ok, bearings nou weer in orde.
which means, the dsi is better for locating , finding fish, but is limited to a depth of 76meters.
which means, the dsi is better for locating , finding fish, but is limited to a depth of 76meters.
[b]StructureScan[/b] (Lowrance LSS-1) certainly do
- Thread starter Fishton
- Start date
Hi Guys - back again. After round 2 with Fishton, I contacted Lowrance SA. Had an immediate response from a really nice guy who was extremely helpful. He is John Minnie (techchincal manager). He is also a fisherman and uses an HDS7 with Structurescan off Durbs.
Fishton (John form FishTec) has started a new thread here and I'm sure has the knowledge to answer our questions so I'll try again.
I'm going to try to share my research and my dilema of what to choose for my new boat.
Before we go further I am still concerned about the following:
1) Lowrance makes a single range of products for both fresh and salt water.
2) Salt water reduces the performance of any fishfinder when compared to fresh water - a fact.
3) We saltwater anglers generally fish in much deeper and rougher waters than bass fishermen. I have fished the east coast of the USA from NY south to Florida and the Carribean - and the Great Lakes. I have fished our coast from the Cape to Natal since 1971. In my opionion,a nice day at sea here would be considered "a Small Craft Warning" day in the USA and they have never seen the ground swells we have along our coast - which makes any sonar fishfinder harder to read.
4) The HDS series is unlike any product Lowarance has ever sold (or that I have ever bought)- look at thier catalog. Thier other products start from basic black and white, greyscale, and colour screen, either single or dual frequency, watts power (more is generally better) and ALL COME WITH TRANSDUCERS - so you just buy, mount the transducer add 12v and you have an easy choice and solution. Prices jump in small increments and it's easy to see what you are getting for your bucks.
Example:
Mark 5X - 5" mono screen 1600W 200khz R2 800.00
Mark 5X Pro - same screen 2400W 83/200khz R 3 350.00
Simple decision for R550 I'm getting 50% more power and dual frequency which is useful - so I bought a 5XPro - and love it.
Elite-5x 5" colour screen, 4,000 w. 83/200 kHz R6 800.00
Again easy to see why - colour screen and 4000W (almost double the power of the Mark5X-Pro for an extra R3 450.00.
Elite 5 adds GPS to the 5X at R7 890.00 - or R1 100 more which I think is worth it.
5) The HDS series varies hugely in price from 5" to 10" base unit as follows (Lowrance SA prices for Gen2 HDS - all include GPS):
HDS-5 5" Colour. 480x480 pixels. R 10 375.00
HDS-7 6.4" Colour. 480x6400 pixels R 16 320.00
HDS-8 8.4" Colour. 600x800 pixels R 26 740.00
HDS-10 10.4" Colour. 600x800 pixels R 34 830.00
All are 30,000 watts 50/83/200 kHz
SO HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY R24 455.00 price difference for what appears to be the same unit with the same power (30,000 watts), colour screens, BY JUST GOING FROM 5" to 10" screen?
AND THAT'S NOT ALL - for the first time you new Lowrance DOES NOT COME WITH A TRANSDUCER. All models use the same transducers - if you want it to work then choose between-.
HDS transom mount transducer prices:
83/200KHz (power not specified) R1 020.00
50/200KHz 600 Watt R2 040.00
50/200KHZ 1000 Watt R11 260.00
That's correct an R10 240.00 DIFFERENCE IN PRICES for a transducer. All the HDS units claim 30,000 watts power so why a 600 Watt or 1Kw transducer?
BUT THAT DOESN'T GIVE YOU STRUCTURE SCAN - which is the Downscan/Sidescan fancy pictures we see in the Lowrance adds and brochures - which is really why I wanted one.
Lowarnce SA price list shows:
LSS-1 Structure Scan Transducer for R1 020.00 which is a bargain but Fish-Tec quoted me:
"The price on the LSS-1 structure scan has increased with new stock and is now R7600.00." - which I think is correct and probably retails for around R8 000.00 as I asked FishTec for their best prices to compare with other suppliers.
