Hi guys plenty of discussions about rods for fixed

Enigma

Moderator
Hi guys plenty of discussions about rods for fixed spool fishing in the Surf.

I know a lot about fixed spool rods because i fish with them 3 days a week and sometimes more but with our R&S requirements, especially with our extremes of angling experienced in the R&S environment one cannot make a single rod to suite all.

I have some of my own Ideas. One is that having more flexibility in the tip of the rod alleviates the tendency of HMG wanting to rip your finger tip off.

I personally find it easier to hold the rod for casting with a Grinder as if I was holding it with a multiplier with the top hand not controlling the reel but pushing the rod.

I've got it sorted and even use one of my Blade HMG's with bionic finger to cast like this but of late and with experimenting with the purglas slimline I found massive casts with a rod with a bit more give in the tip to be way easier.

My take / own thinking on this matter (open to comment and criticism) I would really appreciate feedback to better understand what the recreational as well as competitive anglers want out of a "Grinder Rod" as it's new in RSA and we have a huge spectrum to address.

Some things to take note of with fishing and casting baits with Grinders

If you just go look at casting tournament results some things become totally evident.

Tournament casting distances

Fixed spool reels cast further in the 3-5oz class than multipliers

Mulipliers and Grinders pretty much equal one another as a rule on the 6oz class

Multipliers always outcast the fixed spool reels over 6oz and in fact distances begin to differ drastically the bigger the weights being cast, bionic finger or not.

I suppose one would really have to look at what you want to target with the rod, The 4-6oz in my opinion has adequate backbone to handle any 40kg flatty and raggies to 80kg+

The 6-8oz can comfortably cast up to 10oz and can be fished with a Trini 50 if you want to so in terms of, can it stop a fish, hell yeah

Fishing for Hounds, Smoothies, Diamonds, Blue Rays, Eagle rays ie smaller size in-eds then I'd go for the 4-6oz.

This whole fishing facet in terms of fixed spool reels is in it's infancy so I think clarity in what you are going to target is important.

Remember any of these rods matched with 16kg of drag with the rod held at 45 degrees will stop very many fish up to 100kg and with 650m of 50lbs braid will definitely stop a Bronzie but probably not even slow up a 150kg Bronzie

Put some things into perspective - 0.50mm lines used as throwbait lines is under 30lbs so why use 50lbs braid when 30lbs will add 20% distance and is what you would have fished any other day of the week

What would I do if I was a league fisherman here -

13' 2-4oz Scratching with a an Unlegra 5500 and 20lbs Braid

14' 4-6oz Medium with Ultegra 14000 spool with 50lbs and 10000 spool with 30lbs

14' 7-10oz with a Trini 30 size reel with the traditional 0.55 and Braid Backing

Wading and casting for Bronzies, go big or go home. Grinders that can cast are not made for size Bronzies.
 

Simen

Sealiner
Ok, what I would like in my fixed reel set-up.

let me first explain

I like many other anglers grew up inland, and being far from the ocean did a reasonable amount of freshwater fishing.

To be honest I think all anglers at some time in their life experienced the use of a grinder.

With the use of a grinder it was used with a rod with a long butt-end, you yourself know all freshwater rods are built like that.

If right handed -- right hand fingering the line and left on the butt-end.

Now just upgrading from a freshwater outfit to a saltwater out fit means just going heavier. (say targeting fish to 50kg)

I myself, would not want now to learn a different style of casting, keep it the same for me. Still right hand on the line left on the butt.

Reason being --

You might be on a fishing trip and --

Fish with a multiplier for heavy fish (above 50kg) -- one style

Fish with a grinder for fish below 50 kg --2nd style

Cast plugs and poppers (light outfit grinder) 3rd style.

Then back at home fresh water -- 4th style.

Why not keep it simple

Multiplier --1 style

All grinders same style.

So I would require a long butt-end on my rod.

The rod itself.

i would the like the rod to have the same characteristics as my current multiplier set -up

--- want to use the same tackle as used with a multiplier ( weights and terminal tackle

--- get the same distance if not more

--- my area requires a certain style of fishing (eg weight) otherwise you drift all over the place.

So my rod can be exactly the same build only with a longer butt-end.

 

 

 
 

Enigma

Moderator
Having a long butt but long enough for fishing with a bucket makes it almost impossible to cast big weights so then it's butt between the legs or across the chest.

With a long butt section you have the advantage of being able to rest the butt on the ground while having access to the reel.

Why do I prefer to use the short butt style for a Grinder?

I can use my rod for either Multiplier or Grinder so on one rod I can fish both reels for the same size fish and the rod does the job for both.

I can target bigger fish with the grinder in that I can fight it out of a bucket for a prolonged time.

Why I like the long butt, I can fish pension-pipe style fishing and still feel a bite and get to the reel immediately.

