Hi guys, I have been wondering what is the reason for using R15 leads on safety rigs if they are meant to come off and be left in the water never to be fished with again? Surely a simple P4 with the necessary powder coating would do the same job, saving you a lot of money. Or does the shape of the lead really make such a big difference? What are the functions of the various shaped leads used on safety clip rigs?
Leads and safety rigs
- Thread starter Duanejc
- Start date
Duanejc, the lead does play an important roll, firstly, the fish is hooking itself against the weight of the lead.
Then you have different leads for different lake bottoms, eg, silt, weed, gravel etc.
The shapes are designed specifically for a number of reasons, some are: to stop rolling, weight distribution on the hooklink, and then long distance casting leads, which are shaped to aerodynamically fly throuh the air with leaste resistance.
The conventional P type lead, can be used, but the hook up wouldnt be as effective due to it's weight, then, its shape could allow it to move or roll in the wrong application/lake bottom condition.
With comp style angling, I think they use them, or something simillar,but then the line only lies in the water for an average of 5mins and the fish caught there are much smaller than specimen target fish.
The camo coating isnt a necessaty, but it helps to mimic the lake bottom. I have underwater dvd's where they test the effectiveness of coated/uncoated leads and quite honestly there isnt a diff when it comes to hook ups. The fish dont say oops lead lets not go there, or hey nice camo lets go closer. But in general, all leads, coated or uncoated make fish skittish. (kinda a win no win situation)
Ive heard of guys taking new leads and dropping them in vinegar/lemon juice to tarnish them, so they noe shiny.
I cast my own leads and I have two camo powders a greenish one and a brownish one, if I know where im angling, i coat them accordingly, even mix the two colours sometimes. (Its easy to apply and ...hehehe! they look good. giving ME the confidence)
As a matter of fact, the inline leads we buy in tackle shops arent that safe.... a true inline lead, has a slit on the one side thinner than the plastic insert,the insert clips on the swivel. so, if it does snag, it slips off the insert and off the leader. This will only happen however if the fish is pulling your line, as the lead moves up the line.
So Duanejc, its technical lol....
Then you have different leads for different lake bottoms, eg, silt, weed, gravel etc.
The shapes are designed specifically for a number of reasons, some are: to stop rolling, weight distribution on the hooklink, and then long distance casting leads, which are shaped to aerodynamically fly throuh the air with leaste resistance.
The conventional P type lead, can be used, but the hook up wouldnt be as effective due to it's weight, then, its shape could allow it to move or roll in the wrong application/lake bottom condition.
With comp style angling, I think they use them, or something simillar,but then the line only lies in the water for an average of 5mins and the fish caught there are much smaller than specimen target fish.
The camo coating isnt a necessaty, but it helps to mimic the lake bottom. I have underwater dvd's where they test the effectiveness of coated/uncoated leads and quite honestly there isnt a diff when it comes to hook ups. The fish dont say oops lead lets not go there, or hey nice camo lets go closer. But in general, all leads, coated or uncoated make fish skittish. (kinda a win no win situation)
Ive heard of guys taking new leads and dropping them in vinegar/lemon juice to tarnish them, so they noe shiny.
I cast my own leads and I have two camo powders a greenish one and a brownish one, if I know where im angling, i coat them accordingly, even mix the two colours sometimes. (Its easy to apply and ...hehehe! they look good. giving ME the confidence)
As a matter of fact, the inline leads we buy in tackle shops arent that safe.... a true inline lead, has a slit on the one side thinner than the plastic insert,the insert clips on the swivel. so, if it does snag, it slips off the insert and off the leader. This will only happen however if the fish is pulling your line, as the lead moves up the line.
So Duanejc, its technical lol....
Spod you're a legend, always quick on the response with great info! Very logical answers yet something that needed to be explained.
I'm sure that when fishing a flat surface be it silt or harder (gravel) that a P4 will do the job 9 out of 10 times as it is heavy enough to set the hook the moment the carp jerks its head when it realizes there is something foreign in its mouth.
However I can see now that when you are fishing a ledge or some form of drop off a flatter rectangular lead will be essential as the round Pear-shaped lead will roll around too easily if bumped and so spooking the fish by moving the hook bait around.
some much deserved Mana there for you bud...::respekt:
I'm sure that when fishing a flat surface be it silt or harder (gravel) that a P4 will do the job 9 out of 10 times as it is heavy enough to set the hook the moment the carp jerks its head when it realizes there is something foreign in its mouth.