OK - so let me sum up: If we want a new Lowrance HDS our choices are:
HDS5 with 83/200KHz transducer R11 395.00
up to
HDS10 with 1Kw 50/200KHz transducer R46 090.00
This is juat a basic Fishfinder/GPS - no extras.
If we compare the basic HDS5 with the Elite5 (both are 5" colour GPS/SONAR combos) the HDS5 is R3 505.00 more. The GPS is basically the same but the HDS5 sonar is 30,000 watts vs ELITE5's 4000 watts. That's a huge difference in power in the sonar world. Plus Lowrance claims the HDS has "broadband" sonar which is supposed to be a superior technology.
Is it really? - and can you give us some examples please.
Now the real reason I want an HDS unit is for the Structure Scan pics which is how they advertise it and all the fancy images Fishton has on this post so lets compare again:
Our HDS price range is now from -
HDS5 with 83/200Khz and Structurescan R19 395.00
to an
HDS10 with 1Kw 50/200 and Structurescan R54 090.00
or a price difference of R34 695.00 for two units with the same rated power and same GPS. How do you justify the R34k+ from a 5" screen to an 10" screen?
Before you budget add another R2k-R5k for charts for all GPS units.
Yes, you can add more to the HDS series like Radars, Ethernet hubs, and sound systems - but I'd prefer not to confuse things further and stick to the Fishfinder for now.
OK Fishton - over to you -
How do we choose?
How do we justify the price differences?
Please help us here:
Fishton (John form FishTec) has started a new thread here and I'm sure has the knowledge to answer our questions so I'll try again.
I'm going to try to share my research and my dilema of what to choose for my new boat.
Before we go further I am still concerned about the following:
1) Lowrance makes a single range of products for both fresh and salt water.
2) Salt water reduces the performance of any fishfinder when compared to fresh water - a fact.
3) We saltwater anglers generally fish in much deeper and rougher waters than bass fishermen. I have fished the east coast of the USA from NY south to Florida and the Carribean - and the Great Lakes. I have fished our coast from the Cape to Natal since 1971. In my opionion,a nice day at sea here would be considered "a Small Craft Warning" day in the USA and they have never seen the ground swells we have along our coast - which makes any sonar fishfinder harder to read.
4) The HDS series is unlike any product Lowarance has ever sold (or that I have ever bought)- look at thier catalog. Thier other products start from basic black and white, greyscale, and colour screen, either single or dual frequency, watts power (more is generally better) and ALL COME WITH TRANSDUCERS - so you just buy, mount the transducer add 12v and you have an easy choice and solution. Prices jump in small increments and it's easy to see what you are getting for your bucks.
Example:
Mark 5X - 5" mono screen 1600W 200khz R2 800.00
Mark 5X Pro - same screen 2400W 83/200khz R 3 350.00
Simple decision for R550 I'm getting 50% more power and dual frequency which is useful - so I bought a 5XPro - and love it.
Elite-5x 5" colour screen, 4,000 w. 83/200 kHz R6 800.00
Again easy to see why - colour screen and 4000W (almost double the power of the Mark5X-Pro for an extra R3 450.00.
Elite 5 adds GPS to the 5X at R7 890.00 - or R1 100 more which I think is worth it.
5) The HDS series varies hugely in price from 5" to 10" base unit as follows (Lowrance SA prices for Gen2 HDS - all include GPS):
HDS-5 5" Colour. 480x480 pixels. R 10 375.00
HDS-7 6.4" Colour. 480x6400 pixels R 16 320.00
HDS-8 8.4" Colour. 600x800 pixels R 26 740.00
HDS-10 10.4" Colour. 600x800 pixels R 34 830.00
All are 30,000 watts 50/83/200 kHz
SO HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY R24 455.00 price difference for what appears to be the same unit with the same power (30,000 watts), colour screens, BY JUST GOING FROM 5" to 10" screen?
AND THAT'S NOT ALL - for the first time you new Lowrance DOES NOT COME WITH A TRANSDUCER. All models use the same transducers - if you want it to work then choose between-.
HDS transom mount transducer prices:
83/200KHz (power not specified) R1 020.00
50/200KHz 600 Watt R2 040.00
50/200KHZ 1000 Watt R11 260.00
That's correct an R10 240.00 DIFFERENCE IN PRICES for a transducer. All the HDS units claim 30,000 watts power so why a 600 Watt or 1Kw transducer?
