First up lets clear the decks on this regarding ro

[AndriesH]

Here is a laymans version of building Graphite blanks:
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Graphite-Fishing-Rod-Blanks-Are-Made&id=1359034

The heading:
"How Graphite Fishing Rod Blanks Are Made "

It starts like this:
"Fishing rod blanks are made of a carbon fibers composite or prepregs (= pre-impregnated) produced by the chemical industry with a long and costly procedure. The vast majority of carbon composites are not used to make fishing rods but have endless applications in larger sectors of the industrial world like the automobile and aerospace industry.

A composite is basically a material made of two or more different materials. In a carbon composite the carbon fibers are reinforced in a polymer matrix (e.g. polyester or epoxy)."

I hope this helps.

Paragraph three holds the key between Carbon and Graphite.

 

[skrops]

Okay if I may give my opinion here, I am no scientist and am just a dumb dushy that have been involved in minerals and associated products for the last 20 years. Graphite is a mineral so please bear me with me.

you get two different types of Graphite natural and synthetic. see link for natural graphite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite

Graphite is the name given to the mineral found in 1789 and were derived from the Greek word (graphein)meaning to draw or write , first used in pencils, also until today referred to a lead. okay so there the origin for the name graphite.

Natural Graphite ( sometime referred to as plumbago or flaky graphite)is is made up of different elements but normally about 99% pure carbon, (please remember this)the elements found in a minerals determines what kind of minerals it would be. i.e Talc powder (baby powder) has two major elements in it which are: Magnesium and silicate in certain porpotions make a Talc, should one of them be absent then you don't have a Talc, cos magnesium my be found with carbonates but then it is a dolomite.....enought of that.

Natural graphite is used for lubricants, pencils, refractories and foundrys due to it high smelt point lubrication properties.

Synthetic Graphite is the process of heating elements like sugar for instance to a certain temprature, once again the element found in this final product is Carbon hence reference back to Graphite.

in summery, Graphite is the mineral found 1789 and still mined today all over the world, but element in the mineral (Carbon)makes it a Graphite. and Graphite can not be used to manufacture carbon fibres.

when people refer to carbon fibres as graphite fibres it is a generic reference.........almost like everyone calling any fabric softener "stay soft"

now the experts can explain how they get different strenghts of carbon fibre or different strengths of carbon rods.

 

 

[flippy]

realdeal wrote:

second up lets clear the bloodydecks to the source of the post. yes a lot of the material was copied and pasted. i did not for one moment doubt that some internet searches would be conducted and that does not detract from the facts so i was well aware that this would crop up. when you say the size for a galjoen must be 35cm do you quote the source and the article of the legislation in which it is published? it's not necessary on a forum such as this as this is not a scientific thesis this is directed towards consumers in the SA market.

i do however actually know when i copy pasted what i was talking about and that's why the contenders to this post is going to have some difficulty in disproving any of these facts. i'm not re-inventing the wheel i will rather build on the facts that are commonly out there - not going to redraft documents for existing scientific facts to be able to say that it is my own work. i'm not about to reperform the scientific research done in this regard already nor do i have the budget to do this.

The facts are simple "carbon fibre" and "graphite" as referred to in rod blanks are the same thing. You cannot say one rod is carbon fibre and the other is graphite as they are one and the same. HMC and HMG are abbreviations used by rod manufacturers or assemblers as i like to see it as seldomly do they manufacture the blanks themselves. I'm not here to prove my point this is simply scientific facts so i'm happy to regurgitate what is commonly known in scientific fields.

we will get to some other rod facts later but for now i'd like to make sure that everyone understands that carbon fibre and graphite referred to in rod blanks are the same thing. next up we can look at how and why different rods are indeed so different but still being carbon fibre.

what i do like is the way i've been challenged...someone is going to walk out of the room hurt and it's not going to be me because i ACTUALLY know what i'm talking about

you sound sexy...\wooot/ 

 

[flippy]

just kidding, am interested to learn more...

