark and then land up hooking it in the stoamch.

and lastly why not remove shark nets - have you seen the mortality figures of sealife not just sharks as a result of shark nets - dolphins sea turtles etc or Commerical charterboats that kill sharks unneccesary

 

Weeds I second your view point

 
 

Raggieman

Senior Member
on a another note - how many anglers out there have caught a shark and have seen the Barbs from Stingrays stuck in the roof of the sharks mouth especially Raggies who love sandys and rays and other sharks for that matter.

 
 

miles

Sealiner
Hiya

Raggieman, firstly, congrats on a great catch!! I wasn't offering any dis-respect to that achievement. What bothered me was the topic of trophy hunting was broached on another thread, and pretty much condemned. (talking about Marlin and Tuna) Yet, trophy hunting for sharks is considered OK. Just mentioning some facts to make people see that there are different view points.

Let me be honest. This stems from quite a while back. Early on in my fishing career (read quite a few years back!!), i witnessed a weigh-in at Saldanha. It was a non-edibles comp., or rather it seemed that way, looking at the catch. Sharks, skates, rays and even the humble sand-shark/guitar was all laying in one great heap after the weigh-in. From memory, more than 1000kg's+ of DEAD non-edibles were laying on a heap. Left a real bad impression on my thoughts of competative anglers. Granted, that was a while back, and things have certainly progressed, to as mentioned, the banning of gaff's in comp's, returning of 99% of all fish caught,etc,etc.

I've witnessed guys landing sharks with-out gaff's. They end up dragging the shark out by its tail. Now, i've read that pulling a shark by the tail is detrimental to its health. Things such as incorrect handling, incorrect tagging techniques, incorrect tags used, tag wound damage,Check:

http://www.coast-shark.com/HowTo/Releasing/

http://www.sharkonline.org/rodeocrueltytailtwisting.mv

Furthermore, over 18% of large Raggies tagged succumb to post release mortality. Check:

http://eprints.ru.ac.za/247/

Sadly, with any form of rod and reel fishing, by-catch will always happen. You simply can't target only one specie of shark. You bait, presented for a Raggie, could well be picked up by a large skate/ray, Bronzy, large spotty or even a Great White. Even though you've accidentally hooked, lets say a GWS, what happens if the shark gets tail wrapped and dies during the fight??

Noweeds, there are a couple of issues worth adressing. Firstly, global warming. We're getting species now that we never got before in our waters. Talking from a spearfishing point on view, i would fairly often see TROPICAL species of fish, similar to your home aquaruim types, on our reefs when the water is warm. Similarly, Dorado or Mahi-mahi is now a common catch off Cape Point. Over the last year, marlin catch's and hook-ups have also increased. We've even had Wahoo!! Non of these were found in their current numbers a few years back.

The Raggie stocks are indeed healthy, from what i've seen whilst spearfishing. These docile sharks are incredabily beautiful to see underwater. Most spearo's have seen Raggies, especially when hunting yellowtail. They rarely bother a diver, so are generally ignored.

The commercial guys are actually busy with a Yellowfin Tagging programme. I'll keep you posted on the progress!:D

Mantis, i completely dis-agree with the killing of ANYTHING, if you're not going to eat/utilize it. I have a strict policy that all sharks hooked from my boat, is to be released, with-out harm. Crew is not even allowed to hit the shark....... Easy way we handle sharks, simply throw them a tuna head. As the head sinks, the chase it down and never return to bother you. I simply cannot kill a shark for a measily R15.00 hook in its mouth. The guy you spoke to who maims the sharks, tell him that i'd GIVE him the R15.00 for each hook he loses due to sharks, if he simply cuts the line!!

Once again, this post just goes to show how opinions can differ on a certain subject. If you look hard enough, you'll find faults with any form of angling. The saddest part is that recreationals really have a TINY impact on the fish stocks.

Regards

miles
 

wollychop

New member
Why even bother beaching a shark? Once seen in the shallows, why not walk in, cut the line as close as possible and let him bugger off. I must say, unless I am going to eat something, I really don't give a rats as to how much it weighs!:? 
 

