As the fighting continue between clubs and associa

Marthin

Sealiner
again my final answer to ANY ideas regarding regulations... before any money or time is spend on changing, incorporating manipulating compensating bribing etc etc......

INCREASE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO ENFORCE THE LAWS AND PROVIDE THEM WITH RELEVANT TRAINING. STOP EVERYTHING EVERYONE CONCERNED WITH THIS KIND OF THING IS DOING RIGHT NOW, DONT PAY THEM ANOTHER SENT OR SPEND A SENT ON ANOTHER SINGLE MEETING, SPEND ALL THIS MONEY ON ADEQUATE TRAINED PERSONEL, AND YOU WILL SEE THE CHANGE...
 

jb2

Sealiner
[color=#006600]neilg[/color] wrote:
Thank you
so where is Siberia again ?

:hyst:
You'll like Siberia.

It is where the USSR built the health spas to get people out of all their bad habits like critical thinking.

Nothing like working an 18 hour day in sub zero temperatures with only a mouldy piece of bread to eat to keep your mind from wondering.

 

 
 

IvanJc

New member
My final input on this thread.Strandwolf you can submit your findings to kneepad or whoever.Also make sure to tell them the feelings of the guys you spoke to.I have a lot of money and time invested in my boat and fishing.When I bought the boat I was aware of the current regulations and was happy to abide by that.Now your crowd want to change the regs to the biggest lot of bullshit under the sun.Give them my sentiments and tell them there will be a m@erse lot of dead fish floating wasted in the sea as i pick and choose my catch to take home.And what can they do about it?Nothing.The sea is a big place.I still maintain this whole thing smells like redbait(corruption) The worst that can happen is that NeilG and myself can start a siberian deepsea angling association.A pity there's not an up yours emoticon which I can send along to your kneepad
 
[color=#ff6633]miles[/color] wrote:
then why suddenly all this new organizations all chaired by "pakketvissers" fictitous members etc. Take the Helderberg organization, Chaired by Deon van Antwerpen, employed by Safmarine, a engineer, sparetime estate agent and appraiser for Volvo. No members on black and
I know Deon Van Antwerpen. He owned a 28' Cape Craft called "Sailors Joy", powered by an inboard. His father owns and runs a 6 man Commercial boat called "At Last". My crew fished with him many years back!! Deon has subsequently sold his Cape Craft and now has a deck boat, similar to "Atlantic Blessing', called "Albatross". He has invested probably well over R1.5 million in his new vessel.

As you very well know, tuna is NOT available through-out the year. We're lucky to get 6 months of good fishing in. What do you expect the crew or owner to do when the season ends? Deon does other work to earn a living when the season ends. So do i!! When the next tuna season starts, its back to catching fish for us!!

So, after investing over R1.5million in a new boat, Deon's FATHER also owns and runs a commercial line fishing boat for many years, YOUR organization doesn't accept him to be a true 'visser'. So, please provide us with your criteria for DISCRIMINATING against him and others.........

 

 
Deon van Antwerpen aka Sailorsjoy fishing cc aka Blaizepoint trading cc NEVER stopped working for Safmarine. He was granted a linefish right back in 2001, and complaints was lodged. Section 28 was given twice and both times he changed ownership of the right before these notices then 2005 applied under own name as new entrant. Just before new section 28 sold his right and have no more rights in the fishing industry. All he have is a vessel Albatros. The tuna right on the Albatros belong to a paper right holder current under investigation Albatros fishing cc. This is a case proven of a wealthy person with self-interest using and abusing the system to own advantage. As a lot of court cases is pending I will not go further regarding him.

Connie van Antwerpen is a pensioner, who get a nice fat pension. Pension means you finished your working life and retired, so dont go and take a fisherman's place.
 

jb

New member
Strandwolf here's an interesting question for you.

If you are a fisherman and you invest a portion of your income in a retirement annuity then you will be paid out an amount when you reach a specified age. This age is often around 65.

If you receive this sum will you consider the person to have received a pension and therefore no longer entitled to fish?

If you set aside a portion of your earnings from line fishing and invest it in a property will you consider that fisherman a rich land owner who does not deserve to fish.

Strandwolf, your view of things is so oversimplified that it does not make a lot of sense.

