As the fighting continue between clubs and associa

Cobus Blouberg

Senior Member
In the Knysna area - per example only, there must be many communities with the same characteristics - many local recreational anglers are poor people, to whom the license fees already presents an obstacle. However, they have been coming around and get their permits in increasing numbers.

I know many of these okes, grew up there, any much of the little I know about fishing they taught me. I also know that they still walk great distances to go fishing and take their kids along sometimes (Often at night) to help get their catch home, should they be lucky for a change. And do not now think that they exceed the current limits, they are fined and prosecuted hectically in that area, fact.

I think these new proposed measures could only have a negative effect on that sector, probably causing them to do more illegal stuff.

Then, basic costs of living issues now - already bloody expensive to go on a fishing trip, now one fish a day sometimes and you have to go and play with your thumbs? Surely fewer people will go on fishing trips and thus cause local operators, guesthouses and the like to lose business?

Sure, it is a complex issue and no use just looking at negatives. So, I would suggest some more research should be encouraged and specifically to see if there are no international case studies that would help with assessing the nett result of all the pros and cons.

Personal feeling is quite strong about one thing though - the 'home inspection' story would have to be refined very nicely to cater for SA malaise of crime and security issues. I, for one, am not letting anyone into my home - also considering that I travel a lot and my family is then alone at home - without proper safeguards and arrangements. But the moment you put an early warning or notice of a visit aspect in place, the real skelms will make a plan and the whole exercise will be useless!!!

Last point, a financial assessment should also be done to some detail, as to the effect of having inspectors visiting homes. Surely there would need to be appointed many more staff members, or the current okes would not be able to do their jobs - given that they are already just scratching the surface? And should the money not rather go to policing of real crime, anyway? How about making angling safer, for instance?

Hard to make practical, I know - but what about a points system, which makes reference to the times when you catch nothing or below whatever kg limit is set? Could possibly balance things a bit...

Last 2 cents, would it not be easier to place more emphasis on copping the recreational guys selling fish as well as those buying from them? As opposed to making all of us subject to a 'police state' environment.

All of it is just becoming too much of a hassle.

And Strandwolf, about stopping angling and to go and play tennis - I do play tennis, and F&%k tennis:) There is too much 'take it or leave (It)' in SA already, that is why so many guys are chucking good things or the whole country.
 

jace

Senior Member
Hi Guys
After reading this and a few other threads on the subject a few question
1.0
Just as a matter of interest does anyone have any fiqures on how many Commercials have gone into Liquidation in the last ten years.
2.0
Why is it always necessary to correlate the value of the boats/ equipment and the RIGHTS to fish.  If I set up a Services company with fax/computers etc...Who has rights ??
Can I now Demand or Expect that 30 percent of all the Companies in the Pinetown./Durban area outsource their procurement to me...So the argument that someone spends a lot of money in setting up a fishing outfit does NOT have rights to a certain amount of fish.
3.0
In some of the threads we discuss various proposals about requlations. These are find but there are NO ways to police them. The easiest answer would be like in fuel ,we apply a levy to tackle and bait. Use that to service a non profit organisation drawn up from all fish related organisations in SA. This will be similar to running a Private Security Company funded from the Levy.
Rdgs
Jace
 

Marthin

Sealiner
neil, what i meant with the okes in khaki, since licencing started i've seen 3. one at witsand and twice at blouberg in all the years. I cant comment on their attitude purely due to their total lack of presence. I just think more money should be spent on manpower, and then properly training this manpower, in all fields including etiquette....
 

neilg

Sealiner
[color=#006600]jace[/color] wrote:
1.0  - I don't know
2.0  - This could get ugly
3.0  - You mean to tell me that fishing tackle should be made even more expensive ? Putting extra pressure on tackle shops, cause they now have to deal with levies that have to be paid over to some organisation. Think about that for a second.
As to paying, we are already paying, we pay for fishing licences, we pay PAYE, we pay VAT, and then we not even talking about the taxes on petrol, and import duties and export duties, and so the list goes on...
How much more must we "pay" for ? I'm tired of paying for everything ... I work for my money. Why must I keep on giving ... ? In the end I only get half of what I worked for, how much more must I give ? Ever heard of "bloed uit 'n klip uit tap", well this stone is empty !

