First up lets clear the decks on this regarding ro

[Whaler]

Maestro wrote:

Interesting to read this thread..sounds very "revealing"..however, just to add some constructive criticism, how often do we find that that when some1 proposes a 'new' theory...information that goes 'against the norm', a theory that,on the surface of it, seems so true(often due to the fact that blindly accepting it serves to satisfy our objection for,oh lets say,the high price we paid)..that this 'new revealing information' is warmly embraced without the slightest of verification...Note: this is by no means an attempt to discredit the info that 'realdeal has so 'scholarly' furnished us with(with his 1st post),which may be 100% correct..but it is solely an effort to highlight peoples inability to question and verify..again,this is no attempt to disprove the info,but would 'realdeal'(great post by the way) enlighten us reg. his field of expertise,more esp reg experience working with 'graphite/carbon fibre'..source of his info(eg. from reputable manufacturers etc & perhaps he would be kind enough to fill in his location) just for some substantiation,thats all...hope this post is not taken the wrong way (and no,i am neither a rod manufacturer,nor a dealer)

Funny thing is his first post rings a bell...

 

[Hooked]

realdeal wrote:

First up lets clear the decks on this regarding rods.

The term “graphite” is a consumer used phrase that was used in the late 70’s and has carried on through today. Graphite as you know it is “Carbon Fibre” which is what manufacturers and vendors refer to it as. All that is happening is that now that you have many other types of products made from this fibre and they are calling it carbon fibre now some of the blank manufacturers are trying to use that name to give a higher tech name to the same product. Thus HMC and HMG is no different too.

Technically we have been fishing carbon fibre rods, not graphite. No rods are being made or have been made from true graphite. That term has been used very loosely over the years but all the rods and blanks since existence that have been called graphite are actually, technically termed, carbon fibre.

But like the term rod "Action", graphite has seemed to have become the conventional common use term. Most likely the lay up of the plys of the new "carbon fibre" blanks that is a material contributor to the enhanced performance.

The most major advances in the use of composites comes from advances in the very difficult and complex manufacturing processes associated with the carbon fibre based composites.

Fibre and Composites

Graphite vs. Carbon

There has been many questions as to whether or not the rod blank is ‘graphite’ or ‘carbon fibre’. In fact, carbon fibre and graphite fibre are really one in the same. For years engineers, sales people, and technologists have debated what exactly to call the material as Andrew Marshall points out in his book Composite Basics, “(from the inception)…the scientists involved could not seem to agree on exactly what it was they were producing, some calling it “carbon fibre”, while other equally qualified authorities termed it, “graphite fibre.”

To see where the debate began and why we feel that the correct term actually is carbon fibre, let’s look at how the material is made. The carbon used is actually made by extruding and refining PAN: poly-acrylonitrile, fibres to a diameter between 5 and 7 microns. Theses fibres exhibit the highest tensile and compressive strengths of any of the carbon-based fibres, while being the least dense, making them ideal for strong, lightweight components. Numerous time and energy intensive steps are required to convert PAN to carbon fibre, beginning with Oxidation, followed by Carbonization and Graphitization. The final step of graphitization, which is generally considered under the umbrella of carbonization, is likely the origin of the term “graphite” when used in this context. Graphitizing typically occurs just after carbonizing, and is analogous to the heat treatment of steel. The difference, however, is that the temperatures of carbonization must held below about 2500° C to avoid actually turning the carbon into pure graphite, while the time duration is much longer for the carbonization of the fibres to improve integrity and produce ideal molecular structure. Care must be taken as a quick blast at 2800° C can turn the carbon into pure graphite, losing all structural integrity of the product.