Raggieman

Senior Member
I don't have problem with trophy hunting if the species targeted is released - trophy hunting and killing the fish is wrong. similarly i think its wrong to keep kob over 10 kilos but if i do manage to catch a 40kg Dagga I will have my photo taken and release the fish.

Just look how marlin competitions have changed  and if look at the tag ad release program for Marlin - I fully support it.

Yes Competitive angling has come a long way in last couple of years - in the past anglers used to parade the big catches hanging from scales on the beach and then dump the carcasses.

recreational and competitive anglers have a very small impact on fishing stocks and as long as people eat fish we will always have commercial fishing. there was a story that was doing the rounds that pelagic fish should not be tagged as this gives the commercial anglers much needed information such as migratory routes and movements like i say this was a story i heard and can not comment on the truth of the matter

there was shark competition in America where the sharks were kept and weighed and then the flesh was donated to the local orphanage and community centers.

lastly lets look at ESA - " Educate innovate conservate   " and they target sharks and release them

Miles agree the scene you witnessed quite a few years ago would anger me as well - I mean got very upset  when a fellow angler hooked into a nice fish and I was told by another angler he had to fight the fish until it was half floating on top of the water before landing it in a tricky place needless to say  it lead to heated words because if that fish was to be released chance of survival would be zero, unfortunately he got snagged on the rocks and lost the fish.

coming from a family that was Game trappers and relocating animals rather than culling them - no matter what precautions you take there is fatalities same with releasing Fish whether edible or non the more stress you place on it the chances of survival decrease thus the quicker you land the fish the better the chance of survival

 
I don't think there is different views - Killing a fish for a trophy is wrong catching that same fish and releasing it even with 18% fatality rate so that your grandchildren can have the same experience one day ...

 
 

AD

Senior Member
Interesting, and I also agree with Noweeds on our Raggie stocks are actually improving....wish the same could be said in other areas of the world. Sadly the bronzies in NAM are being slaughted for their fins and Mozambique's shark population is also being targeted in the same manner.

To get back to your question, Miles, perhaps the 'blame' should lie on the era of anglers, early sixties to seventies? Those of you DBN guys will recall the big sharks taken off south pier. In the cape you had Great Whites being caught off Hermanus.....ledges at Rookkraintz producing tuna, etc.

As angling developed as a sport it was the same school of anglers that spawned a generation of anglers that then formed organised angling  as we know it today, as such created a sport that sadly once led to tons of sharks and rays being caught in single day from shore during National comps. The rules of the game had a serious flaw and is unfortunatly still evident today...i.e. the team with the top weight wins. So it is much easier to target large weighted fish such as a 80 kilo shark or ray than say a 40 kilo kob for points?

Also the fan fare of a huge shark being fought and pulled out to tera firma....than that someone puling out a 1 kilo wave garrick does not seem to have the same viewing impact.

The irony of it all is when as a Springboks, and u get to fish a true international (so not against Nambia)....the rules are somewhat different, the fish u target are sometimes smaller than the mackeral we use! Now if our club and provincial rules said....no in-edible species....and to add salt in the wounds only fish of certain sizes (some such as kob must mearsure less than say 80cm to count s points)...and u only allowed to register 2 fish per spiecie, etc.....wow, imagine the impact it would have to the sport as we know it....not to mention the tackle stores? I mean would we be going all out for heavy rods and powerfull reels?

Do I smell a conspiracy theory here???

Not withstanding...Miles, I give u 10/10 for raising a very interesting topic....makes u think next time...I throw a live shad out, do I put on wire and go for a blackfin or do I go for broke and put heavy straight nylon and try for a big kingie.....it all depends on what are my odds are on catching a shark vs an edible.

 
 

Karma

Senior Member
jace wrote:
Hi guys

Interesting views

See my comments on....the thread..why to we fish.

Rdgs

Jace

Hey Jace

 

Suffering from a bit of insomnia are you - 3.24am?:cool:  Would you mind putting a link to the thread when quoting from a past thread?

