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Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
Has anyone out there done some research and / or built a SURF rod using Fuji's KR Concept Guides (NOT New Guide Concept)?

Attachment: 6819E633-AE2E-4C47-B6AE-217B31BF857C-844-0000023479F14A18-1.jpg (Downloaded 2205 times)

Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 10:08 pm by Tackle-holic

OTGman
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Mana: 
New guide concept is a concept with choking mechanism and same running guides.

Cone of flight concept is a concept with no choking mechanism, you will not see the same size used twice.

There is a 3rd 1 called modified NGC or modified COF, 2 choking exists and you've different running guides. Fuji classify this as NGC in their catalogue, but the older rodbuilding forums calls it otherwise.

COF best for mono. The other 2 is more for braid, if use it on mono it melts at the stripper guide or the breaking strain of mainline exceeds and snaps.

On the same reel, same 14ft rod the concept looks something like this.

1. 16-16-20-25-30-40 or 50

2. 12-10-10-10-16-20-30H

3. 8-8-8-10-10-12-16-20-30H where 16 is the choking guide, 8/10/12 behave as running guide but is shrinking the line even further.

COF is the oldest and compatible with both fixed spool and multiplier. Century fishing rods are factory built with this. NGC came about due to the need to reduce tip weight and has sinced evolved. Your setup is a K-series NGC concept.

From Fuji catalogue:

Attachment: NGC.jpg (Downloaded 2191 times)

Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 12:00 am by OTGman

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
in my opinion, all NGC layouts should be modified or tailored to match the blank's performance and intended use. Modified COF is, to me, contradictory, you are creating a blank-specific (Modified) NGC layout. COF is COF - large guide stepped down one at a time to the smallest then the tip.
Cannot see how NGC, if set up for mono, is not suitable, granted a braid-specific layout will probably not be the best option for mono, but if you design the layout for mono in the first place.....
I have been doing some experiments with KR Concept layouts on rods ranging from small 7' / 1oz up to 10'6" / 2-5oz. The results have been very pleasing. I think there is a definite application for shore-game rods.

Enigma
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My Gallery: 
One of the best concepts for Inshore or spinning setups for braid application although light nylons really work well on them.

I have found that using the concept, more of the rod is used but component weight is kept down and this helps with progressively loading the rod in the cast, increases the hook setting ability of the rod as well as the lifting power of the rod.

What I have found using this, especially if planned well for the reel being used is that casting performance of some off the shelf rods we have spruced up we have increased casting range (using exact same reel, line and lure) but up to an beyond 25%

The Microwave guide system uses the exact same concept but with the added Mini (center guide on the Choke guide).....

Have any of you tried using a very small K series H instead of the microwave guide to choke the coils?

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
I have a KL8H in my stash, will tape it to a smallish blank and compare. Might need to move it further up the blank which COULD lose some blank power...

It does work nicely as an intermediate guide between the size 16H and size 7M

Am also going to try a slightly tighter reduction train of 20-10-7 with size 7 KT runners (tried 25-12-8 recently with KT8 runners that does work)

Thinking of the LC20 vs KL20H and have compared the LC20 height of 45.5 to that of the KL20H at 50.3mm....pretty close with the height advantage in the KLH's court.

The Microwave "concept" is nothing new; I have found some quite old images of double guide set ups (size 6 just in from of a size 16 or 20. From my research the Microwave stripper is a 16/6 set up; KLH20 to KLH10 is pretty close but offers much better "security" in passing knots...

Have comfortable passed 25lb braid to 50lb braid knots (Bob Sands/Slim Beauty) through the 25-12-8 set up, cannot see how if I can pass these knots through LC2016-12-10-8 they won't pass through KLH 20-10-7.

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
Also:
Extracting more power from the blank does not only translate into lifting/hooksetting power, it applies to casting power too.
Apply more power to your sinker or lure and it should cast further )or the same distance with less effort)

Enigma
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With heavier setups you won't convince me otherwise in terms of Pure casting performance of the Low Riders and with the width of the foot just adding 2 of them incrementally increases the rods Hook setting, lifting ability and reducing the amount increases casting ranges

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Mana: 
I am a believer in the church of the Low Rider!