With the long butt, shorter fights of less intensity than say for example a bronzie you can hook the long butt either under the arm or fish it across the body but Believe me bruising of the ribs and armpit are not a laughing matter.

In short myself for spinning and eds I like the long butt for convenience and casting style. For large baits i like the overhand grip which allows for long rotation of bigh weights and baits and being able to fight a fish comfortably from the bucket

Thanks for the comments Simen, seems I'm the only one here looking at it that way but seen many of the new upcomming stars of SA R&S fishing the overhand grip and going as hard as a BLADE HMG and Pentagon Heavy for ineds with a Grinder.
 

Andre Laas

Sealiner
Just some things from my experiance....

I have been playing around with a Loomis and Franklin 12' 3-5oz rod that I am converting to a spinning outfit. First I had the reel seat moved to the higher position so that I have an extended but and fitted an Bionic finger. I basically had it positioned at the same distance as for my carp rods (about shoulder breadth apart). This allowed me great casts, but like Craig pointed out, just about impossible to use with a bucket as you can't reach the reel. The but just got a pain i n the but when holding it, when reeling, when playing a fish etc (for me anyway).

Then I reduced the length of the but so that I can still reach the reel when using a bucket. This made fishing the outfit a bit easier, but I definitely lost a lot of power in the cast, and for some reason I even lost accuracy. Now the seat is back in the low position, and it took a bit getting used to, but it definitely works better than the other two options, and with a few more outings, I am sure it will  become as natural as other methods. This set-up really sends a 4oz plug, or a 2-3oz weight plus clipped bait some distance when you need, and I will not change back from the grinder set-up for this style

My ideal rod for my style of fishing and target species would be a 13" (maybe even 14") rod that can cast 3-5 oz, with peak performance at 4oz. I have also found that going over 5oz I prefer my multiplier type reel. I am definitely interested in the new slimline range of blanks, as the loomis blank still feels a tad heavy for this style of fishing, especially when casting plugs. 
 

Koper

Senior Member
I've been playing around on the rugby field on Saturday with two multiplier type rods, an Exage 1224 & a Purglass 300/2.

I had grinders on them both & casted them (was actually trying to learn my laaitjie to cast), and using a 4 oz sinker.  I'm right handed, so when I cast my left hand controls the multiplier, changing over to a grinder I find it the easiest to still use my left hand to control the grinder.

I don't get the distance thought that I get with the multiplier.  I'll stick to the low reel seat, that way I can use the rod in both configs.
 

Simen

Sealiner
I agree with you guys on the reel to far forward when positioned in a bucket, wont the the option now be to go for the retractable butt-end, personally for me it would be an option.

What is your take on this?

 
 

Andre Laas

Sealiner
For bait fishing I think it may work quite nicely, but for casting plugs and spoons I believe it may get a bit finicky, and may soon wear out. I like the idea though. One of the modifications I tested was a removable but-extension that could be "plugged" in for casting, and then removed, hanging from your belt, but that only lasted one outing..
 

BigBass

Sealiner
Enigma, I think you must build my next surf spinning rod on one of those those Purglas Slimline blanks!

For grinder fishing in the Surf I have used a rod built on an old Fenwick SS 1383 11 1/2 '; 2 - 4 oz blank. Shortish butt. I am replacing the original old Fuji SVSG guides. I got the rod 2nd hand - was built many years ago and some of the guide frames rusted and broke ... Will be using the new Fuji K-Frame KWSG forward-facing spinning guides on this rod (30/ 20/ 16/ 12/ the rest 10's and a 10 or 12 tip).

Definitely agree that spinning rods need a bit more flex in the tip!

I thought about the Fuji lowriders and did some research on the Internet as well, but have not as yet totally made up my mind about the lowriders ...

If I ask you to build my next rod on a Purglas Slimline blank, I would like to use the following "hybrid" guide set-up using Fuji Lowrider LCSGs for the first two guides nearest the short butt (20/ 16 - both these lowriders reversed) and then Fuji KWSGs (normal forward facing) for the rest of the guides (16/ 12/ 10/ 10 and a 10 or 12 tip). What do you think about this configuration instead of using "lowriders" straight through to the tip?
 
 

Enigma

Moderator
Spent a lot of the day discussing this at length with many people.

Well the Europeans must have something as they are the trendsetters in this and a long butt section is the best option for a dedicated Grinder rods.

Our problem is that the target species and method of fishing we plan for this tackle is skewed by the extremes of our angling.

This should be a 4-6oz rod used to target eds at long range, as well as competition sized flatfish and ineds like hounds etc, yes it can handle bigger fish if you do pick them up.

Typically this rod would replace in competion angling terms (and eds angling terms) the 0.47mm-0.50mm throwbait rig.

This is typically a 25-30lbs rig so 30lbs braid should be sufficient and will add 20%+ distance to what you would get with 50lbs braid.