Throwing money at a problem is 9 out of 10 times not the solution. Most of the time education is. I'm sure there's some government funded study that will prove me wrong, but then there should also be a few private studies that will prove that I'm correct in saying it.

The solution to this "problem" is very easy, make recreational angling illegal, that's what gets done with alot of other problems ! If you can't manage it simply make it illegal. Hell if you don't agree with it why not just make illegal. That's what seems to be what's happening in SA on a dialy basis.

We know our police have nothing to do, atleast this would keep them busy, I mean we don't have a murder problem, a rape problem, a child abuse problem, a cash in transit problem... or any other problem. Hell, because MCM won't be managing the problem, why not make it a National Security problem and bring in the army aswell ?

There that Problem solved, another 1 000 000 convicted HARD criminals, in our jails that's only filled to 150% capacity anyway, there's space for another 60% if we try hard enough we can fit them in, and ofcourse the tax payers have to feed them, and then if each of them have 3 family members another 3 000 000 hard criminals in the making. Atleast we know they'll be safe in jail, and they won't learn a new trade while being in there for the serious crime they commited, a new trade like fighting for your live, becoming a gang member, being raped or killed, or you have to rape or kill.

I know I came accross as rude in this post, but you know what, I'm tired of giving my money away for it to be wasted !
 

carcharias

Sealiner
[color=#006600]jace[/color] wrote:
Hi Guys
After reading this and a few other threads on the subject a few question
1.0
Just as a matter of interest does anyone have any fiqures on how many Commercials have gone into Liquidation in the last ten years. I cannot answer the question. What difference does it really make? Hundreds of businesses have gone down in the last few months.
2.0
Why is it always necessary to correlate the value of the boats/ equipment and the RIGHTS to fish.  If I set up a Services company with fax/computers etc...Who has rights ?? You do , within that company. Just as you say below.... Who gives the comercials the right to demand to be protected?
Can I now Demand or Expect that 30 percent of all the Companies in the Pinetown./Durban area outsource their procurement to me...So the argument that someone spends a lot of money in setting up a fishing outfit does NOT have rights to a certain amount of fish. Just like you , he should be able to fish commercially if he so decides. The industry needs more small commercial fishermen and less cartels. In business the best survive and the others collapse. In the fishing industry the cartels survive because they are protected. Fishpaste anybody?
3.0
In some of the threads we discuss various proposals about requlations. These are find but there are NO ways to police them. The easiest answer would be like in fuel ,we apply a levy to tackle and bait. Use that to service a non profit organisation drawn up from all fish related organisations in SA. This will be similar to running a Private Security Company funded from the Levy. Thats crazy! We already pay levies on everything in SA. About 50% of our fuel price is due to levies. The fatcats in "govment" already steal enough money, why give them more? We pay vat on every purchase already. Thye recreational fishing industry is a massive cash cow, how mutch milk is enough?
Rdgs
Jace
 

neilg

Sealiner
[color=#006600]Marthin[/color] wrote:
neil, what i meant with the okes in khaki, since licencing started i've seen 3. one at witsand and twice at blouberg in all the years. I cant comment on their attitude purely due to their total lack of presence. I just think more money should be spent on manpower, and then properly training this manpower, in all fields including etiquette....
I actually agree with you Marthin.
 

Dingleberry

Senior Member
Adding a levy to fishing tackle would be really kak. Think of SA under the last government; the infrastructure was built and maintained almost solely with the proceeds from fuel taxation and licensing fees and tollroads were almost non-existant. Now, there are toll roads every 100km and fuel taxtation has increased yet the infrastructure has barely been maintained yet alone expanded upon. These funds never seem to get used for the intended purpose! 
 

