controversial topic.

[kerneelsie]

Hi everyone.

I would like to pick everyone's brain concerning this topic.

As most of us will know there is a couple of "new" or strange carp species in our dams. I know that the carp we all love was also imported a long time ago. My question:

When you go to the Vaal or Arabie water systems... should we as anglers remove the grass and silver carp we catch? Just to be clear by removing i mean giving it to the poor... Or should we just accept that they are now part of our water systems and live with it? Some people recon they are a massive threat, or is it safe to assume that they will find their way into the food chain and become part of the biodiversity? I have read an article which states that in Bloemhof dam that grass carp do pose a serious threat, but is this true? I know in America the silver carp is a big problem (thats what my fishing buddies abroad tell me)

I, myself will release all my fish, except when i go to our game farm, in which i will take a couple of fish for the workers (stricly fish 3kg and under). lets say in our non grass carp water systems...should we remove a couple of the smaller fish to prevent overpopulation or will the dam and it's natural predators sort it out for itself?

Thank you

 

[Slimy Salamander]

Carp do pose a thread to some other indigenous species because they compete for food, but overall I think carp is not the biggest problem as they also become food for many other species. Barbel, otters and birds probably benefit from carp. Bloemhof barbel primarily hunt carp and that is why they are so aggressive and grow so large.

In my opinion Bass is the real pest we should keep an eye on, because they are a very successful predictor that destroy local reptile,insect, amhebian, avian and fish species. Sure, they are also eaten by other animals, but I think they should be controlled somehow.

 

[EugeneC]

It's a moot point. Regardless of whether anglers kill the carp, bass and other invaders they catch or not, they are there to stay. It will take a lot larger, co-ordinated effort to remove carp, bass etc. from systems like the Vaal.

Case in point: near Stellenbosch you have the Jonkershoek valley, where there's a little (1 or 2 hectares at most) dam on the Eerste river. This dam used to be exclusively for fly fishers and was stocked with rainbow trout, the university also has a long running trout breeding and research program they conduct on this dam. About 12 years ago suddenly carp and catfish both appeared in the dam, there are various theories about where they came from, but it's irrelevant to this conversation. The point is for about 5 years that dam was one of the best kept secrets in big carp angling in the Cape; I personally landed lots of mid- to high 20lb carp from that little pond.

Then the local workers caught on that there's carp in the dam and started catching them for the pot en masse after work hours in the evenings (the dam is in the middle of a working pine plantation, the workers are loggers). Over the past 5 - 7 years this has been happening on a huge scale and the only result is that nowadays you'll be lucky to land a 5lb carp, but they're still there in HUGE numbers.

Again, this is on a tiny little dam with comparatively huge fishing pressure and not a whole lot of c&r happening. Interestingly the cats disappeared withing the first 5 years as mysteriously as they appeared, I have no idea why, as this was before word got out and guys started fishing for the table.

 

[IWyk]

All these alien/introduced species are here to stay and cannot be removed in totality.
The biggest problem is that they threaten some of our indigenous species especially the ones already under pressure(eg. yellow fish).

The barbel are not affected by this as I think they are having a field day with all this available aliens!

I am an avid Barbel angler and would love it if the authorities allow us to use these aliens as live bait in all provinces. Would be great for me as this will enable us to catch some real nice cats. They really like live baits and the bigger the better.

I have no problems cutting up these suckers for bait and actually think it is good to use them as bait and take some home for folk in need, as this does more good than harm to the whole system.

Just my thoughts on this.

 

[EugeneC]

I'm on the fence about what's best to do with invasive species and I opt to return all fish, no matter if they're invasive or not. As a layman I don't think I have the knowledge to know what's best for a particular body of water and common sense tells me once the balance is upset by the presence of invaders it's not as simple as removing the invaders and the problem disappears.

I think part of the reason why authorities won't allow live baiting with invasive species is because once you open that door it's inevitable that unscrupulous losers will start live baiting with yellows, tilapia etc. and claim ignorance if caught.

I personally believe the question of invasive species is a lot bigger and more complex than most people are willing to admit. It's a subject that a lot of people feel very passionate about and sometimes passion blurs common sense.

On another note altogether, I stand to be corrected, but I think there's a law against returning invasive species once landed? I'm not entirely sure, but if there is then that's one law I've broken plenty times.

 

[kennylau]

I have also heard this many, many moons ago, but I am not sure whether i understood it correctly. Maybe someone can shed some light on this?