The final carbon fibre exhibits incredible structural properties in that it has higher tensile strength and modulus than steel, while being 40% less dense than aluminum. The primary reason for the strength and stiffness of the material comes from its molecular structure, which is where the graphite debate becomes heated Though visually similar to graphite, even under microscopy, high-grade carbon demonstrates a highly amorphous internal structure with very strong bonding. This folded, random structure allows for the incredible mechanical properties mentioned above. Graphite, on the other hand, exhibits a beautiful, perfect crystalline structure similar to that of table salt, making the material weak and brittle. The mechanical difference becomes obvious when you look at the uses of graphite in pencil lead, or as a dry lubricant. The structural differences of the two materials go a long way towards demonstrating the difficulty in manufacturing high quality carbon fibre materials. The difference between the two is only about 200 °C during the carbonization (graphitization) process, and unfortunately, the results are irreversible.

NOW for the souls who spend exorbitant amounts on rods because they are carbon fibre vs. graphite you most likely will not believe this either because you prefer to fall for the marketing gimicks. We could start a series about rods but let me say first up i don't buy any of the marketing gimicks i work off scientifically proven facts only. This was a first post to clear the decks on the graphite vs. carbon fibre controversy.

Hi

Thanx for your post , for those peeps interested in such things you can find the original post here http://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,191323 . realdeal its considered bad manners on Sealine to copy and paste without citing the original author.

For those of you interested in learning about graphite and carbon please read through the whole link , please pay close attention to the uses of the two materials.

 

[Maestro]

Great stuff, will def give it a read

 

[AndriesH]

Here is some of my own ( 9 years) experience: heavy elecitrical engineering with Groupe Carbone Lorraine with reference to carbon and graphite:
1/ Carbon as a raw material is manufactured form coke and other petrochemical raw materials e.g. burning oil gives black smoke - that is pure carbon.
It is then further processed into carbon and carbon related products.
2/ 20% of useable graphite occurs in nature while the other 80% is manufactured from - you wouldn't believe - sugar.
It is one of the purest, naturally occuring chemicals compounds commonly available.

Agree with Realdeal that the graphitization process happens at an exptremely high temperatures - above 2500 degC and the resulting product has a crystaline structure that is useless for any form of structural design. (Broken pencil tip - as thick as some rod tips?)
It has brilliant electrical properties and reacts very well to very high current densities and high speed applications.
** We used it on 600 MWatt exciters to transfer current exceeding 20A/cm**2 at more than 60m/s.** That would be more than 750A on one slipring of a three phase power station generator. **

For fishing applications:
Carbons are processed into threads and these are what is used to make fishing rods, motor cars, planes etc.
The resulting product, commonly refered to as Carbon fibre is a material which is strong - ONLY in one linear direction.
Now if you weave this thread, you can manipulate this linear strength any way you want to and create sheets of it. Then you can start layering the weave, in any direction and as thick as you want to.
That is how you 'design' specific properties into a blank.
My 2c.

 

[Whaler]

Hooked wrote:

realdeal wrote:

First up lets clear the decks on this regarding rods.

The term “graphite” is a consumer used phrase that was used in the late 70’s and has carried on through today. Graphite as you know it is “Carbon Fibre” which is what manufacturers and vendors refer to it as. All that is happening is that now that you have many other types of products made from this fibre and they are calling it carbon fibre now some of the blank manufacturers are trying to use that name to give a higher tech name to the same product. Thus HMC and HMG is no different too.

Technically we have been fishing carbon fibre rods, not graphite. No rods are being made or have been made from true graphite. That term has been used very loosely over the years but all the rods and blanks since existence that have been called graphite are actually, technically termed, carbon fibre.

But like the term rod "Action", graphite has seemed to have become the conventional common use term. Most likely the lay up of the plys of the new "carbon fibre" blanks that is a material contributor to the enhanced performance.

The most major advances in the use of composites comes from advances in the very difficult and complex manufacturing processes associated with the carbon fibre based composites.

Fibre and Composites

Graphite vs. Carbon

There has been many questions as to whether or not the rod blank is ‘graphite’ or ‘carbon fibre’. In fact, carbon fibre and graphite fibre are really one in the same. For years engineers, sales people, and technologists have debated what exactly to call the material as Andrew Marshall points out in his book Composite Basics, “(from the inception)…the scientists involved could not seem to agree on exactly what it was they were producing, some calling it “carbon fibre”, while other equally qualified authorities termed it, “graphite fibre.”