Use them myself, even on rods that, according to commonly held views, they are unsuitable for....
9' 0.5-1.5oz rod works beautifully with LC/KT Hybrid set up, tip of blank just not up to carrying ENOUGH LC8's. More KT's out towards the tip increases contact points....

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
Enigma / Others who might be wondering about the benefits:

Recent KR Concept Build was on a 9' Pioneer .25oz -1.5oz rod. (blank very similar to Berkley Air)

As bought, it was fitted with Stainless Steel insert guides much like on the Berkley Air series in a NGC layout.

.25oz was a joke as nothing could be felt; 1.5oz pretty good.
Max distance achieved with Shimano Symetre 4000 and 12lb Berkley Nanofil 75m with 1.5oz

Rebuilt using Fuji KL-H and KT Guides:
KL25H to KL12H to KL8M thereafter 8 KT8's to a MN8 tip for 11 guides and a tip.

All guides fitted with Alconite inserts and SS frames; no exotic Titanium and SIC....

Same reel, same line, same weight, same caster: 75m was done with a one-handed flick, 110m was easy peasy, 120m took some effort and good timing. Suddenly the lighter weights were also going further too - 1oz chisel nose was going about 105m. All distances MEASURED, not guessed or calculated by counting turns of a reel handle.

Rod was eerily quiet on the cast, much more powerful in its ability to pull and felt lighter in the hand.

OTGman
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Mana: 
Tackle-holic wrote: in my opinion, all NGC layouts should be modified or tailored to match the blank's performance and intended use. Modified COF is, to me, contradictory, you are creating a blank-specific (Modified) NGC layout. COF is COF - large guide stepped down one at a time to the smallest then the tip.
Cannot see how NGC, if set up for mono, is not suitable, granted a braid-specific layout will probably not be the best option for mono, but if you design the layout for mono in the first place.....
I have been doing some experiments with KR Concept layouts on rods ranging from small 7' / 1oz up to 10'6" / 2-5oz. The results have been very pleasing. I think there is a definite application for shore-game rods.


2 things will happen when using NGC concepts with mono on fieldcasting

1) the shockleader wear out or melt on the stripper guide

2) the amount of force exerted on the line going into the reduction guides exceeds the breaking strain of the line. The line snaps the moment the shockleader leaves the rod tip

When using mono, choking is bad in terms of casting. All surf rod used for competitive casting will have a stripper guide size 50 for low reel, size 40 for high reel. It casts about the same distance as a multiplier rod with magged reel. If the rod is built in a way that uses the anti-tangle mechanism eg. LC or KW, chances are you have already lose out on casting distance. I try to dig out some photo to show you how these rods look like.

When using braid, the faster you can choke your line, the faster the line will flow in your running guides and eliminates wind knots/ guide wraps. That's why lowrider and other guides with higher frame and small rings are better.

What I mentioned here is casting on a field. Anything will do for fishing when there is no restriction in line diameter or sinker size. But I presume the line will still weaken even if it doesn't melt/ breaks.

OTGman
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Guides used in competitive casting for fixed spool

http://uksf.sea-angler.org/ICSFproducts.html

 

Attachment: fixed.jpg (Downloaded 2113 times)

OTGman
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Mana: 
The 13ft rod has Seymo diamite 20 tip - Fuji T-HVSG 16 - 20 - 25 -30 -40.

T-HVSG is simply a high frame sea guide made out of titanium. Made early 1990s but discontinued around 1998 and brought back into the scene in 2003. I spoke to a few other casters abroad, they told me they only had access to SV guides. I showed a BSVAG 50 in comparison. Both same height, SV50 has bigger ring than HV40. This is my alternative to guides other casters are using, since I couldn't get those larger ones.

Attachment: fixed spool.jpg (Downloaded 2116 times)

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
NGC might not be ideal for field casting, but how many among us (except you..) filed cast as a sport? Even so, don't I remember you being a big fan of low riders? Hardly big guides.... to me at least KR concept is a single foot solution to interline rods.... Thanks for input!:SSS. It is fun playing at engineer

Enigma
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My Gallery: 
Field casting with 0.35mm mono and 150 gr lead with a 13' rod that will never land a fish and lure casting with an 8' rod using 25 gr life and 0.14mm braid cannot or should not be compared in the same sentence.

