As the fighting continue between clubs and associa
- Thread starter strandwolf
- Start date
Cobus Blouberg
Senior Member
Look a this response by Strandwolf, against the background of 50 plus good reasons mentioned just in this thread, re how crappy a proposal this is - and tell me there is any hope of sense prevailing, with such an attitude of arrogance and superiority, insulting to all trying to comment:
This thread was not to blame one another but to get reasons and facts why sich a proposal will not work. The fact is that nothing came to light to discard this but only to ammend with including a number limit and size limit. I did not interfere in certain posts as i wanted to see how it played out. Lets see if something come up like facts or reason.
DECIDEDLY not wasting a moment more of my time on this, carry on powers-that-be, continue to screw the country and all tax payers in the name of democracy.
This thread was not to blame one another but to get reasons and facts why sich a proposal will not work. The fact is that nothing came to light to discard this but only to ammend with including a number limit and size limit. I did not interfere in certain posts as i wanted to see how it played out. Lets see if something come up like facts or reason.
DECIDEDLY not wasting a moment more of my time on this, carry on powers-that-be, continue to screw the country and all tax payers in the name of democracy.
strandwolf
Banned
[color=#006600]Cobus Blouberg[/color] wrote:
Cobus, then state those 50 plus good reasons and why this 50 plus reasons is fact. This tread went of the topic and into a huge discussion between the boat angler and shore angler and them blaming all sectors for destroying the resources. I do not insult anyone, I have to react to comments as the devils advocate to get the facts behind the comment. (eg. a size limit for red roman must be, as they change gender after size 35cm. Thus allowing all to catch only the males but limit to 2 per angler otherwise we will kill all the males.)
The fact remain that all recreational anglers must be rules by 1 law not splitting them or favour 1 above another due to financial status.
Cobus, then state those 50 plus good reasons and why this 50 plus reasons is fact. This tread went of the topic and into a huge discussion between the boat angler and shore angler and them blaming all sectors for destroying the resources. I do not insult anyone, I have to react to comments as the devils advocate to get the facts behind the comment. (eg. a size limit for red roman must be, as they change gender after size 35cm. Thus allowing all to catch only the males but limit to 2 per angler otherwise we will kill all the males.)
The fact remain that all recreational anglers must be rules by 1 law not splitting them or favour 1 above another due to financial status.
Cobus Blouberg
Senior Member
DECIDEDLY not wasting a moment more of my time on this, carry on powers-that-be, continue to screw the country and all tax payers in the name of democracy.
Not clear enough? - 'no one as blind as the one that does not want to see', 50 reasons plus appear in the thread already but you choose not to notice them.
Again, I have no further interest in being part of this discussion and to then again read one day about 'consultative processes followed' re this, whilst whoever took part in those just wasted their time, of which this process is a perfect example.
But good luck anyway.
Not clear enough? - 'no one as blind as the one that does not want to see', 50 reasons plus appear in the thread already but you choose not to notice them.
Again, I have no further interest in being part of this discussion and to then again read one day about 'consultative processes followed' re this, whilst whoever took part in those just wasted their time, of which this process is a perfect example.
But good luck anyway.
strandwolf
Banned
We are often not actively involved in the process of formulating and participating at a direct level of policy formulating on issues that affect our livelihood, instead co-management has become a mere method of indifferent “consultationâ€. Our concern is that in most conferences and meetings , both nationally and internationally, the overwhelming majority of delegates tend to be Researchers, Academics, N.G.O.’s, government officials, community workers and persons who are non fishers, who all tend to talk on “behalf†of the fisher folk. As a result individual and community needs and aspirations are not addressed and have shown to create many of the problems faced by the small-scale fisheries sub-sector. I believe that the voices, their knowledge and culture of the fisher folk are being suppressed and in some circumstances oppressed, to suit the ideology of these groupings but sometimes also of some of their funders/ backers. The average traditional/artisanal fishers are feeling estranged from the policy-making and decision-making processes as more and more of the academia/non fisher persons have come to dominate it and the fishing communities are under-represented. It is worrying to be informed of the number of people who participant in policy-making meets who fit the non-fishers category, our main concern, is that the decisions taken by these undemocratic/unaccountable persons seem to affect the communities negatively. This has left many bona-fide fishers at the mercy of the “arm -chair fishers†[merchants etc] who’s sole aim is to profit from cheap labour at their disposal and abuse the fishers and the resource.