jace

Senior Member
Hi Guys
After reading this and a few other threads on the subject a few question
1.0
Just as a matter of interest does anyone have any fiqures on how many Commercials have gone into Liquidation in the last ten years. I cannot answer the question. What difference does it really make? Hundreds of businesses have gone down in the last few months. Thhe point is that in a few threads and from reading some literature on the subject it is always that these Commercials are finding it difficult to meet their expenses therefore need their quotas etc increased. Therefore my point. Yes many manufacturing companies in the Western Cape Areas ( Especially Clothing) have closed but I have not heard of any large Fishing Commercial.
2.0
Why is it always necessary to correlate the value of the boats/ equipment and the RIGHTS to fish.  If I set up a Services company with fax/computers etc...Who has rights ?? You do , within that company. Just as you say below.... Who gives the comercials the right to demand to be protected?Is then not something guys like S/Wolf(cosatu) need to look at ????
Can I now Demand or Expect that 30 percent of all the Companies in the Pinetown./Durban area outsource their procurement to me...So the argument that someone spends a lot of money in setting up a fishing outfit does NOT have rights to a certain amount of fish. Just like you , he should be able to fish commercially if he so decides. The industry needs more small commercial fishermen and less cartels. In business the best survive and the others collapse. In the fishing industry the cartels survive because they are protected. Fishpaste anybody?
3.0
In some of the threads we discuss various proposals about requlations. These are find but there are NO ways to police them. The easiest answer would be like in fuel ,we apply a levy to tackle and bait. Use that to service a non profit organisation drawn up from all fish related organisations in SA. This will be similar to running a Private Security Company funded from the Levy. Thats crazy! We already pay levies on everything in SA. About 50% of our fuel price is due to levies. The fatcats in "govment" already steal enough money, why give them more? We pay vat on every purchase already. Thye recreational fishing industry is a massive cash cow, how mutch milk is enough?
I know this is very tough pill to swallow but it can work. We have nearly a 20 Billion Rand Industry that will collaspe within a few years if left to GOVT. So both the Tackle and the Recreational guys have a huge stake to see it grow and continue. I can tell you from the recent converastions with many of the guys in KZN a aura of despondency is around with the lack of fish. I know of some guys that have sold their tackle etc. They are fed up with the filth,excessive non adherance to the rules etc.

Yes it is very difficult to give uo a small percentage of your tackle money but at the moment where does your licence fee go...down Trevous Pocket for another Impiso/or bosperaad...where the drink bill alone is R300 000....So leaving it Govt...really is NOT going to work....That is reason I postulated a NGO funded by us and RUN by us.

 

Rdgs

Jace
 

carcharias

Sealiner
Thanks for your answeres Jace. I think we should all start paying our taxes into escrow and keep the goverment in cought until they either shape up or give up. Any comments from a law perspective ? Jace?
 

jace

Senior Member
Sorry but any form of Civil Disobenience in case of withholding taxes/rates will be prosecuted.....However there has been some recent Constitutional Awards against the Govt.Even Supreme Court of Appeals....Again we can mobilise into a huge force..there is nothing stopping us taking the Department of Enviromental Affairs to either SC or the CS for Failing to preserve of Natural Resourses.

I am one the guys on this and other forums trying very hard to get some sort of formal thing together. Having Reps from all provinces etc...We have 20 Billion rand industry WITHOUT any CLOUT....I find that hard to swallow..If you look from forum to forum..thread to thread...we all have issues but nowhere and no one to take to....Look at the TAXI industry...they provide less in terms of DIRECT tax to the Govt Coffers Compared to the Angling Industry yet LOOK at there POWER...I am NOT asking to work OUTSIDE the law but within it.
We have the FINANCIAL muscle but NOT the WILLPOWER to organise ourselves to become a STRONG lobygroups.....Please look at some of my previous posts on the same subject but again we go around from issue to issue at the KEYBOARD....Maybe now we have new blood like Neil,Martin,Yourself,Kitefish etc....maybe it can be a start
 

carcharias

Sealiner
Great Jace. There are some guys that I know that are actually not paying thier taxes to the government, but into escrow. Thier argument is that they are still paying (no1) and that the goverment has broken the citizen/ government agreement , whereby citizens agree to pay taxes and government agrees to run the country for the good of all citizens. (no2).
They obviously believe they have a strong case. Its going to be interesting to see if government is going to try to prosecute them.
 