To see where the debate began and why we feel that the correct term actually is carbon fibre, let’s look at how the material is made. The carbon used is actually made by extruding and refining PAN: poly-acrylonitrile, fibres to a diameter between 5 and 7 microns. Theses fibres exhibit the highest tensile and compressive strengths of any of the carbon-based fibres, while being the least dense, making them ideal for strong, lightweight components. Numerous time and energy intensive steps are required to convert PAN to carbon fibre, beginning with Oxidation, followed by Carbonization and Graphitization. The final step of graphitization, which is generally considered under the umbrella of carbonization, is likely the origin of the term “graphite” when used in this context. Graphitizing typically occurs just after carbonizing, and is analogous to the heat treatment of steel. The difference, however, is that the temperatures of carbonization must held below about 2500° C to avoid actually turning the carbon into pure graphite, while the time duration is much longer for the carbonization of the fibres to improve integrity and produce ideal molecular structure. Care must be taken as a quick blast at 2800° C can turn the carbon into pure graphite, losing all structural integrity of the product.

The final carbon fibre exhibits incredible structural properties in that it has higher tensile strength and modulus than steel, while being 40% less dense than aluminum. The primary reason for the strength and stiffness of the material comes from its molecular structure, which is where the graphite debate becomes heated Though visually similar to graphite, even under microscopy, high-grade carbon demonstrates a highly amorphous internal structure with very strong bonding. This folded, random structure allows for the incredible mechanical properties mentioned above. Graphite, on the other hand, exhibits a beautiful, perfect crystalline structure similar to that of table salt, making the material weak and brittle. The mechanical difference becomes obvious when you look at the uses of graphite in pencil lead, or as a dry lubricant. The structural differences of the two materials go a long way towards demonstrating the difficulty in manufacturing high quality carbon fibre materials. The difference between the two is only about 200 °C during the carbonization (graphitization) process, and unfortunately, the results are irreversible.

NOW for the souls who spend exorbitant amounts on rods because they are carbon fibre vs. graphite you most likely will not believe this either because you prefer to fall for the marketing gimicks. We could start a series about rods but let me say first up i don't buy any of the marketing gimicks i work off scientifically proven facts only. This was a first post to clear the decks on the graphite vs. carbon fibre controversy.

Hi

Thanx for your post , for those peeps interested in such things you can find the original post here http://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,191323.Realdeal , its considered bad manners on Sealine to copy and paste without citing the original author.

For those of you interested in learning about graphite and carbon please read through the whole link , please pay close attention to the uses of the two materials.

when it smells like a rat and looks like a rat, it normaly is a rat! HA! i new it!

 

[misguide]

Is this the "real deal"?

 

 

[Maestro]

No further comment

 

[AndriesH]

If all else fails go to www.howstuffworks.com
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-economy/carbon-fiber-oil-crisis1.htm

 

[skrops]

Hooked and Whaler I am obviously missing something.........apart from real deal copying and pasting.

what then is the difference between a graphite rod, HMG and a HMC rod.........in layman's terms please.

 

[Def-e-nition]

Hooked how the HECK did you find that Post ?!!!!!1

Crikey !! My Joost video is floating around somewhere on the Net too - Gaan Soek !!! lololol !!!
Bliiiiiiksem.

All cudo's to Steve Rushing then !! lolol ! Real Deal could be Steve , or Steve could Be Real deal ??

Either way it's an informative Post , albeit so virry virry sneaky ...!

darn , i just KNEW I shoulda taken Obama On when i caught him copy Pasting speeches from my MY SPACE Wall ....

:uzi:doh

 

[kraken]

Who gives a f"£k what the bloody things are made of! We'll all still part with our hard earned cash regardless.

Look at the outrageous prices being charged for rods at the moment, yet in most cases, a bog standard off the shelf exage or purglass will do the job at a third of the price and, if you were to remove all the labels, and tell people that it was the latest in space age carbon fibre technology and personally endorsed by the patron saint of fishermen, just about everyone who handles the rod would now all of a sudden be able to feel the difference!