Strandwolf, what a load of RUBBISH!!
Since this is a public forum, how about hearing the COMPLETE truth for a change?
As you are WELL aware, SAMLMA (South African Marine Linefish Management Association ) is the official interest group dealing with matters pertaining to the marine line fishery and recognised as such by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism.
SAMLMA comprises of:
Scientific institutions[/b][/b]
- Oceanographic Research Institute (ORI)
- Department of Ichthyology and Fisheries Science Rhodes University (DIFS)
- South African Institute for Aquatic Biodiversity (SAIAB)
- University of Cape Town (UCT)
- Port Elizabeth Museum
Conservation/Management organizations[/b][/b]
- Marine and Coastal Management (MCM)
- Ezemvelo KwaZulu-Natal Wildlife
- South African National Parks (SANParks)
- Cape Nature
- WWF-South Africa
Recreational line fishing associations
- South African Deep Sea Angling Association (SADSAA)
- South African Shore Angling Association (SASAA)
- South African Light Tackle Boat Angling Association (SALTBAA)
- South African Free Diving Association (SAFDA)
Commercial line fishing associations
- South African Commercial Line Fishing Association (SACLFA)
- West Coast Commercial Linefish Association
- Gouritsmond Kommersiële Skiboot Verenigin
- Mosselbay Linefish Association
- Struisbaai Lynvisvereniging
- Kalkbaai Lynvis Vereniging
- Helderberg Commercial Linefish Operators Association
- PE Handline Fishing Forum
- Ocean View Community Fishing Forum
- Struisbaai Lynvisvereniging
- KZN Small Marine Business Association
- Gansbaai Linefish Association
- Stilbaai Lynvis Vereniging
- Northern KZN Traditional Line Fishing Association
Ok, so those are just a few of the organizations involved, which looks like at LEAST 5 Scientific Organizations, 5 Conservation Agencies, 4 Recreational Organizations and at LEAST 14 Commercial line fishing Associations. SO, PLEASE explain to me WHICH of the above mentioned institutes are ‘arm-chair’ fishers, as per YOUR quote above?
[/b]
Topics that were discussed during the 2006-2007 year, by SAMLMA:
South African membership of the Indian Ocean Tuna Commission
Limitation of by-catch by trawlers
Fish quality and storage by commercial line fishermen
Englishman commercial bag limit
Aliwal Shoal MPA – exemption from night fishing for geelbek
Opening of Tsitsikama MPA to angling
Angling permits
Sale of fish at national fishing competitions
Recreational Fishing Regulations
Protection of Dusky Cob in the Breede River
Regulations of Squaretail Kob in KZN
Closing of Musselworm as bait
Sale of elf/shad
Sale of farmed fish
Management of MPA’s
Etc, etc,etc
So, with all these associations, all working together to try and find a workable solution for the problems in the fishery, WHY, oh WHY is YOUR organization not involved? You keep on complaining about MCM not listening, but when you have organizations like SAMLMA, which is a DIRECT line to MCM, who participates in the making and suggesting of regulations, WHY isn’t YOUR organization part of them?
[/b]
strandwolf
Banned
[color=#ff6633]miles[/color] wrote:
Strandwolf:
I have withdrawn from discussions where you are involved. I think that your heart is in the right place and I know that you are passionate about whaat you do.
I just think that not everything is so black and white. In fisheries in particular there are shades of grey.
Your postings reflect a world view that is focussed on an "us against them" strategy. I think that the sea is a big place and there is room to accept opposing views and more importantly to seek common ground.