BUT THAT DOESN'T GIVE YOU STRUCTURE SCAN - which is the Downscan/Sidescan fancy pictures we see in the Lowrance adds and brochures - which is really why I wanted one.
Lowarnce SA price list shows:
LSS-1 Structure Scan Transducer for R1 020.00 which is a bargain but Fish-Tec quoted me:
"The price on the LSS-1 structure scan has increased with new stock and is now R7600.00." - which I think is correct and probably retails for around R8 000.00 as I asked FishTec for their best prices to compare with other suppliers.
OK - so let me sum up: If we want a new Lowrance HDS our choices are:
HDS5 with 83/200KHz transducer R11 395.00
up to
HDS10 with 1Kw 50/200KHz transducer R46 090.00
This is juat a basic Fishfinder/GPS - no extras.
If we compare the basic HDS5 with the Elite5 (both are 5" colour GPS/SONAR combos) the HDS5 is R3 505.00 more. The GPS is basically the same but the HDS5 sonar is 30,000 watts vs ELITE5's 4000 watts. That's a huge difference in power in the sonar world. Plus Lowrance claims the HDS has "broadband" sonar which is supposed to be a superior technology.
Is it really? - and can you give us some examples please.
Now the real reason I want an HDS unit is for the Structure Scan pics which is how they advertise it and all the fancy images Fishton has on this post so lets compare again:
Our HDS price range is now from -
HDS5 with 83/200Khz and Structurescan R19 395.00
to an
HDS10 with 1Kw 50/200 and Structurescan R54 090.00
or a price difference of R34 695.00 for two units with the same rated power and same GPS. How do you justify the R34k+ from a 5" screen to an 10" screen?
Before you budget add another R2k-R5k for charts for all GPS units.
Yes, you can add more to the HDS series like Radars, Ethernet hubs, and sound systems - but I'd prefer not to confuse things further and stick to the Fishfinder for now.
OK Fishton - over to you -
How do we choose?
How do we justify the price differences?
Please help us here:
Al wrote:
Excluding - Fishfinder
Excluding - GPS
Excluding - Mapping capability
Excluding - Ethernet capability
Excluding - N2k capability
Excluding - dual card reader
Excluding - Waterproofing
Excluding - multiple mount support
Excluding - Just looking damn cool. :merm
Do a search on the net for the price of a 1650nit 10.4" screen.
Excluding - Fishfinder
Excluding - GPS
Excluding - Mapping capability
Excluding - Ethernet capability
Excluding - N2k capability
Excluding - dual card reader
Excluding - Waterproofing
Excluding - multiple mount support
Excluding - Just looking damn cool. :merm
Fishton wrote:
John - please - you refused to answer my questions in the last post. I have taken a lot of time and effort with this one.
John Minnie is Technical Manager and helped me to understand some of the technical differences - none of which are mentioned in my post. He is not in sales.
You are selling these units and all the above questions are about how I, as a customer, am having difficulty choosing the correct Lowrance product.
Please start at the top and answer my questions so that we can all better understand the Lowrance HDS range of products.
John - please - you refused to answer my questions in the last post. I have taken a lot of time and effort with this one.
John Minnie is Technical Manager and helped me to understand some of the technical differences - none of which are mentioned in my post. He is not in sales.
You are selling these units and all the above questions are about how I, as a customer, am having difficulty choosing the correct Lowrance product.
Please start at the top and answer my questions so that we can all better understand the Lowrance HDS range of products.
What is a NIT?
A NIT is a measurement of light in candelas per meter square (Cd/m2)
For an LCD monitor it is brightness out of the front panel of the display. A NIT is a good basic reference when comparing brightness from monitor to monitor. Most desktop LCD's or Notebook LCD's have a brightness of 200 to 250 Nits. These standard LCD's are not readable in direct or even indirect sunlight as they become washed out.