My question posed to the anglers in this debate today was, if you have to have 50lbs tackle on the grinder, why don't you have 0.60mm line on your Trini 20.

The beauty of the Grinder that you can have 1 reel with 4 spools so you just change spools according to the conditions and the casting requirements ie 1 x spool 0.40mm Nylon, 1 x spool 20lbs braid, 1 x spool 30lbs braid, 1 x 50 lbs braid
 

Enigma

Moderator
Surfcasting rod vs Spinning Outfit have different requirements so we'll keep this thread on the Surfcasting one.

I'm in negotiation with Purglas and already arranged the services of 5 of WP A side to test and evaluate some rods and one (possibly 2) are fishing Euro Style comp in Italy at world angling games and are very well known top WP Anglers (Tx for arranging Angler 1)

I'll be doing a 2-4oz scratching rod and 2 versions of the 4-6oz as the amount of info forwarded per pm, email and telephone today was scary
 

Enigma

Moderator
BigBass wrote:
Enigma, I think you must build my next surf spinning rod on one of those those Purglas Slimline blanks!

For grinder fishing in the Surf I have used a rod built on an old Fenwick SS 1383 11 1/2 '; 2 - 4 oz blank. Shortish butt. I am replacing the original old Fuji SVSG guides. I got the rod 2nd hand - was built many years ago and some of the guide frames rusted and broke ... Will be using the new Fuji K-Frame KWSG forward-facing spinning guides on this rod (30/ 20/ 16/ 12/ the rest 10's and a 10 or 12 tip).

Definitely agree that spinning rods need a bit more flex in the tip!

I thought about the Fuji lowriders and did some research on the Internet as well, but have not as yet totally made up my mind about the lowriders ...

If I ask you to build my next rod on a Purglas Slimline blank, I would like to use the following "hybrid" guide set-up using Fuji Lowrider LCSGs for the first two guides nearest the short butt (20/ 16 - both these lowriders reversed) and then Fuji KWSGs (normal forward facing) for the rest of the guides (16/ 12/ 10/ 10 and a 10 or 12 tip). What do you think about this configuration instead of using "lowriders" straight through to the tip?
 

Wow someone else has seen the light. LoRider and K series are the answer.

One of the 2 x 4-6oz will have a lo-rid or Lo-rider K series setup on it and it will get the most negative comment but I guarantee it will outcast the larger old school guides by at least 15%

I will have to experiment with it myself, I just don't know how robust the K series will be with the guys looking to fish smaller ineds with the rod.

The Lo-rider is simply more robust and designed to handle 150lbs braid on a plugging and jigging stick as well as maximising casting

With the longer butt one can always kneel and used a foot as a rod stop or the butt across the body to brace the rod like a lever between hand and body

Now to get the balance right.

The perfect casting build is not the perfect pulling build so to get the balance right, good casting rod with a good amount of pulling power, in Europe the emphasis is 100% on casting because getting to the fish is the most important because the size of your catch generally never needs pulling.
 

Simen

Sealiner
Enigma wrote:
Spent a lot of the day discussing this at length with many people.

Well the Europeans must have something as they are the trendsetters in this and a long butt section is the best option for a dedicated Grinder rods.

Our problem is that the target species and method of fishing we plan for this tackle is skewed by the extremes of our angling.

This should be a 4-6oz rod used to target eds at long range, as well as competition sized flatfish and ineds like hounds etc, yes it can handle bigger fish if you do pick them up.

Typically this rod would replace in competion angling terms (and eds angling terms) the 0.47mm-0.50mm throwbait rig.

This is typically a 25-30lbs rig so 30lbs braid should be sufficient and will add 20%+ distance to what you would get with 50lbs braid.

My question posed to the anglers in this debate today was, if you have to have 50lbs tackle on the grinder, why don't you have 0.60mm line on your Trini 20.

The beauty of the Grinder that you can have 1 reel with 4 spools so you just change spools according to the conditions and the casting requirements ie 1 x spool 0.40mm Nylon, 1 x spool 20lbs braid, 1 x spool 30lbs braid, 1 x 50 lbs braid

I would think comparing a TN 20 with a large grinder is maybe not the right comparison.

Rather compare a TH20 with a medium outfit and a TN30/40 for example with a heavy Grinder outfit.

Also today with the advantage of having Braid it makes Grinder fishing a more of a reality than a couple of years ago.

Personally I would not think of spooling any Grinder today with anything else than braid.

Even should I venture into an extreme heavy outfit (that I have to cast), I would then reverse my spooling method on my reel.

With a multiplier -- braid backing -- mono mainline

With a Grinder  --- mono backing -- braid mainline. -- or only braid

I think with the evolving of grinders, line choice,  has now become a crucial factor.

