Reels for De Hoop Nature Reserve

[Pylstert]

FLUKE wrote:

The ARB is designed to hold x amount of force before it will slip. Once the force exceeds x then the handle will turn backwards until the dog pawl engages. The pawls engage with very little backlash so you'll never feel it.

If you fish light line and light drags then you may never exceed x so you never engage the dog pawl.

All my shark reels have imprints of the dog gear teeth in the dog pawls. That added to my reference of the Finnor20 above prove that the dog pawl carries the load at high drag settings.

But Whaler is right then and you re-iterate that, the ARB is the first line of defense against backlash. The pawl is a back up and the silent pawls are prone to failure because they might have to much sticky grease on them or the little blade springs are not sitting tightly on the anti-reverse gear and when the bearing fails it doesn't kick in. Like what happened with your Fin-Nor. The pin that holds them can also sometimes shear off, especially if the pin is a cast pin that is part of the frame. The problem also with the silent pawl is that it slams into the anti-reverse ratchet, that's why they get damaged. If you have a spring loaded pawl, both the bearing and pawl work at the same time. An SL30 doesn't have an ARB, that's why it has so much handle slop, but it has a a rock solid spring loaded anti-reverse pawl.

 

[Whaler]

Pylstert wrote:

FLUKE wrote:

The ARB is designed to hold x amount of force before it will slip. Once the force exceeds x then the handle will turn backwards until the dog pawl engages. The pawls engage with very little backlash so you'll never feel it.

If you fish light line and light drags then you may never exceed x so you never engage the dog pawl.

All my shark reels have imprints of the dog gear teeth in the dog pawls. That added to my reference of the Finnor20 above prove that the dog pawl carries the load at high drag settings.

But Whaler is right then and you re-iterate that, the ARB is the first line of defense against backlash. The pawl is a back up and the silent pawls are prone to failure because they might have to much sticky grease on them or the little blade springs are not sitting tightly on the anti-reverse gear and when the bearing fails it doesn't kick in. Like what happened with your Fin-Nor. The pin that holds them can also sometimes shear off, especially if the pin is a cast pin that is part of the frame. The problem also with the silent pawl is that it slams into the anti-reverse ratchet, that's why they get damaged. If you have a spring loaded pawl, both the bearing and pawl work at the same time. An SL30 doesn't have an ARB, that's why it has so much handle slop, but it has a a rock solid spring loaded anti-reverse pawl.

Thanks Pylstert! I also think I'm right...lol some more info on the AR, not all AR Bearings are created equal, they might be interchangeable but their load carrying capacity is definitely not the same, the trini/torium is capable of carrying a maximum of 7kgs while the Diawa saltist/saltiga bearing can carry a bit more, that looks identical baring a small colour code that shows you witch one he is, I find it quite amusing that Old Salt assumes I don't know how a bearing works? I work on Transmissions for a living, have been for 17years, most auto boxes have AR bearings in them, we call them sprag bearings, each gearbox has at least 2 of them they stop your car from rolling backwards when you are at the traffic light, but let's get back to the Dark art of fishing reels, I will try to get some info from shimano so we can hear it from the Horses mouth?

 

[Whaler]

I forgot to mention that the drag is also designed to have a maximum load of 7 kgs, coincidence? No! It was designed that way, no one will design a 30lb drag when they know the bearing can't handle it? But ja, let's see if I can get hold of Shimano...

 

[Whaler]

One more thing! The shimano DC AR Bearing does not carry more load then the old trini, any body that knows anything about sprag/AR bearings will tell you that the size of the actual roller and the angle that it was cut at determines it's load carrying ability, the DC however is a sealed bearing and the fact that it does not get too much grease, oil or water makes it last not its size.

See OS, I can also slip in those insults? Why don't we just discuss the fishing reels and leave the innuendos out of it? I mostly value your comments although I don't always agree, I still value your opinion though.