I have spoken in defence of trek netters in the past. At the same time I have acknowledged that there are very few angels walking the Earth these days and that there are problems particularly when it comes to controlling the crews.
Similarly as a recreational fisher I believe that most of us are law abiding and decent and follow the rules. I also realise that there are some among us who spoil it for everyone.
In short I was prepared to entertain and engage with both sides of the debate.
For a stubborn bliksem like me, it is not easy.
I can not accept that all the associations that are listed can be dismissed out of hand.
I have withdrawn from discussions where you are involved. I think that your heart is in the right place and I know that you are passionate about whaat you do.
I just think that not everything is so black and white. In fisheries in particular there are shades of grey.
Your postings reflect a world view that is focussed on an "us against them" strategy. I think that the sea is a big place and there is room to accept opposing views and more importantly to seek common ground.
I have spoken in defence of trek netters in the past. At the same time I have acknowledged that there are very few angels walking the Earth these days and that there are problems particularly when it comes to controlling the crews.
Similarly as a recreational fisher I believe that most of us are law abiding and decent and follow the rules. I also realise that there are some among us who spoil it for everyone.
In short I was prepared to entertain and engage with both sides of the debate.
For a stubborn bliksem like me, it is not easy.
I can not accept that all the associations that are listed can be dismissed out of hand.
So, let me get this straight. You want the whole recreational world to think, that the average, un-educated, fisher, who barely finished school, BUT who can fish very well, will be better able to control the ENTIRE South African fishery? These fishers, have more knowledge than the likes of ORI?:doh:doh
For the record, i have numerous COMMERCIAL friends who are part of the organizations mentioned in my previous post, who you so conviently refer to 'pakket vissers'. And i can VOUCH for the fact that many of them have been fishing commercially in excess of 20 years!! That makes them a COMMERCIAL fisherman. PERIOD. Or, what criteria do you use?
So far, all your idea's have not been well received by neither your COMMERCIAL fishing brethren, NOR the recreational angling sector.
This thread started out by you asking for opinions. You received opinions, but because they were not to your liking, you chose to belittle them. Thats not very constructive........
What i really like about your arguments!! The WRONG DATA which was received from YOUR TRUE 'vissers', because they wanted to pay less fish levies!! So, the commercials provide false catch reports, the scientists who rely on that data then recommend certain limitations, BASED on the FALSE data!! So, WHO do you now blame?? The SAME 'visser' who LIED about their catch reports, are now complaining that the data is wrong!!
Yet, these are the EXACT same 'vissers' you want to run the South African fishery!!
You represent a VERY small minority. Trying to bash all other organizations doesn't reflect YOUR organization in a better light. Work WITH-IN the framework already provided!! As mentioned above, there are numerous organizations TRYING to work together to resolve their issues. WHY not work WITH them instead of AGAINST them?
For the record, i have numerous COMMERCIAL friends who are part of the organizations mentioned in my previous post, who you so conviently refer to 'pakket vissers'. And i can VOUCH for the fact that many of them have been fishing commercially in excess of 20 years!! That makes them a COMMERCIAL fisherman. PERIOD. Or, what criteria do you use?
So far, all your idea's have not been well received by neither your COMMERCIAL fishing brethren, NOR the recreational angling sector.
This thread started out by you asking for opinions. You received opinions, but because they were not to your liking, you chose to belittle them. Thats not very constructive........
As requested, minutes of the SAMLMA meeting held in July 2006, which is available to all on the 'net: http://www.spearfishingsa.co.za/news/SAMLMA_AGM_Minutes_July_2006_1.pdf
What i really like about your arguments!! The WRONG DATA which was received from YOUR TRUE 'vissers', because they wanted to pay less fish levies!! So, the commercials provide false catch reports, the scientists who rely on that data then recommend certain limitations, BASED on the FALSE data!! So, WHO do you now blame?? The SAME 'visser' who LIED about their catch reports, are now complaining that the data is wrong!!