 

[Johan S]

Whaler wrote:

Maestro wrote:

realdeal wrote:

second up lets clear the bloodydecks to the source of the post. yes a lot of the material was copied and pasted. i did not for one moment doubt that some internet searches would be conducted and that does not detract from the facts so i was well aware that this would crop up. when you say the size for a galjoen must be 35cm do you quote the source and the article of the legislation in which it is published? it's not necessary on a forum such as this as this is not a scientific thesis this is directed towards consumers in the SA market.

i do however actually know when i copy pasted what i was talking about...

Great stuff..thanks for clearing the 'bloodydeck, for admitting that it was cut & pasted, and for admitting that the 'scientific' facts presented was actually a research conducted by a company that manufactures bicycle parts,which was scholarly omitted...great job

I would like a 16speed racing 14 ft HMG rod please!lol

Hooked wrote:

skrops wrote:

Hooked wrote:

I dont know who Realdeal is but I do think he is only here to upset some of the members of this forum.

Carbon fibre and Graphite are two different materials with two different properties.I have never subscribed to this high modulus thing as that is just a unit of measurement.

We all know that that come from the same base material and are " baked " at different tempretures to achieve two different substances.Realdeal would like you to think that they the same substance but they do in fact have completely different properties.

If you take some sugar and put it in a pan and melt it you get one substance ( syrup I think ) , if you take sugar and throw it in an oven at 200 deg you get something else entirley.Basically realdeal would like you to refer to both of these sugar results by the same name ie : toffee whilst in fact they would look different , taste different and in fact , be different.

Hope this helps someone

 

thanks Hooked, are you refering the Graphite fibre, i.e a graphite rod? if so why do these guys say the following or rather then what do they mean by that: quote from previous page(I copied and pasted)

There has been many questions as to whether or not the rod blank is ‘graphite’ or ‘carbon fibre’. In fact, carbon fibre and graphite fibre are really one in the same. For years engineers, sales people, and technologists have debated what exactly to call the material as Andrew Marshall points out in his book Composite Basics, “(from the inception)…the scientists involved could not seem to agree on exactly what it was they were producing, some calling it “carbon fibre”, while other equally qualified authorities termed it, “graphite fibre.”

Hiya Skrops , Please follow the link and read the glossary.I tend to believe the opinion of someone who makes F1 components over the opinion of someone I dont know

http://www.komprex.com/Glossary/index.htm

Then follow the links from that site and see what else they make

Whaler, rather get yourself the upgraded F1 HMC version

On a more serious note though, it seems as if the text refered to by realdeal is legit. Composite Basics, Seventh Edition By Andrew Marshall, 2001, approx. 150 pages http://www.fibreglast.com/showproducts-category-Books%20-%20General-117.html

 

[benniejordaan]

skrops wrote:

Okay if I may give my opinion here, I am no scientist and am just a dumb dushy that have been involved in minerals and associated products for the last 20 years. Graphite is a mineral so please bear me with me.

you get two different types of Graphite natural and synthetic. see link for natural graphite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite

Graphite is the name given to the mineral found in 1789 and were derived from the Greek word (graphein)meaning to draw or write , first used in pencils, also until today referred to a lead. okay so there the origin for the name graphite.

Natural Graphite ( sometime referred to as plumbago or flaky graphite)is is made up of different elements but normally about 99% pure carbon, (please remember this)the elements found in a minerals determines what kind of minerals it would be. i.e Talc powder (baby powder) has two major elements in it which are: Magnesium and silicate in certain porpotions make a Talc, should one of them be absent then you don't have a Talc, cos magnesium my be found with carbonates but then it is a dolomite.....enought of that.

Natural graphite is used for lubricants, pencils, refractories and foundrys due to it high smelt point lubrication properties.