Thanks

Darius

 

[Koper]

http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=48691&forum_id=10

This has been with us for a while

 

[Whaler]

Koper wrote:

http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=48691&forum_id=10

This has been with us for a while

Same argument? At least fluke agreed with me then? Not sure if OS was doing reels back then? Old CVP was all the rage then! Long before he changed his name to Chris?lol

 

[FLUKE]

That's the nice thing about having a desire for knowledge bigger than my ego. 4 years ago when I made that comment I had just started shark fishing and my experience was based on edible fishing. That opinion has not changed, I've made it clear in this thread that under normal fishing with a fully functioning ARB the ARB is capable of being the primary anti-reverse system.
Subsequently 4 years of experience has taught me that under shark fishing conditions the ARB might be the primary line of defense but I do not believe it carries the load, in fact I've proved it does not carry the load.

I'm not going to argue about physics because I know very little about it but I'd be very surprised if 7kg on the spool equates to 7kg at the ARB. You have a constantly changing spool diameter going through a 1 to 6 gear ratio but fair enough there would probably be less than 7kg at the handle shaft so maybe..............what the heck I've seen many an ARB in good condition slip and that's why I have now spring loaded the dog pawl on every reel except my Saltist 30 but considering I've now spooled it with 50lb Braid it may also be up for spring loading soon.

 

[FLUKE]

Pylstert wrote:

FLUKE wrote:

The ARB is designed to hold x amount of force before it will slip. Once the force exceeds x then the handle will turn backwards until the dog pawl engages. The pawls engage with very little backlash so you'll never feel it.

If you fish light line and light drags then you may never exceed x so you never engage the dog pawl.

All my shark reels have imprints of the dog gear teeth in the dog pawls. That added to my reference of the Finnor20 above prove that the dog pawl carries the load at high drag settings.

But Whaler is right then and you re-iterate that, the ARB is the first line of defense against backlash. The pawl is a back up and the silent pawls are prone to failure because they might have to much sticky grease on them or the little blade springs are not sitting tightly on the anti-reverse gear and when the bearing fails it doesn't kick in. Like what happened with your Fin-Nor. The pin that holds them can also sometimes shear off, especially if the pin is a cast pin that is part of the frame. The problem also with the silent pawl is that it slams into the anti-reverse ratchet, that's why they get damaged. If you have a spring loaded pawl, both the bearing and pawl work at the same time. An SL30 doesn't have an ARB, that's why it has so much handle slop, but it has a a rock solid spring loaded anti-reverse pawl.

I'm not sure why there seems to be this opinion that I disagreed with whaler. Maybe my grammar is not as eloquent as some but I agree my 1st comment was not that clear but I thought my subsequent comments made my opinion very clear. I agree in part but do not believe it is a suitable primary system under SA shark conditions.

I know a SL30 has no ARB but in addition to that it has a VERY different Dog gear design so even a Torium with a completely non functioning ARB would have a lot less play than an SL30, that is why I do not feel a SL30 is a relevant reference point.

As for grease on the dog pawl of an Torium etc it does have an affect but even a completely clean pawl of that design has a fundamental flaw. It relies on the dog gear turning backwards for a certain distance for it to engage to the full depth of the teeth in the dog gear, HOWEVER if the dog pawl is half way between 2 teeth and it turns back there is not enough travel for the pawl to get to full depth before it meets the face of the dog teeth. This means that it is seated on half the tooth not the entire tooth. You are now getting the the full load spread over a smaller surface area right at the tip of the tooth. That is the weakest part of the dog gear and in the case of a Torium is not even nice and squarely cut so it can slip off. Alternatively the tip of the Dog Pawl gets squashed and it also results in it slipping off.
This is IMO why the Torium suffered the worst from ARB failures they have a poor dog tooth design and a soft pawl.

This is probably also the cause of the damage to the reel in the opening post.

Spring loading the pawl means it no longer requires any backward movement to reach the full engagement depth. That is why you can take a standard Torium and use the standard ARB Dog Gear and Dog Pawl and just by spring loading it you will have no failure, it's because the Dog Pawl is always 100% engaged rather that X% engaged.

That is also why my opinion is that on a heavy drag no ARB can survive without a fully functioning Dog gear and Pawl.

 

[Koper]

My bad for mentioning a SL30, I know the design is different, but what I was trying to explain was the backlash without an ARB.

Might have just used another reel for example who's ARB has failed, irrespective off the design, spring loaded or not, there will always be an amount off back play before the 2 engaged completely.

 

[old salt]

Hey Fluke, your comments were spot on the button as i said, there is no need to justify what you have said nor try to convince someone else by lengthy explanation. If they know better we succumb to that end of storey.
Your experience in what happend to you on roller slippage proves enough i am sure. When the roller slipped and if the dog was working correctly the handle would have remained static. What does happen very often on finnor and quantum reels when you swim corrosion and salt build up attacks the dog and dog post causing it to get stuck and not move freely as designed hence the failure.

What you said also is right 7 kilos on a full spool and 7 kilos pressure on and empty spool does not equate to the same kind of torque curve.

If someone else knows more they welcome to share that knowledge we all learn as we go along.

The entire point of adding to the forum is to add value for those who wish to accept and learn from others experience and enjoy that while enjoying with what we do, fishing talk. The manner if which we share this and question it is what determines the overall experience.

 

[Enigma]

My take

It is a Clutch Bearing to take up the load and stop sudden backlash that will damage and even snap Dog Pawls if violent stop starts experienced in heavy drag setting applications.

From Alan Tani's Site....

"Anti Reverse Bearings (ARB's) are a misunderstood device that gives our reels the sensation of tight slop free spool and crank control. They also absorb tremendous shock and provide redundant anti reverse for more reliable reel performance.

Since they are a critical and pricey part of our gear they are worth the effort to understand how they are used and function in out gear. ARB's are used as part of the anti reverse mechanism that prevents the spool/ crank from turning backwards. They are usually used along with anti reverse pawls as the ARB is a friction device and will slip at very high loads. They produce the feeling of infinitely fine detente where the pawls produce a ratchet type detente . They do more that just add feel they act over a small but finite reverse movement that produces a cushion or springy feel that is capable of reliably absorbing repeated high shock loads that could damage a pawl type anti reverse. The location of the ARB is usually in the handle crank shaft and acts directly on the handle motion. This means that the anti reverse loads act on the spool through the gears rather than directly on the spool drive (drag is in between).

It is a good thing that the ARB's absorb shock as it would damage gears if the were not shock absorbing. In my personal opinion the ARB would be best placed as part of the spool pinion support so it could act directly on the spool drive and support 3x to 6X more drag and reduce shock induce gear damage.

ARB's are not real bearings. The closest thing that is a bearing is the plastic cage that acts as a sleeve.
ARB's are really over run clutches that transfer energy in one direction of rotation and and free run in the other direction. They are typically used in higher power applications like the starter overrun clutch on the pinion or in automatic transmissions to keep the planetary from rotating backwards. The rollers do not roll (they do but only for a very short distance) but mostly slide against the shaft. They are not very good as bearings.

The design is simple and utilizes roller bearing/needle bearing parts. The rollers are held in a plastic spring loaded cage that pushes them in the direction that matches the direction of shaft rotation where the clutch is engaged. This means that the default state of the ARB is in the engaged state. The outer 'race' is a series of ramps (one ramp per roller) where the high side if the ram pushes the roller to the center of the ARB (this is the engaged side of the ramp). The low side of the ramp allows for free play when the shaft direction is in the overrun or free state. To Get into the free state the cage springs are compressed until the shaft slides and can no longer produce pressure to compress the spring any further. With this in mind the result is the free state is a state of sliding friction on the shaft. When engaged the rollers are literally jammed between the ramps and the shaft and the clutch mechanism is the metal to metal friction between the rollers, ramps, and shaft. All these parts are hardened and usually made of a high carbon steel.

Steel!!! yes that means that they will rust. A little corrosion pitting is really not a problem as the ARB's are a friction device. The problems in our reels is with accumulation of rust compacting around the rollers and springs (plastic wing like things in the cage) that inhibits the free movement of the rollers causing them to either not engage or possibly not to fully run free in the free state.

If you need to service ARB's what you are doing is:
Lubricating to allow free movement of the rollers.
Removing deposits that are inhibiting the roller movement up and down the ramps in the outer race.

How to clean:
The proper way is to pick out each roller from the cage. Clean the cage and the ramps as well as the rollers. treat all metal parts with a corrosion inhibitor (corrosionX and or TSI). DO NOT GREASE! Grease is too heavy and will inhibit proper motion of the rollers. Light oil or a very light grease/oil blend. Reinstall the rollers. Insert a shaft and test. In the engaged state they should not slip under heavy load. If they do the ramps and or the rollers are damaged beyond serviceability.

The quick and dirty is: Apply a penetrating/cleaning oil to the bearing. Run the shaft in and out and in the engaged and free directions. Clean out the residue with a cleaner (I use carb cleaner under low pressure) and pull a rag thrugh the bore to dredge out more junk. Repeat until you stop producing rust and goo. Lube and test.

An important note: The rollers are only loosely held in place and can be blown free easily. They are extremely hard to find if they fall out (small and don't make noise when landing). The ARB only work if all the rollers are in place. Loosing one will ruin the ARB. In desperation you might have a chance finding a lost roller with a big magnet sweeping the area (they are made of steel)."

 

[Enigma]

Suffice to say...... you need both..... ARB/Sprag to protect the Pawl and the Mechanical functioning Dog Pawl to provide the Dead Stop.

Without the ARB it won't be long before you shear the Dog Pawl Pin off .

Fit a Brand new ARB and then crank back hard oand constantly on the handle and the handle will slowly slip back till the Pawl engages in it's next slot.

 

[Whaler]

Ok, to summarize OS says Fluke is right? Fluke and I say the same thing? So am I right or wrong? (Whaler is nou baie confused) he,he...

 

[Whaler]

Enigma wrote:

Suffice to say...... you need both..... ARB/Sprag to protect the Pawl and the Mechanical functioning Dog Pawl to provide the Dead Stop.

Without the ARB it won't be long before you shear the Dog Pawl Pin off .

Fit a Brand new ARB and then crank back hard oand constantly on the handle and the handle will slowly slip back till the Pawl engages in it's next slot.

Craig, what you are describing is exactly what I said? The dog pawl is a back up when the AR exceeds it's load carrying capacity? Or is it my grammar letting me down again?

 

[Enigma]

It could be interpreted that the Dog Pawl is the main anti reverse mechanism and the Roller Clutch absorbs the backlash allowing for gradual positive engagement.

 

[Enigma]

Look at it this way.....

All Heavy Duty reels have multiple Mechanical pawl systems as anti-reverse. In a number of different mechanisms.

But they click and make a noise and they require more weight that the Roller Clutch/ Dog Pawl combination which is silent and infinite anti-reverse ie. Dead stop and zero backlash.

 

[FLUKE]

Enigma wrote:

It could be interpreted that the Dog Pawl is the main anti reverse mechanism and the Roller Clutch absorbs the backlash allowing for gradual positive engagement.

not sure why it's taken 2 pages for everyone to realise we all saying the same thing with a slight difference in vocabulary and emphasis

 

[FLUKE]

Enigma wrote:

Look at it this way.....

All Heavy Duty reels have multiple Mechanical pawl systems as anti-reverse. In a number of different mechanisms.

But they click and make a noise and they require more weight that the Roller Clutch/ Dog Pawl combination which is silent and infinite anti-reverse ie. Dead stop and zero backlash.

Agreed ALL heavy duty reels have a mechanical pawl system and for refinement someone decided to add a ARB, so which came first the Pawl or the ARB.

On the other end of my point a bass baitcaster or small grinder often has only and ARB because it does not have the drag capacity to make the ARB slip.

Different tools for different jobs and the designers of different brands probably can't agree whether the chicken or the egg came 1st either.

 

[Strepie]

FLUKE wrote:

Enigma wrote:

It could be interpreted that the Dog Pawl is the main anti reverse mechanism and the Roller Clutch absorbs the backlash allowing for gradual positive engagement.

not sure why it's taken 2 pages for everyone to realise we all saying the same thing with a slight difference in vocabulary and emphasis

Blame your teacher(s) LOL Just kidding!

 

[Enigma]

I however do see Whalers tongue in cheek point.