Yet, these are the EXACT same 'vissers' you want to run the South African fishery!!You represent a VERY small minority. Trying to bash all other organizations doesn't reflect YOUR organization in a better light. Work WITH-IN the framework already provided!! As mentioned above, there are numerous organizations TRYING to work together to resolve their issues. WHY not work WITH them instead of AGAINST them?
strandwolf
Banned
Maak 'n pyp laat die vis kan byt!
No really man, this whole thread is an exercise in futility.
Miles, thanx for a bit of sanity.
I guess I was lucky in my fairly limited career on the line and pole boats to fish with motivated and ambitious men who saw the need to progress in their chosen fields.
The man who goes out on a daily basis(when the weather is fine and the babbelas not too bad) to earn his bread and butter, does just that, he eats bread with maybe a touch of butter. Thats of course after he's bought his honey blossom and a couple of pille.
Thats just not good enough today and, as far as I'm concerned, that aspect of the fishery has little or no relevance with regard to policy.
But this will always be a bone of contention and certainly keeps those honey blossom conferences alive and well when its a tad too breezy to go to sea.
Need I also mention the recent study on the economic impact that recreational fishing has on our economy.
When it comes to commercial fishing in the 21st century, its a case of go big or go home.
My personal opinion-take it or leave it......
No really man, this whole thread is an exercise in futility.
Miles, thanx for a bit of sanity.
I guess I was lucky in my fairly limited career on the line and pole boats to fish with motivated and ambitious men who saw the need to progress in their chosen fields.
The man who goes out on a daily basis(when the weather is fine and the babbelas not too bad) to earn his bread and butter, does just that, he eats bread with maybe a touch of butter. Thats of course after he's bought his honey blossom and a couple of pille.
Thats just not good enough today and, as far as I'm concerned, that aspect of the fishery has little or no relevance with regard to policy.
But this will always be a bone of contention and certainly keeps those honey blossom conferences alive and well when its a tad too breezy to go to sea.
Need I also mention the recent study on the economic impact that recreational fishing has on our economy.
When it comes to commercial fishing in the 21st century, its a case of go big or go home.
My personal opinion-take it or leave it......
strandwolf
Banned
Miles i rest my case. I have read your meeting minute you provided and got the answers clearly. Self interest. Times have changed no more those on top rule the roost. We as AFASA will submit the folowing for discussion to NEPAD at the next meeting.
Permit
The current permit system is not viable for different reasons we therefore suggest:
the permit must be made available as a monthly(holiday or tourism), seasonally(wcrl) and or yearly(fishing, bait etc) permit.
Separate permits for the sectors.
Permit to be issued with a log book, this to be completed with science data etc.
Permit can be laminated for protection.
All income derived from these permits must be stated on financial returns of the fishery fund and where the income was allocated to. The income must be allocated preferably to research and compliance of that sector.
Regulations
All recreational fishers be allowed the same set of regulations, not one favoring the vessel angler more than the shore angler. Scientific proven data must be open for scrutiny to all regarding each specie as to why a size, weight and number limit. The age limit of the angler is also a major problem. The public of South Africa have a constitutional right of access to the sea and the resources, thus said, but government may have laws to protect and regulate this. Regardless this fact the law must be equal to all users, and currently is not.(plenty facts)
Regulations have to adept as our coastline differ immensely to suit different needs. Regulations must be a broad discussion topic and inputs from the users accepted by science before passing the act.
Species
certain species must be removed from harvesting, others limit increased or decreased. This to be done through thorough consultation with the users and scientists.
MPA's and 4X4 access
Review of certain MPA's and the driving on certain beaches to be investigated.
Compliance
FCO's must be properly trained in all aspects regarding the species, limitations and especially human relationships. These fco's must identify them self and the public must have the opportunity to complain against those fco's who misuse their authority. The permits must be issued with a list of contact numbers to fco's per area should users want to report aggressors.