As a recent test that we did with the 12' Technium showed the LAG setup outperformed this COF concept hands down with standard fishing tackle in terms of distance, cracking off's andante fishability of the rod.

This was on 12' casting rod with 125 gr.

Rod. #1 setup #50, 40, 30, 25, 20, 16 and 16 tip (standard Seagulls)
Rod #2 setup Bkwag with BPLT tip
BKWAG #50, #40, 30, 25, 20 and 20 tip
Rod #3 BLAG #20, 16H, 16J 2x 12 and 16 tip. BLAG setup won on all reel and line setup in terms of distances achieved and tested pulling power on 3kg drag setting

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
OTGMAn,

I think we might be talking at cross purposes here:
you are talking about the guides some use for monster field casting rods (won't get into discussions about best practices as its not my forte) vs setups for much lighter rods for throwing lures in the 0,5-2.5oz range... I am very interested in performance gains for the growing shore game scene.

The (heave) Aussies have been at high speed spinning for game fish from the rocks for about 40 years, we are in my opinion just realising the possibilities....

Modern tackle has opened up opportunities in catching fish that were, in the past not within reach.

Catcjing a 5-7kg Queen Mackerel is great fun if you use tackle that gives it half a chance, but that same tackle must get the lure in front of the fish... its a game of balancing requirements. A high performance 6oz rod will get a big spoon out there, but will fish eating baitfish 80mm long eat a spoon 150mm long? Methinks chances are slim..

OTGman
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Mana: 
If choking the mono increases casting distance, Fuji will have no need for KW50. A brighton cast gives 20m difference based on .28mm to .65mm shockleader, 4.5oz sinker.

I stand by my point: NGC will never give optimal distance for mono. COF is the way to go for mono.

There's no purpose in bringing a rod to fishing when it breaks the moment a groundcast or pendulum cast is done.

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
I think I might have someone on my "side", saw the post coming through as I pressed "post reply"...
apples with apples or at least different goals require different approaches

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Last post regarding monster rods, as I am looking for reaction/input to long casting lighter tackle setups for LBG
Fishermen want rods that allow them to put their lure or bait (that fish will eat) "in the zone" or where the fish are...
How would you classify a KW Setup like this?
KW30 KW25 KW20 KW10 MN12 tip
COF? Probably.
If I added another 4x KW10's or KW8's to the tip would it still be COF?
My definition says its a NGC setup.
Does it cast mono well?
Yip. Very.
Does it cast braid well?
OMG yes.
Is the rod suitable for 30g lures? Not so much. Needs 90g just to wake up...
Great shore based popping rod though...

OTGman
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30 25 20 16 12 10 8 10. COF.

Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 10:32 pm by OTGman

OTGman
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Mana: 
Pass a line from reel centre thru the tip. Put the guides based on line going thru centre of all guides. This way u will always end up with no choking. It will always end up cof if your rod has a taper or flex test that requires u to use 2 same guides or skip 1 guide size under special circumstances.

http://marunouchishop.com/main/shimano_e/e-surfrod_prosurf_pf.html

Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 10:48 pm by OTGman

Enigma
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My Gallery: 
Spot on Alfred. The KR concept on small rods and reels strangely follows the cone of flight and natural reduction of the spiral cone of line flowing from the reel.

I think the majority of fishermen reading this now are getting a bit confused by the apparen Gibberish sprouting forth.

Basics.

The line from a fixed spool comes off the spool in a spiral taper (cone) when looked at from the reel to the tip. Some casting concepts are based on the cone and an attempt to keep the cone pure.

If you look at it from the side however one sees a Sin wave pattern and the LCAG and KR concept are based IMO on controlling the wavelength and keeping the wave pure (Microwave sound familiar)

This principle accompanied with the anti-tangling properties of the K Series helps achieve this and the anti tangle properties of the K series nullifies the effect of wind and water.

With the small size and varying heights of the KR guides the Cone of Clight is matched to where it is reduced to almost a ZERO size (ie choke point)

The High to medium step of the first 3 guides in the guide train stabilise the wave (cone) and bring it down to the choke point.