There is no law that says that fisherman have to be poor. I know of fishing crew who park cars as "parking attendants" when the weather is bad.  Are you going to tell me that they have another source of income and should be disqualified?
 
[color=#006600]jb[/color] wrote:
Strandwolf here's an interesting question for you.

(If you are a fisherman and you invest a portion of your income in a retirement annuity then you will be paid out an amount when you reach a specified age. This age is often around 65.

If you receive this sum will you consider the person to have received a pension and therefore no longer entitled to fish?)I take this that the person was a fisher his/her whole career in the fishing industry, then yes such a fisher have a proven history and would be accomodated.

If you set aside a portion of your earnings from line fishing and invest it in a property will you consider that fisherman a rich land owner who does not deserve to fish. If your earnings is 100% derived from within the fishing industry, as your history will show there would be no problem.

Strandwolf, your view of things is so oversimplified that it does not make a lot of sense. Its very simple indeed, the rights have to return to the fishers who lost their rights to those who used the flawed fishing policies to get acsess.

There is no law that says that fisherman have to be poor.Agree but due to the linefish policy the crew will always be in a situation depending on the boatowner of his/her income. EG If the boatowner dont go to sea the crew dont earn a income, this dont affect the boatowner as he have a pension etc to sort his bills. Take the vessel Slangkop crew 7, from 2006 till today was at sea 9 times. I know of fishing crew who park cars as "parking attendants" when the weather is bad.  Are you going to tell me that they have another source of income and should be disqualified?Because of the current situation and in agreement with MCM this is allowed only to crews who have no rights. As we will now ask the minister to review the policies each fisher may have his/her own right soon.
 

jb2

Sealiner
[color=#006600]strandwolf[/color] wrote:
[color=#006600]jb[/color] wrote:
Strandwolf here's an interesting question for you.

(If you are a fisherman and you invest a portion of your income in a retirement annuity then you will be paid out an amount when you reach a specified age. This age is often around 65.

If you receive this sum will you consider the person to have received a pension and therefore no longer entitled to fish?)I take this that the person was a fisher his/her whole career in the fishing industry, then yes such a fisher have a proven history and would be accomodated.

If you set aside a portion of your earnings from line fishing and invest it in a property will you consider that fisherman a rich land owner who does not deserve to fish. If your earnings is 100% derived from within the fishing industry, as your history will show there would be no problem.

Strandwolf, your view of things is so oversimplified that it does not make a lot of sense. Its very simple indeed, the rights have to return to the fishers who lost their rights to those who used the flawed fishing policies to get acsess.

There is no law that says that fisherman have to be poor.Agree but due to the linefish policy the crew will always be in a situation depending on the boatowner of his/her income. EG If the boatowner dont go to sea the crew dont earn a income, this dont affect the boatowner as he have a pension etc to sort his bills. Take the vessel Slangkop crew 7, from 2006 till today was at sea 9 times. I know of fishing crew who park cars as "parking attendants" when the weather is bad.  Are you going to tell me that they have another source of income and should be disqualified?Because of the current situation and in agreement with MCM this is allowed only to crews who have no rights. As we will now ask the minister to review the policies each fisher may have his/her own right soon.
Hi Strandwolf.

I hope you can see how rigid your posts seem. There are a lot of grey areas.

Take the example of a fisher who left his job around 20 to 30 years ago and has fished commercially ever since then.

He still gets some money from the old job's pension and in some months he has to rely heavily on the pension. He is a vessel owner and knows no other work.

If we apply your rigid rules his 20 years on the sea will count for nothing.

I meant to ask. This "Nepad proposal", when and where was the meeting held and who precisely tabled the proposal. Please don't say "Big Business" or "Pakket Vissers" again.

Just be "oop en bloot" and tell us the name of the person and association.

Please also state whether it has your support or the support of your association.

Thanks


 
 

jb2

Sealiner
[color=#006600]Pylstert[/color] wrote:
Is it possible to start a separate commercial fishing section?

Jou donnerse Pakket Visser

Wat vang jy nou aan!

Actually I think that it would be a good idea. The thing is that the recreational and commercial uses of linefish are intertwined.