 

[TOE 007]

very informative , welcome to sealine!

 

[kopstamp]

good reply kraken. we believe what we want to believe. as to when you are not sure about something, copy and paste in google, if the search comes up with most of the words in bold, the author copied and pasted...

 

[Whaler]

skrops wrote:

Hooked and Whaler I am obviously missing something.........apart from real deal copying and pasting.

what then is the difference between a graphite rod, HMG and a HMC rod.........in layman's terms please.

Luca drew me a picture! the way i see it is that they are diferent, the material in its true form is the same but once it goes through a sertain proses it changes and becomes one or the other, so bottom line is when you holding the rod in your hands the product you are holding will be either a HMC rod or a HMG rod the two are very diferent! this is how i understood it please dont shoot me if i'm wrong i'm not the real deal! exuse the pun !lol

 

[Whaler]

kraken wrote:

Who gives a f"£k what the bloody things are made of! We'll all still part with our hard earned cash regardless.

Look at the outrageous prices being charged for rods at the moment, yet in most cases, a bog standard off the shelf exage or purglass will do the job at a third of the price and, if you were to remove all the labels, and tell people that it was the latest in space age carbon fibre technology and personally endorsed by the patron saint of fishermen, just about everyone who handles the rod would now all of a sudden be able to feel the difference!

umm! actualy i do!

*whaler runs and hides!

SAVE THE COWS! use CARBONTEX!

 

[Ocean Hunter]

Me too, exage? No thanks!

 

[benniejordaan]

kraken wrote:

Who gives a f"£k what the bloody things are made of! We'll all still part with our hard earned cash regardless.

Look at the outrageous prices being charged for rods at the moment, yet in most cases, a bog standard off the shelf exage or purglass will do the job at a third of the price and, if you were to remove all the labels, and tell people that it was the latest in space age carbon fibre technology and personally endorsed by the patron saint of fishermen, just about everyone who handles the rod would now all of a sudden be able to feel the difference!

Very true,
If you do a little research you will find the the same blanks being used for rods that cost very differnt prices. Blanks are traded and sold all over the place.

 

[khan]

Guys i must have been the second guy last night to read this post but didnt want to comment as i was very enlightened by his info. but as you learn in school, always read and read again!!

His info was good but his first line states: First up lets clear the decks on this regarding rods.

This lead me to believe that the "real deal" wants to straigthen out someone that has tramped on his or her toes and is using Sealine as his media option. If indeed this is the story then i am sorry for "Real Deal" your first post came across with more angue than info. to me!!!

Before anyone starts on the rods, remember that i always support std graphite as this is my personal choice so i have nothing against the HMC,HMG debate!!!

 

[realdeal]

second up lets clear the bloodydecks to the source of the post. yes a lot of the material was copied and pasted. i did not for one moment doubt that some internet searches would be conducted and that does not detract from the facts so i was well aware that this would crop up. when you say the size for a galjoen must be 35cm do you quote the source and the section of the legislation in which it is published? it's not necessary on a forum such as this as this is not a scientific thesis this is directed towards consumers in the SA market.

i do however actually know when i copy pasted what i was talking about and that's why the contenders to this post is going to have some difficulty in disproving any of these facts. i'm not re-inventing the wheel i will rather build on the facts that are commonly out there - not going to redraft documents for existing scientific facts to be able to say that it is my own work. i'm not about to reperform the scientific research done in this regard already nor do i have the budget to do this.

The facts are simple "carbon fibre" and "graphite" as referred to in rod blanks are the same thing. You cannot say one rod is carbon fibre and the other is graphite as they are one and the same. HMC and HMG are abbreviations used by rod manufacturers or assemblers as i like to see it as seldomly do they manufacture the blanks themselves. I'm not here to prove my point this is simply scientific facts so i'm happy to regurgitate what is commonly known in scientific fields.

we will get to some other rod facts later but for now i'd like to make sure that everyone understands that carbon fibre and graphite referred to in rod blanks are the same thing. next up we can look at how and why different rods are indeed so different but still being carbon fibre.

 

[Psy]

:op:  :op: