Hi.I'll like help please.The confusion comes in with the spiesie pilyprion American us also know as wreck fish.it Gos beyond just looking at a picture and think it might be.I went so far as to take samples of the fish and sent it to Stelenboch for genetic finger print.e-mail came back staining its a high probability that its wreck fish,but on the question if I took a sample of a catface grouper what will it come back as ,it was also a high probability.so if any one can help me with a proper genetic finger print of a wreck fish it would help,because South Africa Dont have any sample and Dont have any one capable of reading it.I'll try to add photos.
Polyprion americanus (wreck fish)
- Thread starter STB
- Start date
My problem is that I have caught both spiesies on the same day .I released the wreck fish and afterwards in deeper grounds got this grouper both were juvinile fish of less than 4 kg.so in my mind we have two diffident groupers here,that's why I took samples to be absolute sure.
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In the quest for answer's I came upon a few questions if any one can help with that too.1 how did our government get to the opinion that the wreck fish numbers is so low that to classify it as a prohibited spiesie as the only served that was done that I know of is in 1968 by Dr Smith and iT was of a trawling vessel so over sand and not rocks.if they found wreck fish surely a genetic sample would be available.
tackle whore
Senior Member
what part of the fish did you send off for genetic sampling ?
Maybe you can translate this report.Just bear in mind that it was thought that the blue eye or bluenose fish was also thought not to be found in our water.Its a fact that the Hapuku(polyprion oxygeneios) swims with the bluenose they feed on there eggs .I'll attach a genetic finger print .I am of the opinion that this spiesie of fish is Hapuku.
tackle whore
Senior Member
hi as to your statement below were did you get that info from ?
....Its a fact that the Hapuku(polyprion oxygeneios) swims with the bluenose they feed on there eggs ......
....Its a fact that the Hapuku(polyprion oxygeneios) swims with the bluenose they feed on there eggs ......
tackle whore
Senior Member
bluenose and wreckfish are a bycatch in the trawler nets off the Cape for years also escobar . will see if I can find pics of some of them from the nets , bluenose are wreckfish are caught off the agulhas down at Tristan on handline and jig some very big specimans as well . wreckfish have been seen in the tuna grounds off Cape Town and caught by the commercial linefish boats off the west coast as well a big wreckfish was caught about 6 years ago in falsebay .
I came to that conclusion by fishing in that area for a year constantly.Every fish gets gutted and examend .you find bluenose eggs in the Hapuku.only when the bluenose bread you find the polyprion oxygeneios there,the rest of the year nothing.IAlso speak to other fishermen in new Zealand about what there take on it is.Also look at the chaters that target Bluenoses they always have a few Hapuku on deck with the blue noses.as for netters to catch then it proves that there is good stoch in south Africa.the point that needs to be cleared here is these wreck fish polyprion americanus or oxygeneios because americanus is illegal to catch here in south africa
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I came to that conclusion by fishing in that area for a year constantly.Every fish gets gutted and examend .you find bluenose eggs in the Hapuku.only when the bluenose bread you find the polyprion oxygeneios there,the rest of the year nothing.IAlso speak to other fishermen in new Zealand about what there take on it is.Also look at the chaters that target Bluenoses they always have a few Hapuku on deck with the blue noses.as for netters to catch then it proves that there is good stoch in south Africa.the point that needs to be cleared here is these wreck fish polyprion americanus or oxygeneios because americanus is illegal to catch here in south africa
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tackle whore
Senior Member
If we look at the other fisheries that have in a very short time frame collapsed due to overfishing there should be a total ban on catches of both species polyprion americanus and oxygeneios due to slow growing , ong time to mature , easy to overfish , limited range , small pockets of fish very hard to study etc etc .
We do have a responsibility to manage these resources properly.im very concerned about it,in the last 3 day we have found 2 brindelbass dead in the harbour in Durban.Iv found that the fish is not coming close to Durban any more ,because of the polusion in the two rivers that runs in to the port.But that's for another discussion. The topic is what spiesie of polyprion this one in our waters is.
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Dr halibut hoffman
Moderator
Thanks for your interesting posts STB, I'm watching this..As mentioned on your other posts, so sad about the brindle bass in durban..sometime back there was someone asking about what ate his hook/lure on light gear near the harbour mouth if I can recall, and swam him all over the place like a truck and broke him up..There were comments that it was probably a resident brindle, shame, might have been this fish and in the end our pollution got him after busting off fishermen for all these years..its a shame.
