Multipliers, Z A style...questions,questions..questions

[Compass Two]

Mods, please re-allocate if I've posted in the wrong forum.

 

OK, I believe I now understand the reasons behind the use of these large reels and heavy weights..no problem there.

But what I would like to know, is how you prevent spool slip during the wind-up of the cast......purely from the aspect of reel size and not anything to do with accidental overload due to timing mistakes.

I would have thought that , such large sinkers and baits;the stretched grip on that large spool, would have made some amount of slippage inevitable.

On the site's photo's which show reels, they are mostly very well filled with line and, for that reason I would have thought that the muscles of hand , wrist and fingers must surely be at almost full stretch.....and ,thus, totally inflexible.

OK, there are those, "thumbies"of one sort or another, but they almost always add even more distance to be encompassed by the hand  (I think they're useless when wet)

So, how do you do it?....for it cannot be, that all ZA fishermen, have been gifted with hands the size of Sundays meat roast.

 

Compass Two

 

[eviltoy]

haha its actually not that hard. You just grip hard initially and when the rod starts coming over you release slightly till the catapult effect starts stripping line then you lightly finger the spool as to prevent a over wind

 

[Pylstert]

we always fish with the reel at the bottom of the rod, i am sure that helps with a better ggrip, still cant figure out why most of the rest of the world puts the reel a meter up and then has to reel in with the rod under your arm especially with a big fish on, when it is so easy to use a rod bucket. Also a lot of za rods come with 22mm trigger winch which allows you to get a better grip. And then its just practice you don't need big hands even to cast a trini 40.

 

[Trophy]

Hiya Compass Two,

It was touched on in the thread above. The difference is the design of the rod.

I spent a few years fishing in the UK and took along my SA style rods...much to amusement of the local UK chaps!

With the reel seated near the base of the SA rods the casting it totally different to the setup of mid seated reels with long butt sections as used in the UK.

If you think about it we use the bottom pulling hand to control the reel and the top pushing hand to control the rod only...where you folks use the bottom hand only to complete the pull action of the cast and the top hand to power, control and manage the reel?

Like that the SA style and setup allows us to manage power casts with larger reels and terminal tackle and bait easier than the mid seated reels and rods?

 

[Compass Two]

Trophy wrote:

Hiya Compass Two,

It was touched on in the thread above. The difference is the design of the rod.

I spent a few years fishing in the UK and took along my SA style rods...much to amusement of the local UK chaps!

With the reel seated near the base of the SA rods the casting it totally different to the setup of mid seated reels with long butt sections as used in the UK.

If you think about it we use the bottom pulling hand to control the reel and the top pushing hand to control the rod only...where you folks use the bottom hand only to complete the pull action of the cast and the top hand to power, control and manage the reel?

Like that the SA style and setup allows us to manage power casts with larger reels and terminal tackle and bait easier than the mid seated reels and rods?

Ah...I get the picture a little better.

Amazing, aint it, that just a few of the right words can set off a thought train that leads to clarification.

And, clearly, the whole business of why we find it difficult to use the large reels, is all to do with the upper hand which holds the reel...specifically, it is the articulation of the wrist...so that when the arm is fully extended toward the aiming mark; well, it has no choice but to assume the prone position and, because the remaining fingers are underneath the rod, the thumb will automatically want to lift off, or, at least, weaken its downward pressure...and there we have it, the root cause of spool slip.

Right, "trials with the low reel position", will be the order of the day for tomorrows practise.

Many thanks

Compass Two

 

[Pylstert]

CT, also do yourself a favour and get a rod bucket that you strap around your waist, makes reeling in a pleasure

 

[kopstamp]

what setup will you be casting to "try the new" method?
This will help us give better advice.
Also what technique will you use? Normal "sa" cast style will have to much force on the reel, but a pendulum will affect it much more!

 

[Compass Two]

kopstamp wrote:

what setup will you be casting to "try the new" method?
This will help us give better advice.
Also what technique will you use? Normal "sa" cast style will have to much force on the reel, but a pendulum will affect it much more!