 

ciao

K
 

Ajay

Senior Member
A few points---Firstly its not just Makos that are edible . South Africa was exporting large amounts of assorted shark meats to Australia for  human consumption.Flake and chips.Its as popular as hake and chips is over here. Laws in Oz were tightened so they had to start sourcing sharkmeat elsehwere and as far as I know that practice has not been stopped.I have certainly seen gutted and beheaded small( milk?) shark carcasses on the quayside at Kalk Bay fairly regularly over the last few years, all snapped up by buyers.Could even be buyers from companies like I&J who are then exporting on in bulk.
 
Secondly the disgusting practice of "fin and release" has been going on on boats for ages.A very sad end for such radical predators.Longliners are the big culprits globally (scary tonnages) but I have heard local guys(recreationals) bragging and laughing about it . These are the same types that shoot seals no doubt and generally give the much larger more responsible percentage of fishermen a really crap name.

AD--I hardly think the anglers of the sixties and seventies are as responsible for decline in shark numbers as the shark nets on a weekly,monthly and annual basis.Also the lack of the whaling station has meant all those fish didnt come in any more.When my Dad was a kid he used to watch giant Great Whites following the the whalers in and I am not saying some werent killed , but those fish werent a common catch.They were simply too big.

Mantis--Subject to correction but one does not want stainless hooks. You want them to rust as quickly as possible if its barbed because its not just going to just drop out in most cases that have made it to the boat or shore?! Have to agree about the gaff in the mouth story though. Almost certainly a boat and his only possible excuse for it landing up in the thing in its mouth was that it took a snap at it.... but honestly,how likely was that.......
 

Noweeds

Sealiner
Ajay wrote:
Mantis--Subject to correction but one does not want stainless hooks. You want them to rust as quickly as possible if its barbed because its not just going to just drop out in most cases

Ajay.....this debate has been going on for some time. There are 2 schools of thought:

1. Use bronze hooks cause they rust out fast.

2. Use barbless stainless hooks cause they won't rust therefore will not cause infection.

It would be interesting to hear from other guys, but i've caught quite a number of fish with VERY old bronze hooks in their mouths that are completly rusted but just have not disintergrated. I think its a bit of a falacy that hook rust out in a matter of days. Maybe little hooks smaller than a no.1 but certainly not the larger sizes.

Personally i reckon that it makes no differnce if the hook is bronze or stainless as long as it is barbless and will fall out. The move to barbless hooks for all angling is going to ba a slow one.

I found it interesting that during my social fishing in the last year i tried to use barbless hook for all my bronzie fishing and actually found that i lost less fish!!!

 
 

kraken

Senior Member
I don't believe that barbless hooks have any major impact on ones catch ratio.I have experience in two very different areas of fishing in this regard.
I caught countless longfin as well as a number of other species whilst working in the commercial tuna fishery.With a 25 to 30 ton capacity hold to fill,the last thing one wants is to lose fish.On the boats I worked on,barbless hooks were the norm.
Incidently,the same goes for circle hooks.These too are used almost exclusively by all the pelagic longline fleets worldwide.Oddly enough,our demersal hake longliners still use the J hook up untill a few years ago as far as I'm aware.
My experience with barbless hooks with regard to shore angling is based on the privilege of having fished at the De Hoop Marine Reserve on a number of occasions.The use of barbless hooks is standard procedure as this minimises the time the fish spends out of water as well as hopefully reducing any major trauma.
I now debarb all my hooks when preparing and packing my traces.I ain't shy to admit that I find myself conveniently "forgetting" to do this at times.Its a conscious decision I have to make.

Most sharks are highly edible.Our smooth hound is one species which is highly sought after.This is the flake mentioned above.I personally know a couple of individuals who target this species using longlines on the east coast.This is no fly by night operation.These are large and well equipped vessels able to freeze and process up to 60 tons per trip.
I've heard that even that bloated old skaamhaai, the cow shark,has also been on the menu of late.
At this stage of the game its a case of anything is fair game.
Its absolutely insane to think that shore anglers have any negative effect on the shark stocks off our coastline.
I leave you with this thought.Angling is a form of hunting and it is the only form of hunting where one has a choice over whether or not to kill and still be able to enjoy the thrill of overcoming an adversary who has everything stacked in its favour.

And now,after an invigorating surfacing,I return to the abyss! 
 
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