A NIT is a measurement of light in candelas per meter square (Cd/m2)
For an LCD monitor it is brightness out of the front panel of the display. A NIT is a good basic reference when comparing brightness from monitor to monitor. Most desktop LCD's or Notebook LCD's have a brightness of 200 to 250 Nits. These standard LCD's are not readable in direct or even indirect sunlight as they become washed out.
Al,
did you read the articals on fishton website?
many questions will be answered there.
yes i agree with you. how do you justify that amount of money.
a bigger screen would enable you to see more easier.
but do keep in mind, like you said, our swell here is much bigger then other places.
no wonder, that we are the only people, that do surf launching.
USA is n klomp moffies.
if you have the money to buy more bling, do it.
many guys are happy with their hds 7 or even 10.
when i did my research, it was stated get a good fishfinder chart plotter combo.
i believe the elite 5 does this
the nice thing is, we have john easton, that does help
where he can.
i have personally send him some emails
his response was very quick.
his information was to the point.
the best thing to understand your fishfinder is practise makes perfect.
the more you play with it, the more you understand it.
the more you can interpret what the unit sees.
ek voel sleg dat ek nie my fishfinder deur john gekoop het nie, want hy het regtig al uit sy pad gegaan om my te help.
i do believe, that you will find the unit you are looking for. it might be spending 8 grand or 50 grand.
ss
did you read the articals on fishton website?
many questions will be answered there.
yes i agree with you. how do you justify that amount of money.
a bigger screen would enable you to see more easier.
but do keep in mind, like you said, our swell here is much bigger then other places.
no wonder, that we are the only people, that do surf launching.
USA is n klomp moffies.
if you have the money to buy more bling, do it.
many guys are happy with their hds 7 or even 10.
when i did my research, it was stated get a good fishfinder chart plotter combo.
i believe the elite 5 does this
the nice thing is, we have john easton, that does help
where he can.
i have personally send him some emails
his response was very quick.
his information was to the point.
the best thing to understand your fishfinder is practise makes perfect.
the more you play with it, the more you understand it.
the more you can interpret what the unit sees.
ek voel sleg dat ek nie my fishfinder deur john gekoop het nie, want hy het regtig al uit sy pad gegaan om my te help.
i do believe, that you will find the unit you are looking for. it might be spending 8 grand or 50 grand.
ss
BUSH1 wrote:
This is unfortunately what you will see on your StructureScan if you are trying to view structure - i.e the bottom offshore in swell and choppy conditions.
StructureScan for shallow water anglers, such as dams, lakes, estuaries and harbours is brilliant, but make no mistake, these waters can also get choppy and will ultimately streak your SideScan rendering it near useless.
So if you want to use StructureScan for offshore bottom scanning, you will need to buy, or make yourself a towfish and attach your LSS-1 transducer to it.
Lets get back on topic here by replying to this post.
This is unfortunately what you will see on your StructureScan if you are trying to view structure - i.e the bottom offshore in swell and choppy conditions.
StructureScan for shallow water anglers, such as dams, lakes, estuaries and harbours is brilliant, but make no mistake, these waters can also get choppy and will ultimately streak your SideScan rendering it near useless.
So if you want to use StructureScan for offshore bottom scanning, you will need to buy, or make yourself a towfish and attach your LSS-1 transducer to it.
As you can imagine, pulling a towfish and fishing at the same time will cause all sorts of problems.
But if you are really serious about your fishing grounds, why not build a towfish and go out on a very calm day without the fishing rods and go map your local reef.
With Lowrance's new HDS Gen2 StructureMap feature, it will take the SideScan data and convert it to a map for you automatically. That reef, wreck etc. isn't going anywhere soon, so you now have a saved map that can be backed up to your SD card and saved on the hard drive of your home computer for safe keeping.
So no matter how rough the conditions are the next time you go out, your sidescan map will be towfish / calm sea picture-perfect!!
http://www.lowrance.com/Products/Marine/HDS-Gen2/StructureMap-View/#c
But if you are really serious about your fishing grounds, why not build a towfish and go out on a very calm day without the fishing rods and go map your local reef.
With Lowrance's new HDS Gen2 StructureMap feature, it will take the SideScan data and convert it to a map for you automatically. That reef, wreck etc. isn't going anywhere soon, so you now have a saved map that can be backed up to your SD card and saved on the hard drive of your home computer for safe keeping.