I was awake through to 0200 making mods to a old 13 foot Greys Apollo Mk.1. Here, it is considered to be a heavy-ish beast and I always found it too unforgiving of the slightest mistakes; mistakes for which it has often sat me on my backside. However, the sheer weight of it, is a means of forcing me to take it slow, which is beneficial, and the tip shows bites well enough.

 I have re-inforced the lower 5 inches of the butt, with a 10lb monofil whipping and epoxied to it, a 14 inch "reducer"(chopped off of from a old busted rod), on which the reel will be sited, hard up to the former butt. Initially I am planning to use coaster clips to hold the reel , a Fuji fitting in due course.

I plan to go heavy and fill up an old Abu 9000 with 0.5 Suffix Tritanium and give it a try with sinkers in the 190-210 grm range.   Usually, a 200 grm is the maximum I ever use at top of Spring tides (at marks where there is known to be a "fluid sand" movement at the edge of the gully)...and ,normally, its 175 to 190 for usual fishing, and with a far smaller reel with line down to 0.32mm.  However, its clear that the 200 has just a good bit more ooomph for towing out larger baits.

For practise only, I use a full rotation OTG cast with a drop length of about 11 feet for a 175 sinker at around 90 degrees right of the static rod tip,  which seems to work if I keep the speed down. For Fishing, its an OTG cast, with about 3/4 of my practise rotation, but I keep the drop as near to 11 feet as the mark will allow.

Rock marks are harder and I will try a straight "layback", with no rotation at all, but the sinker on a very short 6 foot drop, and positioned towards me, underneath the rod, mostly just a verrrrry slow arm action and just a slight upper body movement..

Pendulum? I thrashed away, seriously, at that for over 20 years and it brought me nothing but doubts and good deal of grief....But, having done OTG for the many years since, I do go back to pendy, sometimes, when the nature of the mark terrain,  is calling the shots on technique...usually its an OTG by preference.

I usually manage somehow..

Compass Two

 

[Mangi]

Good Luck! Let us know how it went!

I believe the guys are talking about the SA style pendulam. It was posted somewhere on the site before but I think you call it a "Hateras" style (excuse the spelling).

Our Pendulam is a basic back swing of the sinker and then punching it.

Go on to Youtube and do a search for "Henning Casting" or "Doppies Casting" and you'll get a GOOD idea of howthe guys are doing it.

 

[Compass Two]

Mangi wrote:

Good Luck! Let us know how it went!

I believe the guys are talking about the SA style pendulam. It was posted somewhere on the site before but I think you call it a "Hateras" style (excuse the spelling).

Our Pendulam is a basic back swing of the sinker and then punching it.

Go on to Youtube and do a search for "Henning Casting" or "Doppies Casting" and you'll get a GOOD idea of howthe guys are doing it.

Thanks for the heads-up.

All I can say, after watching these, is , that I had better do a re-think for todays session.

Both casters appear, to me,  to be using a whole lot more weight transfer through a longer distance.....and very much less rotation than I am used to.

And that "toss-back" starting point, with its short drop; is enough reason for me to think that , I have to  try that particular technique with a softer rod than I had thought. It seems to me that, the start point is perhaps even more important, here, than it is with the "high-swing" that us Brits use.  And ,probably a lot more vicious if I get it wrong.

I recall reading somewhere, that this "toss-back" is great for pulling power out of a softer rod, and for wringing the distance out of lighter leads...but its hard on the wrist.

OK, for the meantime,the Apollo goes on the back-burner and I shall use a Zippy GS Match, low reel.

 

Compass Two

 

[Pylstert]

Our heavy rods are very stiff, especially the ones the guys use in those casting videos, I think they are both Pentagon Heavy. Look at some of the rods that have recently been shown in the For Sale section, it will give you an idea. if you do that body rotation full pendulum with one of those rods you tend to stretch a sphincter. A bit of a longer drop and less angled simple outswing gives you pretty much the same result as OTG, just more veratile and tames the stiff rods pretty well. A short drop, however, requires better timing and the SOB tends to give a nasty kick if you are not strong enough to transfer the power all the way through.

 

[Simen]

Place a pick or 2 of the modified set-up so we can see what you are going to use, specially the reel mounting in relation to the top and bottom grip of the rod

 

[Compass Two]

Practise session;  as I had  half expected , it did not go well and the whole idea is going to have to be a "work in progress" thing, for now.