However I can see now that when you are fishing a ledge or some form of drop off a flatter rectangular lead will be essential as the round Pear-shaped lead will roll around too easily if bumped and so spooking the fish by moving the hook bait around.
some much deserved Mana there for you bud...::respekt:
Duanejc, lol! legend? hehehe!
I suppose if you really want to, you could use them, I wouldnt though, as I use min 6oz leads.
But, if you want to stop them rolling, try flattening them with a hammer...(little trick).
Also, use a curtain wire eye and screw it into the lead on the big side when fishing Safety clip rigs, this way you will have the weight distribution heavier on the hooklink (looks weird,) but at least the lead shouldnt lift slightly giving a bit of slack first as the fish latches against it, with the heavy side conected to the hooklink, its direct tension.
If you put the eye in the thin end, the hooklink has a tendency to lift the light end first, pivoting on the heavy end and then lifting the heavy end, this little delay could cost you a fish! (Just my technical/engineering thoughts here.)
Remember the fish could be taking your hookbait from any direction too.(something to think about aswell)say the fish took your hookbait and swam over the lead, then the lead first swings around piviting on the heavy end. I know Im talking about small movements and time here, but thats all it takes to eject the hook.
I have in the past bought conventional leads, pear shaped, which had the steel eyelets, then, flattened and coated them.
They worked well, but its difficult finding them over 4oz.
I wouldnt suggest using Ptype's in line though, just putting them on your leader wont work, they just going to be like rather large flying backleads. lol!
They need a lot of work, firstly a plastic insert which and must snap on the swivel is needed, then you need to machine the lead to suit the insert. It can be done, but the insert itself is a pain to make unless you have access to a lathe.(or have a stock o inserts laying around?)
But hey Im getting ahead of myself here....hehehe!
I suppose if you really want to, you could use them, I wouldnt though, as I use min 6oz leads.
But, if you want to stop them rolling, try flattening them with a hammer...(little trick).
Also, use a curtain wire eye and screw it into the lead on the big side when fishing Safety clip rigs, this way you will have the weight distribution heavier on the hooklink (looks weird,) but at least the lead shouldnt lift slightly giving a bit of slack first as the fish latches against it, with the heavy side conected to the hooklink, its direct tension.
If you put the eye in the thin end, the hooklink has a tendency to lift the light end first, pivoting on the heavy end and then lifting the heavy end, this little delay could cost you a fish! (Just my technical/engineering thoughts here.)
Remember the fish could be taking your hookbait from any direction too.(something to think about aswell)say the fish took your hookbait and swam over the lead, then the lead first swings around piviting on the heavy end. I know Im talking about small movements and time here, but thats all it takes to eject the hook.
I have in the past bought conventional leads, pear shaped, which had the steel eyelets, then, flattened and coated them.
They worked well, but its difficult finding them over 4oz.
I wouldnt suggest using Ptype's in line though, just putting them on your leader wont work, they just going to be like rather large flying backleads. lol!
They need a lot of work, firstly a plastic insert which and must snap on the swivel is needed, then you need to machine the lead to suit the insert. It can be done, but the insert itself is a pain to make unless you have access to a lathe.(or have a stock o inserts laying around?)
But hey Im getting ahead of myself here....hehehe!
Spod, 6oz leads? lol... I thought i was mad,hahah...
or are those big leads to hook the barbel properly, heheh!
It's simple, if you're fishing castig range, 3oz leads will do just as good a job (that is just from my own experiences, i'm not a fundi.)
But if you are fishing long range to extreme range, e.g. 200-450m for example, you need at least 4-6oz weight to hold your rig in place, while you take your rod back to the bank. this is especially important when using braid as mainline...If the weight is too light, chances are quite good that you will be dragging your rig/weight a few metres from where you dropped it, while you are motoring back to shore...NEVER allow your rig to be dragged on the bottom. I've lost fish a few times because my hook picked up a piece of debris on the bottom when it got dragged a little. but so one learns, lol!
About the original question:
You dont need fancy expensive coated/camo'd leads. its more a money-making thing. These guys buy the leads for R3 each, they coat it and then sell it for R10-15 each??? WTF!!!!
