CASTING SURF GRINDERS (LOW REEL SEAT) COMPARING K SERIES TO LOW RIDERS
- Thread starter Enigma
- Start date
Stefan Engelbrecht
Sealiner
Enigma,
Who is testing those 2 rods for you in Cape Town?
Who is testing those 2 rods for you in Cape Town?
OTGMan
I don't work for Shimano and not Paid by Shimano
If they don't provide the Bullseye to cast with I can't cast with it because I can't afford to buy one.
We tested these rods with Bullseye (borrowed), ISO Tournament, Ultegra, Bocca, Antega and Penn Spinfisher.
They will however be fished exclusively with Bullseye in competitions and on the Film shoots for the Tv Shows
I don't work for Shimano and not Paid by Shimano
If they don't provide the Bullseye to cast with I can't cast with it because I can't afford to buy one.
We tested these rods with Bullseye (borrowed), ISO Tournament, Ultegra, Bocca, Antega and Penn Spinfisher.
They will however be fished exclusively with Bullseye in competitions and on the Film shoots for the Tv Shows
I looked at the line flow in your video, found it very tamed and couldn't see the kind of tangles being shred as those seen in Fuji's explanatory videos on K-guide and Lowriders (Wind is 15-30km/h). I wonder if the reel really play a part as claimed. Because the design is based on 0degree to resolve majority of line slap and guide wrap.
The reel is quite popular mid-range reel but whether it does as it claims is still unknown. We still use it due to parts availability but have no chance to test on fish above 20lb and paired it with 30lb. Good luck on your huge catch.
Below is the manufacturer's comment on its design. I am not advertising the reel, only trying to understand how it achieves less line trouble.
The reel is quite popular mid-range reel but whether it does as it claims is still unknown. We still use it due to parts availability but have no chance to test on fish above 20lb and paired it with 30lb. Good luck on your huge catch.
Below is the manufacturer's comment on its design. I am not advertising the reel, only trying to understand how it achieves less line trouble.
Attachments
This is why I am unpopular with some of the proponents of the Grinder Revolution for R&S
The release on a Grinder rod results in massive energy transfer and the softer the rod the more bouncing in the tip and the lower the modulus the longer it takes to recover
A bouncing tip, especially with standard guides on it results in line wrapping around guides and the tip and hence guys slowing the cast and not giving 100% in the cast.
The result is a rod that is nice to fish with but is left wanting when distance is needed to get a bite.
In my own and humble opinion, if you want a sensitive soft rod for playing fish gently then the lower modulus is good
If you want a rod that allows you to reach the fish then use the highest performance material for the job.
No good having a rod that plays a fish well if you can't get your bait in among the feeding fish to get a bite
The release on a Grinder rod results in massive energy transfer and the softer the rod the more bouncing in the tip and the lower the modulus the longer it takes to recover
A bouncing tip, especially with standard guides on it results in line wrapping around guides and the tip and hence guys slowing the cast and not giving 100% in the cast.
The result is a rod that is nice to fish with but is left wanting when distance is needed to get a bite.
In my own and humble opinion, if you want a sensitive soft rod for playing fish gently then the lower modulus is good
If you want a rod that allows you to reach the fish then use the highest performance material for the job.
No good having a rod that plays a fish well if you can't get your bait in among the feeding fish to get a bite
LEADERS.......
Well this is the next interesting development on the Mono vs Braid Leader......
9 different casters with the rod, different reels and different braids as mainlines.
Each reel / braid combination was used to cast with both Nylon and Braid leader. With taped on Breakaway cannon and without the Canon (Bionic Finger)
All casts were measured (we trashed 2 x line mates in the process)
Many swear that a braid leader is the only leader one can cast off of a Grinder
Many say that a Bionic finger doesn't work with a Mono leader
Many say a Braid leader allows one to cast a lot further with than a Mono leader.
Results?
Well this is the next interesting development on the Mono vs Braid Leader......
9 different casters with the rod, different reels and different braids as mainlines.
Each reel / braid combination was used to cast with both Nylon and Braid leader. With taped on Breakaway cannon and without the Canon (Bionic Finger)
All casts were measured (we trashed 2 x line mates in the process)
Many swear that a braid leader is the only leader one can cast off of a Grinder
Many say that a Bionic finger doesn't work with a Mono leader
Many say a Braid leader allows one to cast a lot further with than a Mono leader.