After much indecision, I did, in fact,  take the modified Apollo and began using the 200gram weights.  As  it was rod actionalone,  that interested me,  I used the heavily damped 9000, with 3 large brake blocks and 140 grade oil in the bushes.

What I discovered, was that, during the windup, it all felt as savage as a badly timed   pendulum cast whereof the drop was mismatched to the weight of the sinker...just as if the power was going in far too early.

Also, The Weight transfer, as I see it from those videos, it felt, to me, that I was not getting onto my leading foot ,properly...it felt more like a boxing stance, "planted" on both legs..and thats a new one on me,usually I final with just the rear toes touching, and planted wholly on the leading foot.

Each of 8 casts, was typically low,15-20 deg and left 20 degrees, ...something that last happened to me many years ago.

Clearly, in this casting mode, theres a mismatch with my body swing /weight shift and the needs of the compression cycle.

I could not get my head around the drop length, it all felt quite odd, so I just managed a slow outward swing of 7 feet.. and in doing so, I felt as if I had limited myself in rod arc.

My final 2 casts (normal OTG), were to prove to myself that I wasnt just having a bad day. Given that I had just been beaten up by the previous 8, given that I was still finding the lower reel a bit odd... they went surprisingly well, in line and high.

What I need to do now, is to think it all through, properly ;and I would welcome helpful comments, 'cos I intend to continue learning.

 

Compass Two

 

[BigBass]

Probably best to get comfortable with the OTG with low reel position first before learning new tricks! If you are right-handed, the left hand is at the bottom controlling the reel.

Doubt that you will ever go back to the high reel position again ...

Your ABU 9 000 with 0.50mm mainline and 0.70mm shockleader should work just fine with a 200g (8oz) sinker.

Still use my old ABUs (8 000C and 10 000C) ...

 

[Simen]

BigBass wrote:

Probably best to get comfortable with the OTG with low reel position first before learning new tricks! If you are right-handed, the left hand is at the bottom controlling the reel.

Doubt that you will ever go back to the high reel position again ...

Your ABU 9 000 with 0.50mm mainline and 0.70mm shockleader should work just fine with a 200g (8oz) sinker.

Still use my old ABUs (8 000C and 10 000C) ...

Very important thing mentioned here ny BigBass, If you are right handed use the right arm as the pushing arm (top grip) and the left hand to control the reel, and vica versa.

 

[Compass Two]

Simen wrote:

BigBass wrote:

Probably best to get comfortable with the OTG with low reel position first before learning new tricks! If you are right-handed, the left hand is at the bottom controlling the reel.

Doubt that you will ever go back to the high reel position again ...

Your ABU 9 000 with 0.50mm mainline and 0.70mm shockleader should work just fine with a 200g (8oz) sinker.

Still use my old ABUs (8 000C and 10 000C) ...

Very important thing mentioned here ny BigBass, If you are right handed use the right arm as the pushing arm (top grip) and the left hand to control the reel, and vica versa.

Ah... (thinks)...do you mean what I think you mean.  i.e. forget about the massive downward pull with the lower hand?...and to just use the upper arm and upper shoulder to hit it with?

Because the one thing that really puzzled me, (watching Henning and Doppie), was that I was looking for a very high left hand, prior to the hit, and I didnt see either of them do it..and, clearly the lead sinker took off for distant pastures.

Wait a minute, wait a minute..they both had very high and almost straight right hands..soooooooo..

..is that the idea?... to create the wide arc, with that right hand push all alone, and yet , using the left hand as fulcrum?....I certainly wasn't doing that.

So perhaps I was lifting too high, in order to use a big left hand pull, when it was not needed..

Even more food for thought.

One thing for sure, this style of casting looks deceptively easy and straightforward, but I should have known better. There are no easy fix's at all.

rgds

Compass Two

 

[Simen]

Compass Two wrote:

Simen wrote:

BigBass wrote:

Probably best to get comfortable with the OTG with low reel position first before learning new tricks! If you are right-handed, the left hand is at the bottom controlling the reel.

Doubt that you will ever go back to the high reel position again ...