IvanJc

New member
Well I have been reading this post and I think it,s time for my 2c worth.Firstly NeilG is one of the guys really making sense in what he says.When I read between the lines of this proposal, i see it has nothing to do with saving our resources, but lining the pockets of a select few again.Then the practical issue.How many pages long is this liscence going to be for me to fill in my catch.Now I,m on a boat,just caught a lekker snoek, hands full of blood etc, and I,m supposed to take out a pen and fill in this liscence.HaHa.I launched early this morning, rode out a lot of fuel(which I can only just afford) have caught my limit by 8am and am supposed to return!Nope,like one guy said,the sea is going to be full of dead fish floating around.Because it is not about catching your limit,but about enjoying the day on the ocean catching fish.Then I see also that certain people want to browbeat others into sharing their beliefs,and if someone does not agree with them then they get sarcastic and want to tell people to take up golf etc.U know who you are.I say do yr research properly before you try to make a SH!T proposal like this work.If people are so passionate about saving our resources, then my question is are you a volunteer inspector patrolling our coast?thought not.This whole thing stinks of corruption.Also,people are allowed to have free speech.Yet if they disagree certain people want to send them to a Gulag.Get a life.This is 2008 and democracy.Hitler is dead and so is communism
 

jace

Senior Member
@Carc---setting up Escrow--not been challenged yet..but I think if the intention and the interest implication are outlined in papers served to the court then the legality can be Assumed...But again our Constitutional court has been VERY fair and I can see guys that have set up escrow with the proper supporting docs WIN....

Maybe Again with the proper formalisation of the Angling Community we could do the same...it is better to do something and complain all the time without doing much

@ Ivan
I agree 100 percent that too many people view this discussion subjectively than objectively.

Rdgs
Jace
 

carcharias

Sealiner
Im really glad to see that people are getting passionate about this subject.
IvanJc Have you ever tried to volenteer to help with inspecting along the coast? I have, its virtually impossible. Even though I know the fish species better than the inspectors I have come acrosss, Im "not suitably qualified". Hahahaha.
 

carcharias

Sealiner
[color=#006600]jace[/color] wrote:
@Carc---setting up Escrow--not been challenged yet..but I think if the intention and the interest implication are outlined in papers served to the court then the legality can be Assumed...But again our Constitutional court has been VERY fair and I can see guys that have set up escrow with the proper supporting docs WIN....

Maybe Again with the proper formalisation of the Angling Community we could do the same...it is better to do something and complain all the time without doing much

@ Ivan
I agree 100 percent that too many people view this discussion subjectively than objectively.

Rdgs
Jace
 

 Jace Thanks for your reply. Im going to make time to discuss this in depth with you. As of January, I will be in position to spent 2 weeks a month on this subject. Perhaps with your knowledge and my passion and resources we can get something off the keyboard and into operation. please Pm me if you are interested.


 
 

IvanJc

New member
Hi Carcharias,
nope never tried, too busy fishing.Good for you if you have.That is my point.How can you even try to bring in new legislation(which aint going to work) when you cannot implement the old.And throwing money at the problem is not going to help.Just more money to go into some cat's swiss account.And as long as crime mentality in this country is king, you are not going to be able to implement anything that works.Are you going to walk up to guy at say broken road and tell him he is breaking the law.If you love your life you aint.So let's go fishing and do what we love best. Yes, I'm passionate about this subject coz it is about my mistress the sea.I also hate it when people try to enforce their opinions.What they think we are? Robots::S
 

jace

Senior Member
Guys
Remmember ..Ghandi brought the might of the British Empire Down...Napoleaon and Hitler were beaten by Winter...You just need to find the right Channel of the Fight and Choose the correct weapons...
Rdgs
Jace
 
Clearly can be seen in this thread that although the law regonize only one recreational sector, the recreational anglers seem to be devided. Those who invested huge amounts against the ordinary angler. Then those who comment wihout knowing the real facts(wear the shoe)as one said. This thread was not to blame one another but to get reasons and facts why sich a proposal will not work. The fact is that nothing came to light to discard this but only to ammend with including a number limit and size limit. I did not interfere in certain posts as i wanted to see how it played out. Lets see if something come up like facts or reason.
 
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