So no matter how rough the conditions are the next time you go out, your sidescan map will be towfish / calm sea picture-perfect!!
http://www.lowrance.com/Products/Marine/HDS-Gen2/StructureMap-View/#c
Thanks for the reply fishton now at least i know the truth from a expert .
Jhon i still feel that lowrance has an obligation to use similar picture then if the advertise in marine boating magazines , as the images on the adds i feel is misleading .
And the consumer end up buying some thing that is not suited for the application .
Please give me your thoughts on this .
NB !!!!( just for the record this is nothing against lowrance products they make nice units this is only about structure scan for marine use )
Jhon i still feel that lowrance has an obligation to use similar picture then if the advertise in marine boating magazines , as the images on the adds i feel is misleading .
And the consumer end up buying some thing that is not suited for the application .
Please give me your thoughts on this .
NB !!!!( just for the record this is nothing against lowrance products they make nice units this is only about structure scan for marine use )
BUSH1 wrote:
A True Story:-
A customer phoned me up a few weeks back and was expressing his disappointment in the LSS-1.
"Why?" - I asked. He said that he has been driving around for hours now and hasn't seen anything like the screenshot he saw on the internet.
"What screenshot was that?" - I asked.
(this was the one he was referring to)
I immediately thought what an expensive call this must be, and when I asked if he was calling me from the Baltic Sea off Finland near Helsinki, where this screenshot was taken, he replied - "No I'm out at sea off East London in the Eastern Cape."
Me .... ((wideeye))
Every screenshot that Lowrance has used for advertising has been the real deal, so we cannot accuse them of false advertising.
A True Story:-
A customer phoned me up a few weeks back and was expressing his disappointment in the LSS-1.
"Why?" - I asked. He said that he has been driving around for hours now and hasn't seen anything like the screenshot he saw on the internet.
"What screenshot was that?" - I asked.
(this was the one he was referring to)
I immediately thought what an expensive call this must be, and when I asked if he was calling me from the Baltic Sea off Finland near Helsinki, where this screenshot was taken, he replied - "No I'm out at sea off East London in the Eastern Cape."
Me .... ((wideeye))
So how do we use StructureScan as a 'FishScan'?
This is usually where user error kicks in, purely due to a lack of understanding of the technology.
Frequency:
Always use 455kHz and NOT 800kHz for finding fish. This is because the 455kHz has a better depth penetration and a wider (front - back) coverage.
Range:
The Golden Rule to using your SideScan for finding fish is to apply the same range principle as conventional sonar - just more than actual depth.
For example:-
If you are in 30ft of water, set your range to 40ft.
If you are in 100ft of water, set your range to 120ft.
If you are in 180ft of water, set your range to 200ft.
The reason for this is that you are only concerned with the echoes from objects in the water column, not the bottom.
Keep in mind that with SideScan we are not only looking at the water column between the boat/transducer and the sea bed, but to the left and right as well.
So if you are in a 100ft of water, and your range is set to 120ft, your left to right coverage is actually 240ft in total.
This is usually where user error kicks in, purely due to a lack of understanding of the technology.
Frequency:
Always use 455kHz and NOT 800kHz for finding fish. This is because the 455kHz has a better depth penetration and a wider (front - back) coverage.
Range:
The Golden Rule to using your SideScan for finding fish is to apply the same range principle as conventional sonar - just more than actual depth.
For example:-
If you are in 30ft of water, set your range to 40ft.
If you are in 100ft of water, set your range to 120ft.
If you are in 180ft of water, set your range to 200ft.
The reason for this is that you are only concerned with the echoes from objects in the water column, not the bottom.
Keep in mind that with SideScan we are not only looking at the water column between the boat/transducer and the sea bed, but to the left and right as well.
So if you are in a 100ft of water, and your range is set to 120ft, your left to right coverage is actually 240ft in total.
BUSH1 wrote:
Hi Bush1,
I agree with you. The images may be genuine Lowrance but can still be misleading. Sea fishing and freshwater fishing are two entirely different applications. Lowrance should have separate examples for each market as all sonars are less effective in salt water.