Results?
hi Craig, i wana be able to cast at least 170m, with those cuta casting spoons for natal snoek....what wud you say is the best setup for me? im in duban, sunil is my friend from telkom....the next time i come up to JHB, i want you to have a custom made rod ready for me, also advise to the reel and braid please...thank you
Low or High reel position
I take it you are throwing the 1.5-3oz bullets?
If you want a long rod then the Blue Marlin Garrick 13' 3 piece
Or the SeaGrand DC 2-5oz 12' 2pce
For monster ranges then a low diameter 15-25lbs braid like Jigman or HMP or Gosen with Low Riders setup on the rod for maximum casting range (not optimal for maximum pulling) but will be fine with the tackle you present
Reels I would be biased to Shimano but sure Kingfiher will have a Daiwa that will fit right in for you.
I take it you are throwing the 1.5-3oz bullets?
If you want a long rod then the Blue Marlin Garrick 13' 3 piece
Or the SeaGrand DC 2-5oz 12' 2pce
For monster ranges then a low diameter 15-25lbs braid like Jigman or HMP or Gosen with Low Riders setup on the rod for maximum casting range (not optimal for maximum pulling) but will be fine with the tackle you present
Reels I would be biased to Shimano but sure Kingfiher will have a Daiwa that will fit right in for you.
Did the different leaders make fore different distances in casting......
Well to be honest none that I could measure, same rod, same reel, same weight different leaders
120, 140 and 200lbs Braid leaders
0.80, 1 and 1.2mm leaders connected direct to braid by Bob Sands knot (full length leader (ie from reel back to reel)
Leaders cast off in over 200 tests casts, none of either
Guides damaged, none on either (smallest in the setup is #16)
I would fish braid of beaches but would opt for the 0.70-1mm off the rocks.
Well to be honest none that I could measure, same rod, same reel, same weight different leaders
120, 140 and 200lbs Braid leaders
0.80, 1 and 1.2mm leaders connected direct to braid by Bob Sands knot (full length leader (ie from reel back to reel)
Leaders cast off in over 200 tests casts, none of either
Guides damaged, none on either (smallest in the setup is #16)
I would fish braid of beaches but would opt for the 0.70-1mm off the rocks.
kitefisher
Sealiner
Craig
Please be assured that all the effort and time that you guys are putting into these experiments, are highly appreciated. I like your objective approach to matters of this nature,and your slogan ''om te meet,is om te weet''is very apt in these trials.
Keep up the great work,looking forward to more.
p.s. ;Not to throw a spanner in the works,but given the line diameters of the new Berkley Maxx lines,one could consider throwing .33mm at nearly 10kg's B/S off a grinder and perhaps compare distances to a braid of roughly similar diameter.Bearing in mind that although the old light-tackle discipline was .40mm with leader not even allowed on spool,some huge fish were landed on similar breaking strain,as the .33mm Berkley Maxx.
Please be assured that all the effort and time that you guys are putting into these experiments, are highly appreciated. I like your objective approach to matters of this nature,and your slogan ''om te meet,is om te weet''is very apt in these trials.
Keep up the great work,looking forward to more.
p.s. ;Not to throw a spanner in the works,but given the line diameters of the new Berkley Maxx lines,one could consider throwing .33mm at nearly 10kg's B/S off a grinder and perhaps compare distances to a braid of roughly similar diameter.Bearing in mind that although the old light-tackle discipline was .40mm with leader not even allowed on spool,some huge fish were landed on similar breaking strain,as the .33mm Berkley Maxx.
We have done a lot of comparison, that's for another thread though but it was also in this Mania of throw 50lbs only.
When comparing diameter with Diameter between Mono and Braid. Mono outcasts Braid
When comparing Tensile Breaking Strain with Tensile Breaking strain the braid outcasts Mono
ie. 0.45mm Mono is 30lbs in a better than average mono.
30lbs Jigman and HMP is around 0.22mm. Casting the 2, the Braid wins irrespective of the mono being on Multiplier or Grinder (Braid on grinder only)
Casting braid off a multiplier, I have mono-magged some reels and we cast braid off the reels with the magnet turned full on and it allows for a most pleasurable fishing experience and a new dimension on sensitivity.
When comparing diameter with Diameter between Mono and Braid. Mono outcasts Braid
When comparing Tensile Breaking Strain with Tensile Breaking strain the braid outcasts Mono
ie. 0.45mm Mono is 30lbs in a better than average mono.