Strandwolf has not mentioned the proposal to form a linefish working group that is to be tabled at SAMLMA. I wonder why not?
 

jace

Senior Member
Hi

You guys are acting like the two factions in the ANC at the moment. It is becomming increasing evident to most of that there two sentiments being endorsed and hidden. If guys REALLY want us to Contribute to this discussion I emplore both jb and standwolf to come clean with WHAT exactly how guys are ABOUT....a lot to say for openess and contribution.

Rdgs

Jace
 

neilg

Sealiner
I still want to know, what is the process for me to become a commercial fisherman ?

I only have recreational experience, worked in Volkswagen for 2 years, moved to JHB and did computers for about 10 years, moved back to PE and have had my own business for 3 years.

In SA, businesses are suffering and closing down one after the other, so we people with the lots of money are forced to look for other sources of income.

I should qualify, I mean I don't have a house anymore, I sold it to start my business ... I also don't have a very expensive boat, I boat a wreck and rebuilt it, it's now better than a new boat. I have 3 friends that also don't have work, they contract to companies whenever something is available.

Our only problem, we all "previously advantaged" and haven't been fishing commercially our whole lives
 

Pylstert

Sealiner
[color=#006600]jb2[/color] wrote:
[color=#006600]Pylstert[/color] wrote:
Is it possible to start a separate commercial fishing section?

Jou donnerse Pakket Visser

Wat vang jy nou aan!

Actually I think that it would be a good idea. The thing is that the recreational and commercial uses of linefish are intertwined.

Strandwolf has not mentioned the proposal to form a linefish working group that is to be tabled at SAMLMA. I wonder why not?

LOL! I don't even know what a donnerse pakket visser is. I fully understand that especially commercial line fishing and recreation is intertwined and it's great to have these discussions. There seems to be a lot of hidden agendas though and all this political crap is getting a bit much. We read it in the paper every day. Cosatu is so far up the ANCs bum I don't know how they can make any informed decisions they are definetely suffering from a lack of oxygen. CAn oom Wolf please tell us what there involvement in fisheries is then perhaps these new proposed regulations can make more sense perhaps. Cause it sure doesn't make any sense to me.

How many aritsanal fisherman are there? Please give us some figures then one can perhaps relate that to what influence they should be having on the legislation, just to get a perspective please, I am certainly not one that says big business should write the laws (as they too often do) just think that it sounds to me that in this case recreationals (from the poor that fish with bamboo rods to the marlin boat owners) have more say in this case.

Cheers

Pylstert 
 

jb2

Sealiner
[color=#006600]jace[/color] wrote:
Hi

You guys are acting like the two factions in the ANC at the moment. It is becomming increasing evident to most of that there two sentiments being endorsed and hidden. If guys REALLY want us to Contribute to this discussion I emplore both jb and standwolf to come clean with WHAT exactly how guys are ABOUT....a lot to say for openess and contribution.

Rdgs

Jace

Hi Jace

I am an attorney by training and work as a fisheries consultant. I have followed the debates surrounding small scale and artisanal fishing.

I am also a recreational angler and spearo. I have

My interest in this debate is largely academic and I do not act at the behest or instruction of any fishing sector.

I just enjoy exploring issues surrounding fisheries management.

One of the developments in the fishing industry is the growing interest in small scale fishers. By way of background I should point out that a group of small scale fishers sued the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism in the Equality Court alleging that they were discriminated against. MCM entered into a settlement that provided for small scale fishers to fish in a relatively unregulated way. It was an interesting poltical development.

I have tried to help out small scale fishers to complete application forms and to make sense of their permit conditions.

As you would have seen from a string of earlier recriminations I have got to know some drift net fishers as well as some of the trek net fishers.

I like to think about the issues that are being debated and particularly to explore common ground.

As a recreational fisher I am concerned about quick fix suggestions such as the one contained in the proposal under discussion.

Very simply. If the snoek and yellowtail resource can allow me to catch up to 10 of each then I want to be able to catch 10. For me the fishing experience starts long before I have caught the fish and long afterwards as well.

Take my approach to snoek fishing. I watch the weather. I  grovel for a site on someone's boat.

My wife accuses me of playing "Snoek -Snoek" the night before the trip. I paint my lures with different colour nail polish and I tie up my traces and I coil and rec oil my hasper.