I also used to be pro-coated weights, cos I was worried a shiny weight will scare the carp off.. But I've proven this wrong many times, including this past weekend.
Just buy uncoated weights and fish them as is...or what I like to do is tie about 10 leads/weights together, then drop it into the margin, cover it with abit of mud/sand, and leave it overnight... 99% of the time this will take the shine off the weight and make it dull... nature's coating, lol!
You can use P4/s or P5's, but one thing to keep in mind, as Spod touched on... the shape of the weight. Long shaped weights are easier to move and drag, than rounder shorter weights. So i wouldnt use anything lighter than a P5 if i had to use those shaped weights...but personally I just buy the dumpy pear weights, 90-140g sizes... cheap, and works well with safety-clip setups.
hope that helps...
or are those big leads to hook the barbel properly, heheh!
It's simple, if you're fishing castig range, 3oz leads will do just as good a job (that is just from my own experiences, i'm not a fundi.)
But if you are fishing long range to extreme range, e.g. 200-450m for example, you need at least 4-6oz weight to hold your rig in place, while you take your rod back to the bank. this is especially important when using braid as mainline...If the weight is too light, chances are quite good that you will be dragging your rig/weight a few metres from where you dropped it, while you are motoring back to shore...NEVER allow your rig to be dragged on the bottom. I've lost fish a few times because my hook picked up a piece of debris on the bottom when it got dragged a little. but so one learns, lol!
About the original question:
You dont need fancy expensive coated/camo'd leads. its more a money-making thing. These guys buy the leads for R3 each, they coat it and then sell it for R10-15 each??? WTF!!!!
I also used to be pro-coated weights, cos I was worried a shiny weight will scare the carp off.. But I've proven this wrong many times, including this past weekend.
Just buy uncoated weights and fish them as is...or what I like to do is tie about 10 leads/weights together, then drop it into the margin, cover it with abit of mud/sand, and leave it overnight... 99% of the time this will take the shine off the weight and make it dull... nature's coating, lol!
You can use P4/s or P5's, but one thing to keep in mind, as Spod touched on... the shape of the weight. Long shaped weights are easier to move and drag, than rounder shorter weights. So i wouldnt use anything lighter than a P5 if i had to use those shaped weights...but personally I just buy the dumpy pear weights, 90-140g sizes... cheap, and works well with safety-clip setups.
hope that helps...
pappi choulo
Senior Member
MC you're spot on there! duane if you're really concerned about the shine on the weight scaring fish off, you can also rub the weight with a bit of toothpaste, that takes the shine off....or if you really wanted to camo your leads, cover them in contact adhesive (the kind that sticks to anything it touches) and cover them with fine sand or whatever you fancy.
personally i'd never spend R15 on a lead, just out of principle, you're being ripped off!! you can do a DIY job at home for less than a quarter of the price!
pc
personally i'd never spend R15 on a lead, just out of principle, you're being ripped off!! you can do a DIY job at home for less than a quarter of the price!
pc
I made mention of price as a reference, as I saw them being sold @ R45 for 4... That is just outrageous and I was wondering if there was a Specimen Carp specific reason for purchasing these leads. I have, to be honest, never given a thought to the shine of the leads as I know that after the first days fishing the shine is gone. What I was most interested to find out was if the shape of the lead played any significant role. And thanks to our catfish, oh sorry, I mean carp mentor that question has been really well answered.
MC as always with some solid thoughts and opinions, thanks a lot for your meaningful contributions!
I also thought that the coating was to prevent the lead from poisoning the water by sealing the lead as they are meant to be ejected and left behind in the water. This is purely my own mind at work with no academia to substantiate my theory. But I imagined that with so many weights being left behind that this could be a potential risk to the carp, lead poisoning that is. Any thoughts...???
MC as always with some solid thoughts and opinions, thanks a lot for your meaningful contributions!
I also thought that the coating was to prevent the lead from poisoning the water by sealing the lead as they are meant to be ejected and left behind in the water. This is purely my own mind at work with no academia to substantiate my theory. But I imagined that with so many weights being left behind that this could be a potential risk to the carp, lead poisoning that is. Any thoughts...???