Synthetic Graphite is the process of heating elements like sugar for instance to a certain temprature, once again the element found in this final product is Carbon hence reference back to Graphite.

in summery, Graphite is the mineral found 1789 and still mined today all over the world, but element in the mineral (Carbon)makes it a Graphite. and Graphite can not be used to manufacture carbon fibres.

when people refer to carbon fibres as graphite fibres it is a generic reference.........almost like everyone calling any fabric softener "stay soft"

now the experts can explain how they get different strenghts of carbon fibre or different strengths of carbon rods.

 

So carbon rods and graphite rods are the same thing? I think that is what he was saying all along.

 

[Homie]

If I get the gist of this..


Real deal sys that HMG and HMC is the same, as it utilises the same "ingredients"

Hooked, Whaler, and myself say

Its not the same, even if the "ingredients" are the same
as Marthin (I think ??) mentioned that a diamond and coal have the same composite, they very different.

Guys,

Lets discuss this without mudslinging....
I would love to be corrected...

 

[AndriesH]

benniejordaan wrote:

So carbon rods and graphite rods are the same thing? I think that is what he was saying all along.

We are almost there.

The BASE material started out as the same. Carbon aka Graphite.

Then, due to differences during mixing, blending, weaving layering, etc etc, all the processes actually invlolved in making the blank, a manufacturer can change / modify the characteristics of the final product, which no longer is pure carbon aka graphite.

Allthough we still don't have a factual technical description to HMG or HMC, there very probably is a huge difference due to one of many variations that could be applied during the BLANK manufacturing process.

 

[Johan S]

Homie wrote:

ts not the same, even if the "ingredients" are the same
as Marthin (I think ??) mentioned that a diamond and coal have the same composite, they very different.

Guys,

Lets discuss this without mudslinging....
I would love to be corrected...

Close! OK, my material science knowledge is rusty. But, carbon is an element (i.e. a pure material, not a composite (combination of two or more elements). A carbon fiber sounds to me to be a composite. Carbon atoms will bind to one another in a variety of ways. It can either be crystaline (one huge crystal), polycrystaline (many small crystals, have you ever looked at a solar panel closely, there you have polycrystaline silicon) or amorphous (totally random bindings with no crystal structure). Diamond would be a pure crystal structure due to the pressure and temperature, charchoal would be amorphous (and probably contaminated with many other elements, so a compound as well). Like you said though, same ingredients (atoms), but different end products due to the variety of ways these atoms can bind with one another.

 

[Marthin]

I'm also not slinging. Homie you got what i said spot on.

Let's take good old rusks.... the ones you have with coffee while waiting for the big one.

If you take anys-beskuit (sorry dunno the english), and you eat it just as it comes out the oven, it's like bread and tastes heavenly with a lump of butter in.

After "ouma" has given you a whack with the wooden spoon for stealing her "beskuit", she then takes what's left and dries this overnite in the oven at about 80 degrees.

it still has exactly the same ingredients as she mixed into it the previous afternoon, but you'll agree by applying some more heat for a longer period of time the end results are vastly different.

 

[skrops]

Homie wrote:

If I get the gist of this..


Real deal sys that HMG and HMC is the same, as it utilises the same "ingredients"

Hooked, Whaler, and myself say

Its not the same, even if the "ingredients" are the same
as Marthin (I think ??) mentioned that a diamond and coal have the same composite, they very different.

Guys,

Lets discuss this without mudslinging....
I would love to be corrected...

ai jai ja...........Graphite, anthracite, coal, diamond all have elements of carbon in them, diamonds are the purest form of carbon but has been produced under much higher temprature and also under presure........masive presure higher than what man can do, hence the reason why we can produce industrial grade diamonds but will still be a couple decades before we can do what mother nature does, second highest is natural graphite.

 

[rofflign]

Marthin wrote:

I'm also not slinging. Homie you got what i said spot on.

Let's take good old rusks.... the ones you have with coffee while waiting for the big one.

If you take anys-beskuit (sorry dunno the english), and you eat it just as it comes out the oven, it's like bread and tastes heavenly with a lump of butter in.