Your ABU 9 000 with 0.50mm mainline and 0.70mm shockleader should work just fine with a 200g (8oz) sinker.

Still use my old ABUs (8 000C and 10 000C) ...

Very important thing mentioned here ny BigBass, If you are right handed use the right arm as the pushing arm (top grip) and the left hand to control the reel, and vica versa.

Ah... (thinks)...do you mean what I think you mean.  i.e. forget about the massive downward pull with the lower hand?...and to just use the upper arm and upper shoulder to hit it with?

Because the one thing that really puzzled me, (watching Henning and Doppie), was that I was looking for a very high left hand, prior to the hit, and I didnt see either of them do it..and, clearly the lead sinker took off for distant pastures.

Wait a minute, wait a minute..they both had very high and almost straight right hands..soooooooo..

..is that the idea?... to create the wide arc, with that right hand push all alone, and yet , using the left hand as fulcrum?....I certainly wasn't doing that.

So perhaps I was lifting too high, in order to use a big left hand pull, when it was not needed..

Even more food for thought.

One thing for sure, this style of casting looks deceptively easy and straightforward, but I should have known better. There are no easy fix's at all.

rgds

Compass Two

Let me try explain. the right arm gets used for the push much like a guy doing shot-put. from the shoulder at an angle of about 45deg. the left hand gets pulled down from about chin height towards the left hip.

Both arms exert power, right push, left pull, with the right being the dominant power.

Please this is just an explanation (sort of ) for the action, once you have this concept then you add hip swing, around the shoulder,etc to increase distance.

 

[Koper]

Hi C2

Any progress with your casting practice?

Let us know!

 

[Tope]

C2 where in yorkshire are you maybe we could meet up and ill show you how i cast my set up which is reel down either sl30 or sl50, or diawa gs9000 f/s with briad all cast down the butt with no problems, i normally chuck 150g 175g or 200g on the multi`s and only 140g-150g on the f/s `n` braid,
ive also come round to the sealine way of sliding baits i have had some sucsess not alot but still needs some practise on the rod shaking part ;-),

Im away fishing in florida form the 1st november for a month so ill not be doing much till after that but if you want to meet let me know.
tope

 

[Compass Two]

Thanks again to everyone for their encouragement. Here's an update.

As it stands, I have had great results in some aspects , but not in others.

My attempts to do the whole thing together, including a ZA style pendulum, were a disaster; it had mainly to do with the pendulum and that huge , arm-wrenching load up of a mistimed swing( with spool slip)...it was either just too overpowering when mistimed one way,   or a useless bash into fresh air, when mistimed the other way.

I dumped the idea of this style of pendulum, and went back to the UK style pendulum, the hi-swing....although I had not worked with the style for many years, it all came back within a half dozen casts...the best of which, went 175 ish  yards according to Google Earth.      And then, I started thinking about it and of course, it then went all to hell and gone.   What to do....

Presently, I have gone back to my well tried OTG and , with low reel ,(a Daiwa 7HT and .35 line),and 190 grams I usually better 210 yards on good days , i.e. those when I can just allow it all to happen by itself.

With the 9000 on 190g , running 0.5 line, the best I managed, was a 181 yards, wind assisted... and I tell you, that it frightened the life out of me.

But, this low reel business, is the best thing since sliced bread, it took me all of 4 casts to get used to it as if I had done it this way, for years...the only hiccup, is that I sometimes forget to put the leader knot on the t'other side of the spool.

Conclusions.. .. .. the low reel position makes "barge pole" rods feel softer and easier to manage;  and makes it easier to take hold of larger reels;  also seems to create more time in which the cast cast happens, probably its the seeming slow-down.

I have gone and permanently converted 3 more of my rods, to the low-reel position...and, awhiles, it seems to me that they look odd, with that great space 'tween reel and first ring, it dosn't seem to effect performance...except that the leader knot nicks at my wrist ( with 9000).

I think , now, I have probably got what I wanted... and that, was to be able to get a large-ish bait out to 120+ yards, on 30lbs line.........There's this one rocky ground spot , you see, that I always wanted to get into .  Wishfull for many years,  so many, that it quite likely that whatever lived there in its hey-day, has now transmogrified into some other specie......who knows?

Thanks and rgds all

Compass two