Duane, it is because ppl want to copy the UK carp anglers. (Without thinking wether it is actually necessary over here in SA)
The carping over there is ALOT further down the road than us. Many of their dams are very small, fully stocked and gets fished justabout every day. Those fish are therefore alot more aware of the dangers of carp rigs, and they suss them out. Carp learn by association and after being caught repeatedly, like they do over there, they start to associate certain visual things, e.g. leads, hooklinks etc. with danger... hence their use of coated/camouflaged leads, and the latest one being transparent leads!
We are far from that stage, so we dont really need such things...
lead poisoning is a possibility. its been debated overseas, and as far as I've heard there is talk of non-lead weights to be introduced... already we are seeing some companies making/selling non-lead leadcore...for example Sufix Heavy Core i think has an aluminium wire inside instead of lead....
The carping over there is ALOT further down the road than us. Many of their dams are very small, fully stocked and gets fished justabout every day. Those fish are therefore alot more aware of the dangers of carp rigs, and they suss them out. Carp learn by association and after being caught repeatedly, like they do over there, they start to associate certain visual things, e.g. leads, hooklinks etc. with danger... hence their use of coated/camouflaged leads, and the latest one being transparent leads!
We are far from that stage, so we dont really need such things...
lead poisoning is a possibility. its been debated overseas, and as far as I've heard there is talk of non-lead weights to be introduced... already we are seeing some companies making/selling non-lead leadcore...for example Sufix Heavy Core i think has an aluminium wire inside instead of lead....
Ahhh geez! guys..lol! if its not iburst messing me around, then its cats... thanks for the recognition. But I hear MC had a nice cat over the weekend... see they like you too...hehehehe!
Yes MC, I use that Sufix heavy core... Its actually Super Heavy Non-Lead Core, fast sinking, and easy to splice.
I think its some sort of alloy, with a heavy metal content, its very malleable and strong, lasts good too.
I use the 20,5kg/45lb one.
I think our waters are better off for now as they a lot larger and not as pressured, like UK waters but yes I would like to see some sort of substitute for the lead weights we currently using.
Yes MC, I use that Sufix heavy core... Its actually Super Heavy Non-Lead Core, fast sinking, and easy to splice.
I think its some sort of alloy, with a heavy metal content, its very malleable and strong, lasts good too.
I use the 20,5kg/45lb one.
I think our waters are better off for now as they a lot larger and not as pressured, like UK waters but yes I would like to see some sort of substitute for the lead weights we currently using.
Daunejc,
I'm not saying you MUST buy those leads, lol!
I wont, R45 for 4 is crazy, I still have a couple I bought for that sort of price a year ago and I'm a bit reluctant using them hehehe! they like trophies in my bag.. ultra emergency stuff....(for tackle tart show off) hehehehe!
Besides, my leads I make look identical, and at a fraction of the cost, just a bit of work. (making 50-100 leads is quite a job, time wise)I collect old wheel weights from a tyre shop and when I have enough, I melt them down and mould my own... the guy literally gives them to me... so, now I feel much better when leads drop.
Kusaf,
I hear what you saying, but it doesnt take long for them to dull out. Like MC says leave them in the margin over night.
When are you going to LL for that session? as I am planning one in March aswell.
MC,
Hey man.. I only drop with the boat, thats the reason for the heavy duty... I'm so worried the rig moves when coming back with the boat. Also, I nip the safety clip before fitting the tail stop rubber, so they will definitely drop everytime the fish latches, this way it surfaces quicker.
PC...
What you doing brushing the carp's teeth? lol!
Ive also tried dipping the lead into resin and then sprinkling fine sand on it and then when dry, dipping it again, giving it a nice smooth finish, but it takes too long. The powder works best, instant results, at about R45 for a tub, it coats loads of leads. Easy, heat the lead dip in powder tub, heat again and done.
Ive seen some transparent weights in mags where they claim they are invisable... caption said smething like,
What would you be more scared of something you can see or something thats not there...lol! Any thoughts on these?
Also, what about pebbles? "La-natural" smallish, in relation to the lead weight we currently using.(3-4oz) Sort of the type you get at nurseries, R45 could get you about 200.lol! just got to figure out the clip attachment, drilling them with a mason drill? and glueing them with epoxy.lol! here we go again... Hmm.. thin I must look into this!
Any views here?
I'm not saying you MUST buy those leads, lol!
I wont, R45 for 4 is crazy, I still have a couple I bought for that sort of price a year ago and I'm a bit reluctant using them hehehe! they like trophies in my bag.. ultra emergency stuff....(for tackle tart show off) hehehehe!