30lbs Jigman and HMP is around 0.22mm. Casting the 2, the Braid wins irrespective of the mono being on Multiplier or Grinder (Braid on grinder only)
Casting braid off a multiplier, I have mono-magged some reels and we cast braid off the reels with the magnet turned full on and it allows for a most pleasurable fishing experience and a new dimension on sensitivity.
kitefisher
Sealiner
Interesting that mono of similar diameter as braid outcasts the braid.What do you ascribe this to? Possibly the ''slickness'' of the Mono through the guides(guessing here).
As for braid on Multiplier,yip thats been done for some time,I suspect it is Simen from this forum who has been using it extensively for baitfishing.I have had a couple of Sl30's mono-magged for a couple of years now,as well as an sl20.They particularly spin-fishes well with Saltiga Boat Braid, which at just a tad over .40mm would give you over 70lbs of breaking strain.
The mag works well and has the advantage over a solidly tuned brake-collared reel,not really in distance, but you have the option of releasing the mag on a really good tonk,or when the wind favours you like invariably between May and August on the East -coast where you have the off-shore like a coconut every early morning.
p.s I am totally with you on the breaking strains,but for somebody with for example an Ultegra 5500 size reel fishing for edibles,it could be very cost-effective to fish 300meters of the .33mm Berkley mono at 10kg.s of breaking strain as opposed to say 30lbs braid at similar diameter ,yet 3xtimes the price.
As for braid on Multiplier,yip thats been done for some time,I suspect it is Simen from this forum who has been using it extensively for baitfishing.I have had a couple of Sl30's mono-magged for a couple of years now,as well as an sl20.They particularly spin-fishes well with Saltiga Boat Braid, which at just a tad over .40mm would give you over 70lbs of breaking strain.
The mag works well and has the advantage over a solidly tuned brake-collared reel,not really in distance, but you have the option of releasing the mag on a really good tonk,or when the wind favours you like invariably between May and August on the East -coast where you have the off-shore like a coconut every early morning.
p.s I am totally with you on the breaking strains,but for somebody with for example an Ultegra 5500 size reel fishing for edibles,it could be very cost-effective to fish 300meters of the .33mm Berkley mono at 10kg.s of breaking strain as opposed to say 30lbs braid at similar diameter ,yet 3xtimes the price.
The difference In casting distances between braid and mono would be as a resut of
1. The manner in which the line releases off the spool, mono with stretch and braid without.
2. Mono spools can be filled way more reducing the interference of the lip of the reel.
3. The slickness of mono results in much less air resistance than braid and this is possibly the biggest contributor to the casting differences.
Very many people fish ultegras with mono already, I see it all the time in reels we service. So that option is already used and yes the 0.33 vs the 0.40 or even 0.45mm is a great option. BUT
1. The manner in which the line releases off the spool, mono with stretch and braid without.
2. Mono spools can be filled way more reducing the interference of the lip of the reel.
3. The slickness of mono results in much less air resistance than braid and this is possibly the biggest contributor to the casting differences.
Very many people fish ultegras with mono already, I see it all the time in reels we service. So that option is already used and yes the 0.33 vs the 0.40 or even 0.45mm is a great option. BUT
Many fish braid for bite detection and fishing a 0.21mm 30lbs alows you to fish smaller weights and still hold ground.
Don't know what the new Berkley costs but assum it will bemore expensive than their Trilene?
0.21mm HMP will cost you R270for 300mand you connect it to an equivalent backing that you would have behind the berkley.
I always advise guys fishing grinders to get 3 spools for the ultegra 14000.
1 x 14000 spool filled with 600m 50lbs
1 x 14000 spool filled with 0.40 or 0.45mm for fishing in foul terrain for protection against the rocks
1 x 10000 spool filled with 20-30lbs low diameter braid for distance eds fishing
Don't know what the new Berkley costs but assum it will bemore expensive than their Trilene?
0.21mm HMP will cost you R270for 300mand you connect it to an equivalent backing that you would have behind the berkley.
I always advise guys fishing grinders to get 3 spools for the ultegra 14000.
1 x 14000 spool filled with 600m 50lbs
1 x 14000 spool filled with 0.40 or 0.45mm for fishing in foul terrain for protection against the rocks
1 x 10000 spool filled with 20-30lbs low diameter braid for distance eds fishing
kitefisher
Sealiner
Solid advice on the 3/spool system for Ultegra 14K,makes perfect sense.
Without digressing,I based the .33mm mono compared to 30lbs braid-assumption on the diameter of the Suffix 832/30lbs at .35mm diameter as per your first post.