Then a series of Low, Light, Small guides keep the line/braid following the true curvature of the blank thereby keeping a smooth flow, increasing the power and sensitivity of the rod.

I was a doubter but as I always say..... Om te Meet is Om te Weet (to measure is to know)

I use the same rod, same reel, same line, same weight and just change guide train and guide concept and as far as possible cast under similar to same weather conditions and physically measure the cast improvements

The measured differences on Light to Medium Land Based spinning rods can be as much as 27% difference, making an OK rod a precision tool. The maths and CAD computer programs are important and make a huge difference but the angler wants to have a rod that cast's further, more accurately and handles a fish when it is hooked.

Component reliability and durability, once again only Fuji... they pioneered the concept and have the most robust and reliable products to achieve this

Tackle-holic
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Recent KR Concept build at the UPPER end of light tackle spectrum
10'6' Oval butt / Sensation Rugged blank, throws 1oz about 105m 3 oz just over 145m
Smallish reel: Sustain 6000, 25lb Suffix 832 braid 50lb whiplash leader
Super light in the hand, could fish all day (nearly) Would prefer my 9' for all day cast after cast after cast after cast...
Granted its not casting to 200m but the6oz required to reach thus would mean a BEEEG spoon and BEEEG heavy rod that I could not cast all day.

Attachment: IMG_2057.jpg (Downloaded 724 times)

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
I did not take any photos (doffie) of another successful build:
I recently bought and rebuilt a 7' Daiwa Megaforce M rod for a mates 40th birthday present with KR setup.
Pre rebuild it could not consitently cast a 23g Onde Onde more than 50m.
Post rebuild was comfortably doing 75m. Consistently.
My casting spot became a joke as there is a tree and spruit at 70m that I used as a marker. Every bleeding cast went over the spruit into the trees.
Happy days!

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
Nicely brought back to basics
Apologies if i was starting to sound engineer-ish or speaking gibberish.
What I, and I think most other fishermen wants is a rod that casts FURTHER, is LIGHTER in the hand and will pull the skin off of a week-old boarding school custard.
Put the right sized lure, at the right depth and right speed in front of a fish and half the game is won... Match the hatch anyone?

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
Lovely rods.
R6300.00 for smallest/lightest one. R7800 for the big boy...
Mein Gott in Himmel!
Methinks South Africans have a good deal. Way, way less than half of that will buy a fantastic rod customised to a specific reel and casting set up...

OTGman
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New guide concept. This is my braid setup.

Attachment: ngc rod.jpg (Downloaded 718 times)

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My KW setup NGC (New Guide Concept)... (mentioned in earlier non KR post)
Purglass 300/3 KW30/25/20/10 5x KT10 to MN10 tip
Beast of a rod, nice for yellowtail at St Francis...
Not that I get to go there, but still....

Attachment: IMG_2066.jpg (Downloaded 714 times)

OTGman
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Mana: 
If you want to discuss engineering, I can discuss engineering on how to break a monofilament line to the microscopic level but let's keep this simple since we are not suppose to be inventing anything new.

All polymer (mono or braid alike) will have a modulus of elasticity. This govern how 'durable' a line is in fishing, casting, pulling a load etc.

Modulus of elasticity (fixed value) = stress/ strain

Stress = Force from sinker/ cross section area of line

Strain = stretch / length of line

In laymen terms, other than use of a heavier sinker, the other way to break a line is to stretch it fast enough before it regains its shape.

So what are the things in a rod that causes stretch of mono? The choking guide.

In NGC, line flows in 2 different speed. Line thru running guide is fastest. Line from reel to choking guide is slower. To understand this look at a river channel, the water is always fastest at the part when its narrower.

So what happens when line is slow in running guides and your spool still supplies line due to momentum of the initial cast? You get backlash for multiplier and guide wraps for fixed spool. This usually happens under 1 circumstance- the shockleader knot hitting the tip. But this is unrelated to the topic, if you had read this paragraph you've wasted 1min of your life.

If the same line is subjected to 2 different speed, what happens? It stretches.

If you are unlucky, it breaks a few metres below the shockleader. If you are lucky, it stretches and the line weakens slightly but you'd still land a fish because your past experience tells you not to set a heavy drag.