Any autopsies done on the 2 dead fish?
Any autopsies done on the 2 dead fish?
Email I received from Dr Clive Roberts
Hi JAKES,
Thank you for your email and interesting photos attached.
Based on relative body depth and colour, I think your fish is a hapuku Polyprion oxygeneios (family Polyprionidae).
It is hard to get a suit of characters from photos, so my identification is subjective and not 100% definitive. However, I have been working on this group for over 30 years and know both species well as juveniles and adults, and can be reasonably confident that it is not a wreckfish (P. americanus).
Unfortunately, my home computer will not download the photo images posted on your Sealine discussions.
As this fish is an important record for South Africa and the species, I would be most grateful if you can give me its location and depth of capture. I presume that you caught it on rod & line.
Hapuku are found all around the temperate southern hemisphere, including oceanic islands in the south Atlantic and south Indian oceans. So, it has always been a puzzle to me why not in South African waters. I suspect the simple answer is that hapuku do occur off South Africa, but has always been misidentified as wreckfish. To be certain about this we need at least one specimen donated to the collection of either the South African Museum, Cape Town, or to SAIAB – South African Institute for Aquatic University – at Grahamstown (see Ofer Gon cc above).
So, if you catch any more, especially smaller than this large adult, I suggest that you freeze it and contact whichever fish collection is nearest for their instructions on pickup and delivery. Sorry, I know they are very good eating!
Also, I think that your observations on bluenose captured off South Arica are also important. However, I am currently on leave and do not have access to a fish library, so cannot easily check the world distribution of this fish. But happy to do a follow up in December, when I return to work in Wellington.
Best wishes, CLIVE
P.S. The two species of Polyprion are genetically distinct, but it is important to compare the most variable markers – although COI should have pick this up. Possibly there is, again, a problem with original identifications of the fish sampled?
--------------------------------------
Dr Clive Roberts
Curator of Vertebrates (Fishes)
Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa
169 Tory Street, PO Box 467,
Wellington, New Zealand
cliver@tepapa.govt.nz
P: ++64-4-381-7311
F: ++64-4-381-7310
Hi JAKES,
Thank you for your email and interesting photos attached.
Based on relative body depth and colour, I think your fish is a hapuku Polyprion oxygeneios (family Polyprionidae).
It is hard to get a suit of characters from photos, so my identification is subjective and not 100% definitive. However, I have been working on this group for over 30 years and know both species well as juveniles and adults, and can be reasonably confident that it is not a wreckfish (P. americanus).
Unfortunately, my home computer will not download the photo images posted on your Sealine discussions.
As this fish is an important record for South Africa and the species, I would be most grateful if you can give me its location and depth of capture. I presume that you caught it on rod & line.
Hapuku are found all around the temperate southern hemisphere, including oceanic islands in the south Atlantic and south Indian oceans. So, it has always been a puzzle to me why not in South African waters. I suspect the simple answer is that hapuku do occur off South Africa, but has always been misidentified as wreckfish. To be certain about this we need at least one specimen donated to the collection of either the South African Museum, Cape Town, or to SAIAB – South African Institute for Aquatic University – at Grahamstown (see Ofer Gon cc above).
So, if you catch any more, especially smaller than this large adult, I suggest that you freeze it and contact whichever fish collection is nearest for their instructions on pickup and delivery. Sorry, I know they are very good eating!
Also, I think that your observations on bluenose captured off South Arica are also important. However, I am currently on leave and do not have access to a fish library, so cannot easily check the world distribution of this fish. But happy to do a follow up in December, when I return to work in Wellington.
Best wishes, CLIVE
P.S. The two species of Polyprion are genetically distinct, but it is important to compare the most variable markers – although COI should have pick this up. Possibly there is, again, a problem with original identifications of the fish sampled?
--------------------------------------
Dr Clive Roberts
Curator of Vertebrates (Fishes)
Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa
169 Tory Street, PO Box 467,
Wellington, New Zealand
cliver@tepapa.govt.nz
P: ++64-4-381-7311
F: ++64-4-381-7310