If the Berkley Mono cost R200-00 for 600meters,it would then only cost you R100-00 per 300meter topping. Obviously ''durability''plays a role,and only time will tell that of the Mono.
Bite-detection may not be as direct on the Mono,but the ''slickness''may again account for less resistance to side-currents than braid of similar diameter.Fishing the mono off a 50% of breaking strain drag i.e (5kg drag),and adding the ''forgiveness''of ''stretch'' in mono,could make for some interesting results on medium to bigger fish.
Having probably gone totally off-topic here already,I might as well just ponder one more scenario. I suspect it is common knowledge that an overfilled ''braid-spool'' leads to all kinds of havoc when used for spinning with ''light-ish''lures. But I have often wondered what would happen if one ''overfilled'' a braid spool similar to how one can a mono-spool with similar diameter lines,and then use it for SIMILAR application,i.e. baitfishing with a heavier sinker and only making perhaps 10 casts in a session with say 15-20 minute intervals,as opposed to making easily 75-100 continuous casts when throwing lure/plug/spoon.
Again ,thanks for a factually based topic.
Without digressing,I based the .33mm mono compared to 30lbs braid-assumption on the diameter of the Suffix 832/30lbs at .35mm diameter as per your first post.
If the Berkley Mono cost R200-00 for 600meters,it would then only cost you R100-00 per 300meter topping. Obviously ''durability''plays a role,and only time will tell that of the Mono.
Bite-detection may not be as direct on the Mono,but the ''slickness''may again account for less resistance to side-currents than braid of similar diameter.Fishing the mono off a 50% of breaking strain drag i.e (5kg drag),and adding the ''forgiveness''of ''stretch'' in mono,could make for some interesting results on medium to bigger fish.
Having probably gone totally off-topic here already,I might as well just ponder one more scenario. I suspect it is common knowledge that an overfilled ''braid-spool'' leads to all kinds of havoc when used for spinning with ''light-ish''lures. But I have often wondered what would happen if one ''overfilled'' a braid spool similar to how one can a mono-spool with similar diameter lines,and then use it for SIMILAR application,i.e. baitfishing with a heavier sinker and only making perhaps 10 casts in a session with say 15-20 minute intervals,as opposed to making easily 75-100 continuous casts when throwing lure/plug/spoon.
Again ,thanks for a factually based topic.
Came out further in another thread. 0.35mm 30lbs 832 Breaks way over 40lbs and is of a different construction and will last at least 3-5 years on a grinder spool.
As for filling big bait fishing grinders fuller. The result is bent guides and cracked blanks. Been there done the tests. Had 4 customers bring in rods, one that had a bent guide (200lbs leader wrapped on the K guide)was damaged using a Bullseye and 68lbs braid, others that the clients were getting ready to sell their Ultegras out of pure frustration.
On the all 4 I removed 40-70m of braid sent them off with the same rod and they haven't looked back since. Literally .7-1.4mm more spool space and no more problems with FRAPS.
http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=86182&forum_id=1
As for filling big bait fishing grinders fuller. The result is bent guides and cracked blanks. Been there done the tests. Had 4 customers bring in rods, one that had a bent guide (200lbs leader wrapped on the K guide)was damaged using a Bullseye and 68lbs braid, others that the clients were getting ready to sell their Ultegras out of pure frustration.
On the all 4 I removed 40-70m of braid sent them off with the same rod and they haven't looked back since. Literally .7-1.4mm more spool space and no more problems with FRAPS.
http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=86182&forum_id=1
kitefisher
Sealiner
Not quite sure if any of those Shimano's that the staff were using were quite used from shore for baitfishing by them,but yes the ''underfill''wil allow less/''shorter length of coils'' to come off the spool.This would allow for less line ''floating''around waiting to get pulled through the guides by the lead/lure/spoon.
I also understand that the 20meter ''gain''and the 5 meter ''loss'',as stated in the link ,would be relative to overall casting distance.This gain as you mention would probably be solely attributed to ''caster-confidence''and probably not the dynamics of the line coming off the spool?(again guessing here),because if the same caster were to cast both line-levels (full and underfilled) with equal effort,then surely the fuller spool should go further.
I also understand that the 20meter ''gain''and the 5 meter ''loss'',as stated in the link ,would be relative to overall casting distance.This gain as you mention would probably be solely attributed to ''caster-confidence''and probably not the dynamics of the line coming off the spool?(again guessing here),because if the same caster were to cast both line-levels (full and underfilled) with equal effort,then surely the fuller spool should go further.