Before I beleive the adverising applies to our type of offshore fishing I would like to know:
1) If the image is from fresh or salt water.
2) What were the conditions (you don't often get a two meter swell in fresh water).
3) What depth?
If the shipwreck John keeps showing us is from the Great Lakes (fresh water) it means nothing to me.
I want to see images from local users or at least confirmation that their Structure Scan is working and worth the money.
At R50k for an HDS10 it's the price of an engine for some of us, so John's pics, though impressive, may not apply to us.
Hi Bush1,
I agree with you. The images may be genuine Lowrance but can still be misleading. Sea fishing and freshwater fishing are two entirely different applications. Lowrance should have separate examples for each market as all sonars are less effective in salt water.
Before I beleive the adverising applies to our type of offshore fishing I would like to know:
1) If the image is from fresh or salt water.
2) What were the conditions (you don't often get a two meter swell in fresh water).
3) What depth?
If the shipwreck John keeps showing us is from the Great Lakes (fresh water) it means nothing to me.
I want to see images from local users or at least confirmation that their Structure Scan is working and worth the money.
At R50k for an HDS10 it's the price of an engine for some of us, so John's pics, though impressive, may not apply to us.
Fishton wrote:
OK - now you at least show us an image which is real, and proves that in swell/choppy conditions (a normal day off our coast), it is of little use to us. Thanks for your honesty.
But - you can't be serious - you now want us to buy (OR BUILD!) a Hydrographic Survey TOWFISH for good images in all conditions!
At what price? Attached to what? Or should we get the ship that goes with it your img?
If I were a bass fisherman in the USA competing for big bucks - I would buy an HDS10 tomorrow. But I think that John's images here make it clear that it's not for us.
Oh, and John, thanks again for ignoring my post and all the research I did.
But if you are really serious about your fishing grounds, why not build a towfish and go out on a very calm day without the fishing rods and go map your local reef.Â
So no matter how rough the conditions are the next time you go out, your sidescan map will be towfish / calm sea picture-perfect!!
http://www.lowrance.com/Products/Marine/HDS-Gen2/StructureMap-View/#c
OK - now you at least show us an image which is real, and proves that in swell/choppy conditions (a normal day off our coast), it is of little use to us. Thanks for your honesty.
But - you can't be serious - you now want us to buy (OR BUILD!) a Hydrographic Survey TOWFISH for good images in all conditions!
At what price? Attached to what? Or should we get the ship that goes with it your img?
If I were a bass fisherman in the USA competing for big bucks - I would buy an HDS10 tomorrow. But I think that John's images here make it clear that it's not for us.
Oh, and John, thanks again for ignoring my post and all the research I did.
benniejordaan
Sealiner
Thanks for all the info, Fishton. It is guys like yourself that makes Sealine what it is. This is just another one of those incredibly informative posts. Seriouse anglers would be insane not to take the advice you give seriously.
Your time and effort is appreciated by us all!
Your time and effort is appreciated by us all!
John
is there any other aspects, that we need to consider when deciding what we should buy.
ie:
conventional or lss
ss
is there any other aspects, that we need to consider when deciding what we should buy.
ie:
conventional or lss
ss
Ski-Boat - HDS (5,7,8 or 10) Gen2, StructureScan (LSS-1) and a matching Airmar transducer (depending on your needs).
RIB / Jetski - HDS5 or 7, or any of the Elite units. My personal choice is an Elite-5 DSI.
Fishing Paddleski - Any Mark or Elite system. My choice would be either the Mark-4 or Elite-4 DSI.
For detailed information
RIB / Jetski - HDS5 or 7, or any of the Elite units. My personal choice is an Elite-5 DSI.
Fishing Paddleski - Any Mark or Elite system. My choice would be either the Mark-4 or Elite-4 DSI.
For detailed information
The biggest problem with SideScan offshore is not so much the pitching, but the rolling of the boat that causes the streaking.
I wish someone with some stainless steel knowledge would make up something like this device I have designed - it would be interesting to see if it makes a difference.
I wish someone with some stainless steel knowledge would make up something like this device I have designed - it would be interesting to see if it makes a difference.