After "ouma" has given you a whack with the wooden spoon for stealing her "beskuit", she then takes what's left and dries this overnite in the oven at about 80 degrees.

it still has exactly the same ingredients as she mixed into it the previous afternoon, but you'll agree by applying some more heat for a longer period of time the end results are vastly different.

unless she leaves it on 400deg c overnight, then you get carbon rusks...

 

[AndriesH]

@ Realdeal, you can come back now. Sorry for interrupting you.:headb

 

[Hooked]

AndriesH wrote:

@ Hooked,
You've got a bee in your bonnet and it's getting ugly.
Maybe you should stop digging a hole for yourself and try to add value to this thread.

The moment the word FIBER comes into context, then, and only then can you start differentiating between the constituant differences between carbon and graphite.

Untill such a time - They are molecularly IDENTICAL. The diferences in properties are achieved by the temperature treatment of the material that results in different crystaline structures, in the material.

Hi

I have bee in my bonnet , please dont insinuate that I have

You are jumping on a band wagon without reading everything properly.If you refer back to the beginning you will see that the argument is about wether the completed products can be called  graphite or carbon or wether the two terms can be used interchangably.

In your post above you have just said that the two have different charateristics so you disagree with realdeal and agree that a Carbon rod and a graphite rod are different.

Kindly take the time in future to read carefully through something first

 

[misguide]

:op:         +       

 

[skrops]

Homie wrote:

If I get the gist of this..


Real deal sys that HMG and HMC is the same, as it utilises the same "ingredients"

Hooked, Whaler, and myself say

Its not the same, even if the "ingredients" are the same
as Marthin (I think ??) mentioned that a diamond and coal have the same composite, they very different.

Guys,

Lets discuss this without mudslinging....
I would love to be corrected...

listen here china, if you wanna see my dutchman fist being extracted from your mounth..........then you must start this again.:headb

HMG = High Modulus Graphite

HMC = High Modulus Carbon

graphite is the freaking mineral and carbon is the freaking element, you can not get a FREAKING GRAPHITE ROD, but that is what the sales people call it....OKAY!!!!::cavmn::cavmn

 

[AndriesH]

Seeing as we are talking about bad manners here, I apologise.
I thought it appropriate to respond to your correctness when you jumped at the opportunity to hammer the new guy.

Please tell us who realdeal is seeing as you made him out to be a stirrer.
Else, maybe you could do us a favour and go fishing.

 

[Hooked]

AndriesH wrote:

Seeing as we are talking about bad manners here, I apologise.
I thought it appropriate to respond to your correctness when you jumped at the opportunity to hammer the new guy.

Please tell us who realdeal is seeing as you made him out to be a stirrer.
Else, maybe you could do us a favour and go fishing.

This is turning into a special olympics very quickly , andriesh is winning so far , which is fair as he owns sealine and gets to tell everyone else to go away so he can play with himself.

Sheesh why did I let whaler talk me into responding on here again I will never know......

Here's a though , what are Carbontex drag washers made of ?

 

[Whaler]

skrops wrote:

Homie wrote:

If I get the gist of this..


Real deal sys that HMG and HMC is the same, as it utilises the same "ingredients"

Hooked, Whaler, and myself say

Its not the same, even if the "ingredients" are the same
as Marthin (I think ??) mentioned that a diamond and coal have the same composite, they very different.

Guys,

Lets discuss this without mudslinging....
I would love to be corrected...

listen here china, if you wanna see my dutchman fist being extracted from your mounth..........then you must start this again.:headb

HMG = High Modulus Graphite

HMC = High Modulus Carbon

graphite is the freaking mineral and carbon is the freaking element, you can not get a FREAKING GRAPHITE ROD, but that is what the sales people call it....OKAY!!!!::cavmn::cavmn

Skrops! Kalmeer! jou pomp gaan bars!lol dit klink of jy meer as "no deal" weet so help ons met n' paar prentjies! asb.

 

[misguide]

Carefull Skrops - that Jack Russell has a nasty bite on him!