 

[willem wikkel spies]

just to add something:

it is impossible to eradicate them all from all our systems!
even if a dam has only carp present, you cannot remove them with rod and reel

you would need to do it in another way.

interesting to know, that carp feed on bass eggs and bass again the carp young

carp would feed on all fish eggs for that matter.

but getting to the point, if you want to remove all the fish you catch "invasive" then do so. actually we are not allowed to return them once caught, but we are not the judges of nature! or are we?

it is written that if you want monster size fish, keep all the small ones below 5kg to allow the bigger ones to grow "meant for carp "

 

[kerneelsie]

Hallo "willem wikkel spies". I was taught and beleive that you have to take out the smaller fish and put back the big ones to imrove size and quality of fish in dams...the less small fish thats eats, the more food there is for the bigger fish to grow and bulk up. Wow Very very interesting if it works the other way around, but why/how ?? Hehe.

Additionally I would like to add. I know anglers will not make a big difference in grass carp population, but every single one does make a difference how ever small it might be, but should you remove them where ever you can thats my main question I would like to ask if it is a bit unclear. Thanks for all the posts thus far

 

[willem wikkel spies]

kerneelsie wrote:

Hallo "willem wikkel spies". I was taught and beleive that you have to take out the smaller fish and put back the big ones to imrove size and quality of fish in dams...the less small fish thats eats, the more food there is for the bigger fish to grow and bulk up. Wow Very very interesting if it works the other way around, but why/how ?? Hehe.

Additionally I would like to add. I know anglers will not make a big difference in grass carp population, but every single one does make a difference how ever small it might be, but should you remove them where ever you can thats my main question I would like to ask if it is a bit unclear. Thanks for all the posts thus far

lekker typo daai gewees!

post edited!
remove small ones up to 5kg.
5kg and over, put them back

 

[kerneelsie]

Hahaha die lewe maak weer sin! Hahaha. Nee maar fantasties. Ek sal hom aanpas of afskaal tot 4kg.. Baie dankie.

 

[EugeneC]

willem wikkel spies wrote:

it is written that if you want monster size fish, keep all the small ones below 5kg to allow the bigger ones to grow "meant for carp "

This is an example of how things are a lot more complicated than it outwardly appears. If you speak to guys with experience in managing specimen carp venues they'll quickly tell you there's a lot more to increasing the average size of fish than removing the smaller ones. On the surface it seems very logical, but it's not that simple. No disrespect to you Mr. Shakespeare, just sharing my limited understanding of the subject.

 

[willem wikkel spies]

EugeneC wrote:

willem wikkel spies wrote:

it is written that if you want monster size fish, keep all the small ones below 5kg to allow the bigger ones to grow "meant for carp "

This is an example of how things are a lot more complicated than it outwardly appears. If you speak to guys with experience in managing specimen carp venues they'll quickly tell you there's a lot more to increasing the average size of fish than removing the smaller ones. On the surface it seems very logical, but it's not that simple. No disrespect to you Mr. Shakespeare, just sharing my limited understanding of the subject.

no worries at all.
this is what I read, as stated "written" so if you have more knowledge please share!
if any one else has more regarding the off topic, please share

 

[DocPhil]

Just to share experience from here in Australia.
As you may or may not know carp is a declared noxious species and in many states it is illegal to place them back alive in the water. And the fishing community has obeyed. So much so that thousands of (mostly small) carp are slaughtered every year. And many in despicable barbaric fashion. I mean I have seen photos of carp lined up on the road so that guys in 4x4's can drive over them.
It has not made one iota of difference to their numbers.
Poisoning swathes of rivers, electrocuting them, netting them, nothing has touched them.
They are still everywhere.

 

[EugeneC]

Same thing in the USA, where they are struggling with various carp species, snakehead and all kinds of nasty stuff. They encourage people to kill invaders, they have government sponsored programs, they have huge carp hunting rallies etc. and they've hardly made a dent in the population. In fact, most people reckon the invaders are increasing constantly.

Willem, as mentioned, I'm not at all knowledgeable about the subject of fisheries management, I'm only repeating what I've been told by a couple of guys who know what they're talking about. From what I understand when you remove the small carp from a system it affects the breeding behaviour of the adult population so that you end up encouraging breeding and a resulting increase in smaller fish. This is a very simplistic explanation and probably not very accurate, but that's the gist of what I understood.