These 2 ways to break a mono line is useless but when you think of how to make your fishing line last longer and fail safe, it starts to become useful.

Braid has low stretch which also means small amount of elongation. It does not behave the same manner as mono. The faster you can choke the line, the better to counter the erratic line flow/ wind factors. When you have a line that has alot of speed in the smaller running guides, it is less likely to succumb to wind direction. Since there is minimal stretch, the faster line drives the remaining portion of the line.

I will write on how to use a high swing pendulum to break a guide when I have the time.

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Nice. Fishing rods I am building, or am interested in, are for braid, so choke faster is the clearly the way to go. I enjoy braid but do understand that it does have its limitations.

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Works just as well on low diameter mono (under 0.25mm)

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Shimano Beastmaster Dropshot 8' 3-28g
Was very unhappy with its first (pre rebuild...) outing, tip vibrated terribly after every cast and distances casted were hopeless, 40m was an achievement. I was regretting my purchase.

Guide layout was mock New Guide Concept but the height of the stripping guide and the next 2 intermediates was too low, causing slap against the blank reducing distance.

The tip had too few and too HEAVY guides on the tip resulting in a bouncing tip after every cast

Used a KLH20-KLH10-KLM7 reduction train with size 8 size 5 guides to the tip.

What a difference. Tip-oscilation of tip was gone and distance jumped to 65-70m

Remember that this is a light rod designed for casting weightless or lightly-weighted soft plastics (its what I bought it for) It was not designed for long casts with 1-2oz spoons...

Attachment: Beastmaster 01.jpg (Downloaded 685 times)

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Rod under load

Attachment: Beastmaster 03.jpg (Downloaded 685 times)

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Picked up 2 brand new rods on Wednesday for KR Concept rebuilds, both on Mitsubishi HMG blanks, so well worth the effort. Will post some pics of the blanks taped up for test casting, any comments or questions will be appreciated.

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Reduction train, KL20H to KL10H to KL7M to KT7 (choke guide) spaced over 575mm, KL20H stripper/collector guide @ 475mm from tip of spool axle

Attachment: image.jpg (Downloaded 674 times)

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Rod is being set up for a 4000 sized Shimano hence the fairly close (although not extreme) stripping guide. Should give nice quick reduction to the running guides without any line slap.

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Just by looking at the taped guides I can see the projected flow of line.

What I have found however, to be able to help with fine tuning and visualisation is to fit the reel but without the spool on.

I then attach some hi-viz yellow dacron onto the shaft (if you don't have then some thick white string will do the trick)

Thread it from the reel shaft through the guides to the choke point and you will immediately be able to shift the guides to keep the line flow straight through the centre of the guides down to the choke point.

This keeps the Cone of Flight (COF) unimpeded to the point where the core is 0mm in size.

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That is good advice and easier than using a table edge, the reel always seems to cause the rod to "want" to fall off the edge....

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This thread has got me thinking a bit and I had the chance To tape up a rod worth these principles.

What I did find is that the choke of fight is held true and from the point where the cone is reduced to a single strand the line flow is channelled into a series of small guides that keep the line flow true to the bend of the blank.

This means more of the rod is used making it more Sensitive, more Accurate, more Powerful and all in all more of the blank is used.

The advantage of this, going back to your beastmaster is that you can fit BKTAG 5.5 which are ultralight and fully suited to the tackle the rod is rated for. Now the tip bounce will be null and the rod will probably pull double as hard as it did previously.

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KR guides very good at adjusting the COF to bring the line down faster than a New Guide Concept build.
The projected choke point for THIS layout is 1050mm from the spool axle.
NGC or 27x method puts choke at 1350mm.
This allows me to put 1 or 2 extra running guides onto the mid section.
Which will help both with line-flow and line control as well as extracting more fish fighting, strike and casting power from a relatively light blank (8' 15-45g)
Out if interest I used AutoCAD to draw up the layout and make sure there was a bullseye from stripper to choke.

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Tackle-holic wrote:
That is good advice and easier than using a table edge, the reel always seems to cause the rod to "want" to fall off the edge.h...