I get my coarse salt ready and my smoke powder.

The actual fishing is a buzz and the presence of seals makes it very interesting.

The snoek that I catch are each assigned their fate. some to the smoker some to the biltong hook and some to the braai.

The kuite are all collected and salted and smoked to make a dip.

Strandwolf will say that I should be forced to buy my snoek and should not be allowed to catch so many even though the resource can withstand a big recreational catch.

Strandwolf misses the point.

I also grow tomatoes. I make a mixture of bone meal and compost long before the planting season. I prune the vines to maximise the yield and when the tomatoes are ripe I eat them warm from the vine with a little coarse salt.

It is not the tomato or just the snoek that I am enjoying it is the fruition of my endeavours. I have worked with mother nature and I have achieved something.

What I am describing is refered to as part of the amenity value. I don't get my off on just putting fish on a boat. I enjoy the sense of self sufficiency that resonates in all of us.

The proposal that Strandwolf seems to be endorsing is a cop out. The answer is better compliance.

Another good example is the yellowtail. In the cape you only get a few weekends of the year when you can get onto yellowtail. A blanket bag limit by mass would mean that I would only be able to land very few fish. (I usually try to shoot the fish of around 6 to 8 kg so once I have pulled off a shot I must leave the water.

The stock can cope with my having 10 per day at least. So why not let me keep my 10.

With yellowfin the debate becomes more complex. Each fish is around 50 to 80 kgs and we need to report our catches to international bodies to be allowed to keep our country quota assigned to us by bodies that have their origin in the UN. We have to play by other people's rules.

I hope this gives some insight into where I come from.
 
I hope you can see how rigid your posts seem. There are a lot of grey areas.

Take the example of a fisher who left his job around 20 to 30 years ago and has fished commercially ever since then.(If this fishers only income is out of fishing, this fisher may be allocated rights)

He still gets some money from the old job's pension( no rights to this person to be granted) and in some months he has to rely heavily on the pension. He is a vessel owner and knows no other work. (85 to 95 years of age?)

If we apply your rigid rules his 20 years on the sea will count for nothing. (you cant be a fisherman and a doctor as a doctor can be a recreational angler. what dont you understand about the word pension or retirement? you clearly believe all who take pension or retire can go and take jobs, income away from traditional fishers and further the destruction of fishing communities.)

I meant to ask. This "Nepad proposal", when and where was the meeting held and who precisely tabled the proposal.(again dont change my words, i said this came about during discussions at the NEPAD meeting. this flowed out of the discussion about the status of wcrl and the impact from the recreational sector as our data proven that the science estimates are wrong. etc) Please don't say "Big Business" or "Pakket Vissers" again. (WCRLA with Donald)

Just be "oop en bloot" and tell us the name of the person and association. (As i said this came out of discussion via the threat of taking Artisanal to court regarding the wcrl and linefish. Your representative Wally Croome stated he will take artisanal to court on the same basis as WCRLA. The talks was starting to affect the recreational sector acsess and artisanal blocked any proposal. We went to court and WON the case brought by WCRLA and now we await the case from SAMLMA.)

Please also state whether it has your support or the support of your association.(We do not suport that first talks of proposal, but we support that a review is needed of the regulations, acsess to the sea and correct enforcing of the resource. I stated on page 6 what we will suport.)
 

jace

Senior Member
@jb
Many thanks for that..at least we have some insight into your background and understand your views....
rdgs
jace
 

jb2

Sealiner
It is likely that the suggestion of a bag limit by mass would be dismissed out of hand.

I have suggested to Bruce Mann at SAMLMA that bag limits be left intact and that we adopt the Australian practice of requiring recreational fishers to remove the pectoral fins of their catch immediately on capture.

If you plan to keep a fish the first thing that you do is cut off the pectorals.

No person may trade in fish with pectoral fins missing.

This allows for easy enforcement. Even an MCM inspector can see whether a fish has had his "hands" cut off or not.

This allows recreationally caught bag limits to stay as high as is necessary without treading on commercial toes.

This applies particularly to stock such as yellowtail, snoek, dorado and kob.

If you are found not removing  your catch's pectorals then it can be assumed that you were up to no good.  

 

 
 
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