 

 
 

Enigma

Moderator
Hear you. Te point here was that they made it clear that this would fill the tackle segment where they fish a Tn20 with 0.47-0.50mm line.

Then in the same breath they tell me they want to fish 50lbs braid on that class rig.

They want the Grinder for sensitivity, to be able to target eds, small ineds and flatfish, this is what they do with 30lbs Nylon.

So to keep the same strength and increase range massively then my argument is to go 30lbs for Flatfish and 20lbs for eds.

27lbs Jerry Brown is 0.15mm and casts from the beach to where guys wading cast with there 0.40mm 20lbs Mono.

So having spare spools you can by simply changing spools get the braid right for casting or abrasion resistance etc.

I have seen and seen on the world wide stage that even though braid is king on a Grinder there are places and situations where a good High Abrasion nylon is an absolute necessity
 

Simen

Sealiner
Enigma wrote:
Hear you. Te point here was that they made it clear that this would fill the tackle segment where they fish a Tn20 with 0.47-0.50mm line.

Then in the same breath they tell me they want to fish 50lbs braid on that class rig.

They want the Grinder for sensitivity, to be able to target eds, small ineds and flatfish, this is what they do with 30lbs Nylon.

So to keep the same strength and increase range massively then my argument is to go 30lbs for Flatfish and 20lbs for eds.

27lbs Jerry Brown is 0.15mm and casts from the beach to where guys wading cast with there 0.40mm 20lbs Mono.

So having spare spools you can by simply changing spools get the braid right for casting or abrasion resistance etc.

I have seen and seen on the world wide stage that even though braid is king on a Grinder there are places and situations where a good High Abrasion nylon is an absolute necessity

Quote "So to keep the same strength and increase range massively then my argument is to go 30lbs for Flatfish and 20lbs for eds." 

 Quiet correct I can support that argument.

Also have to agree with the fact that you will outcast the guys using mono with braid.

A major advantage of a Grinder are the spare spools, you choose the line for the application and it takes seconds to change and you are in the water.

I agree again, there will be places where mono will be the better option for the condition but it will have to be a give and take situation: eg more abrasiveness = less distance.
 

Surfmate

New member
I have an Ultegra and I filled the 14000 spool with 50lb Powerpro.I "modified" an old Assasin that I have, simply by having larger guides fitted and cable tying a bionic finger on.
With this outfit and a 6 oz weight,I have improved my casting distance over a multiplier by 20m.Having the reel low down is not a problem after practice.I still believe that I am not getting anywhere near the distances I have read about on this site (150m),So the next step would be to go to 30lb line.Any recommendations on kind and where to get?
I am not sure if there are any benefits to be had in expending more cash on a new rod? Dont mind doing this,but would hate to waste the money only to find out afterwards that nothing has been gained.I hear that Basil Manning is using the previous Assassin Blanks to build up Grinder rods???
One of the problems I have with the current outfit is that I snap off a lot of sinkers in the cast,necessitating a heavy sinker trace.This is also a problem with clipping to a light hook trace as you can end up fishing with no hook attached.Perhaps if I go to 30lb braid,I can move to a 5oz sinker and this will help,but I havent tried the Assasin on such a light weight yet and don`t know how it will load.
At this stage its all tial and error for me,and that`s why I enjoy all the posts on this topic
 

Surfmate

New member
I have an Ultegra and I filled the 14000 spool with 50lb Powerpro.I "modified" an old Assasin that I have, simply by having larger guides fitted and cable tying a bionic finger on.
With this outfit and a 6 oz weight,I have improved my casting distance over a multiplier by 20m.Having the reel low down is not a problem after practice.I still believe that I am not getting anywhere near the distances I have read about on this site (150m),So the next step would be to go to 30lb line.Any recommendations on kind and where to get?
I am not sure if there are any benefits to be had in expending more cash on a new rod? Dont mind doing this,but would hate to waste the money only to find out afterwards that nothing has been gained.I hear that Basil Manning is using the previous Assassin Blanks to build up Grinder rods???
One of the problems I have with the current outfit is that I snap off a lot of sinkers in the cast,necessitating a heavy sinker trace.This is also a problem with clipping to a light hook trace as you can end up fishing with no hook attached.Perhaps if I go to 30lb braid,I can move to a 5oz sinker and this will help,but I havent tried the Assasin on such a light weight yet and don`t know how it will load.
At this stage its all tial and error for me,and that`s why I enjoy all the posts on this topic
 

Strepie

Sealiner
I played around with a friend's combo yesterday and were quite amazed with the results. Exage 100M Spinning with Penn Battle loaded with 50lb PowerPro. He uses it on the reefs exclusively. I was casting a 3oz with smallish bait further than a 60z with smallish bait on my multiplier setup.
It was the first time I ever cast with such a combo and I enjoyed it quite a bit. Will look into this a bit more come summer time.
 
Top