Possession/transport
This need to be adapted as all regulations is confusing. Again consultation by users is the reality.
Permit
The current permit system is not viable for different reasons we therefore suggest:
the permit must be made available as a monthly(holiday or tourism), seasonally(wcrl) and or yearly(fishing, bait etc) permit.
Separate permits for the sectors.
Permit to be issued with a log book, this to be completed with science data etc.
Permit can be laminated for protection.
All income derived from these permits must be stated on financial returns of the fishery fund and where the income was allocated to. The income must be allocated preferably to research and compliance of that sector.
Regulations
All recreational fishers be allowed the same set of regulations, not one favoring the vessel angler more than the shore angler. Scientific proven data must be open for scrutiny to all regarding each specie as to why a size, weight and number limit. The age limit of the angler is also a major problem. The public of South Africa have a constitutional right of access to the sea and the resources, thus said, but government may have laws to protect and regulate this. Regardless this fact the law must be equal to all users, and currently is not.(plenty facts)
Regulations have to adept as our coastline differ immensely to suit different needs. Regulations must be a broad discussion topic and inputs from the users accepted by science before passing the act.
Species
certain species must be removed from harvesting, others limit increased or decreased. This to be done through thorough consultation with the users and scientists.
MPA's and 4X4 access
Review of certain MPA's and the driving on certain beaches to be investigated.
Compliance
FCO's must be properly trained in all aspects regarding the species, limitations and especially human relationships. These fco's must identify them self and the public must have the opportunity to complain against those fco's who misuse their authority. The permits must be issued with a list of contact numbers to fco's per area should users want to report aggressors.
Possession/transport
This need to be adapted as all regulations is confusing. Again consultation by users is the reality.
I know Deon Van Antwerpen. He owned a 28' Cape Craft called "Sailors Joy", powered by an inboard. His father owns and runs a 6 man Commercial boat called "At Last". My crew fished with him many years back!! Deon has subsequently sold his Cape Craft and now has a deck boat, similar to "Atlantic Blessing', called "Albatross". He has invested probably well over R1.5 million in his new vessel.
As you very well know, tuna is NOT available through-out the year. We're lucky to get 6 months of good fishing in. What do you expect the crew or owner to do when the season ends? Deon does other work to earn a living when the season ends. So do i!! When the next tuna season starts, its back to catching fish for us!!
So, after investing over R1.5million in a new boat, Deon's FATHER also owns and runs a commercial line fishing boat for many years, YOUR organization doesn't accept him to be a true 'visser'. So, please provide us with your criteria for DISCRIMINATING against him and others.........
Strandwolf, as you may have noticed, those were the minutes of the 2006 SAMLMA meeting. MOST of your PROPOSED points have already been raised, TWO years ago!! The latest SAMLMA minutes is not yet on the 'net, or at least i couldn't find find it!! I know that i missed last years meeting, as we were out fishing that day.
[color=#006600]neilg[/color] wrote:
Hi Neilg
Since it might take Strandwolf a while to reply I thought I would pitch in on behalf of the Cosatu Fishing desk.
You running dog capitalist. You were never on the sea. jou hande is so sag soos n baba se backside. Ek is al die jare oppie see daar is meer sout water as bloed in my are.
You are in urgent need of political re education and you are asked to report to our luxury facility in Siberia.
Jou pakket visser se @#$.
Your mother took a package and went fishing!
Strandwolf: don't get too upset with me. It is better to laugh in the fishing game than to cry!
Hi Neilg
Since it might take Strandwolf a while to reply I thought I would pitch in on behalf of the Cosatu Fishing desk.
You running dog capitalist. You were never on the sea. jou hande is so sag soos n baba se backside. Ek is al die jare oppie see daar is meer sout water as bloed in my are.
You are in urgent need of political re education and you are asked to report to our luxury facility in Siberia.
Jou pakket visser se @#$.
Your mother took a package and went fishing!
Strandwolf: don't get too upset with me. It is better to laugh in the fishing game than to cry!