Besides, my leads I make look identical, and at a fraction of the cost, just a bit of work. (making 50-100 leads is quite a job, time wise)I collect old wheel weights from a tyre shop and when I have enough, I melt them down and mould my own... the guy literally gives them to me... so, now I feel much better when leads drop.
Kusaf,
I hear what you saying, but it doesnt take long for them to dull out. Like MC says leave them in the margin over night.
When are you going to LL for that session? as I am planning one in March aswell.
MC,
Hey man.. I only drop with the boat, thats the reason for the heavy duty... I'm so worried the rig moves when coming back with the boat. Also, I nip the safety clip before fitting the tail stop rubber, so they will definitely drop everytime the fish latches, this way it surfaces quicker.
PC...
What you doing brushing the carp's teeth? lol!
Ive also tried dipping the lead into resin and then sprinkling fine sand on it and then when dry, dipping it again, giving it a nice smooth finish, but it takes too long. The powder works best, instant results, at about R45 for a tub, it coats loads of leads. Easy, heat the lead dip in powder tub, heat again and done.
Ive seen some transparent weights in mags where they claim they are invisable... caption said smething like,
What would you be more scared of something you can see or something thats not there...lol! Any thoughts on these?
Also, what about pebbles? "La-natural" smallish, in relation to the lead weight we currently using.(3-4oz) Sort of the type you get at nurseries, R45 could get you about 200.lol! just got to figure out the clip attachment, drilling them with a mason drill? and glueing them with epoxy.lol! here we go again... Hmm.. thin I must look into this!
Any views here?
Duanejc, just a thought lol... but I'm gonna see if I can make some up, and look at sizes, maybe too big, as stone isnt as heavy as lead. But, First hurdle, lets see if I can drill them, then we in business.lol!
Thanx forthe interest.. I'd rather drop stones than lead.. just think, We'd be one small step for anglers and one giant leap for carp care ... ahead of the next angler...lol Geez! where've I heard something simillar...
Call them moon stones lol!
Thanx forthe interest.. I'd rather drop stones than lead.. just think, We'd be one small step for anglers and one giant leap for carp care ... ahead of the next angler...lol Geez! where've I heard something simillar...
Call them moon stones lol!
pappi choulo
Senior Member
hey spod, that idea about the pebbles is a good one, but not original i'm afraid! you should check out "stonze" leads...actually i'm pretty sure you've already seen them in a mag or somewhere...i'm just not sure if that's actual pebbles though, somehow i doubt it.
anyway, i've also given a lot of thought to using pebbles as leads. it really kills a lot of birds with one stone (excuse the terrible pun). no shine, no lead poisoning, no money being wasted...let us know if you figure out a way to drill them, i've tried, but they keep chipping or cracking...
btw doesn't everyone brush the carp's teeth? is for that nice colgate smile when you take the pic!
anyway, i've also given a lot of thought to using pebbles as leads. it really kills a lot of birds with one stone (excuse the terrible pun). no shine, no lead poisoning, no money being wasted...let us know if you figure out a way to drill them, i've tried, but they keep chipping or cracking...
btw doesn't everyone brush the carp's teeth? is for that nice colgate smile when you take the pic!
Hehehehee! joker PC... damn! I feel for you in CT, I'd have moved long ago... maybe you should specimen sharks lol... they got teeth you can brush.
As for the carp, bright teeth will spoill the pic man... big flash...
Ive seen that article, but I want to try pebbles.. tried drilling one today... geez! they hard... messed the mason tip up, it went red hot lol, only 2nn into the stone, but... i have another idea to drill them..........
Actually now that I think about it, I know why you not fishing...lol... stop throwing stones at the birds, cast lines out.lol otherwise you going wireless....
As for the carp, bright teeth will spoill the pic man... big flash...
Ive seen that article, but I want to try pebbles.. tried drilling one today... geez! they hard... messed the mason tip up, it went red hot lol, only 2nn into the stone, but... i have another idea to drill them..........
Actually now that I think about it, I know why you not fishing...lol... stop throwing stones at the birds, cast lines out.lol otherwise you going wireless....
pappi choulo
Senior Member
damn! no wonder all my pics of big fish are so bad, it's the colgate!so i see you're having the same problem drilling pebbles, it's a lot harder than you'd think hey? but there must be a way...