I would like to see the pics you do the demo with to show it with the thick yarn in so non rod builders can see what you and I see in the pics you have posted.

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Funny, I put BKTAG 5's on the tip section. Bounce is gone. Wonder what difference titanium framed guides would make? Other than the cost of course.... One day when I am rich and shameless I will do Torzite ringed titanium framed guides!

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Will take some photos as soon as I am back home

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Hope picture is clear. KR calls for imaginary line from axle to run on the outside edge of the guides...

Attachment: image.jpg (Downloaded 632 times)

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Shows lime from spool axle

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Perfect example, this just shows the inclusion of the COF into a guide spacing system.

This is probably the only system that gives you free line flow starting low in the butt section of the rod and then with small light guides use 100% of the tip.

This all shows why especially for spinning applications this allows for best casting performance and the strongest possible configuration for hook setting and pulling.

These Mitsubishi Blanks will allow you to cast weightless lures but still have enough strength to handle a 10kg Garrick

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Enigma, thanks for taking an interest, nice to know that I am either not the only lunatic partial to these concepts or that perhaps I am not mad after all...

I have been looking for commercially available KR Concept builds
And apart from the visuals on Shimano USA's website of the new Cumara rods, have not come across one in SA.

Any ideas as to why this is? Are we in SA perhaps too sceptical of ideas like this?

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Closest to this concept are the Amia rods and they work very well.

Other than that us South Africans try and redesign the wheel.

Lowriders have been in use internationally since 2000 and our freshwater anglers only took to them in 2008 and I know of very few SA R&S guys using them......they are still using antiquated flip up guides on grinder rods ...... (we are the only country on the planet using the Flip Ups)

K Series on the Surf Rods have been brought in by Kingfisher on their Saltiga rods 6 years after they were used just about everywhere else in the world.

Shimano has a few rods now close to the principles as you are using ie the AeroCast and some of their heavy popping outfits use the K series.

I mean South Africa surf anglers fish braid on NLG guides and wonder wehy after a season their braid is all fluffed up and breaking....... the NLG has been turned to fine sand paper and abraids the braid every meter it travels over the guide...... save R400 building the rod and destroy R2000 of braid in the rods lifetime and then loose a few trophy or competition winners........

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Penny wise Pound.....
NLG's are antiques aren't they?😁
Just went to test the premise that NGC and mono are not friends
Really? Felt and sounded awesome.
Granted it was a (Fuji Alconite) low rider equipped rod, but still...

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Any thoughts on a beefed up surf rod friendly version on the KR bait casting set ups for the multiplier boys out there?

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I fully support u to redesign the wheel. Even if u redesign the concept I will still support u. Because end of the day like what you mentioned, it may not work due to the fishing requirement, budget and preference of most angler. So this is the only way to study how these concepts come about. I wont be surprised if u mix different guides and have a variant that cast further or make the rod recover even faster. Because the way I fish is abit different thus lead to some difference in thinking.
I need to cast as far as possible and from there reel in 10m of line every 5min. Simple reason is because we do not have productive areas where waves break. Waves breaks on our feet. No breakers only jetty. Our shore is endless stretch of sand with nothingness. Now u know why I keep talking about distance and envy how you guys fish.

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I will have a bash at it and see how it goes!
Just unearthed a 28 year old ABU Ambassadeur 8000C...
It has been serviced recently so is in working order.
Strapped it to my 11' Low Rider rod (8 guides + tip) with a plate type reel seat over the xflock grip (low position)
Was expecting the worst as I have not cast a multiplier on over 12 years!
It was awesome!

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Tackle-holic wrote: I will have a bash at it and see how it goes!
Just unearthed a 28 year old ABU Ambassadeur 8000C...
It has been serviced recently so is in working order.
Strapped it to my 11' Low Rider rod (8 guides + tip) with a plate type reel seat over the xflock grip (low position)
Was expecting the worst as I have not cast a multiplier on over 12 years!
It was awesome!



Let me help you. Abu 8000C, NGC concept on [insert brand and model] rod... GREAT

I do see from start you are asking for opinion but all you do is simply use NGC and claim that field casting and casting performance is not related. No measurement of data from COF, no comparison, no mentioned of reel, type of cast, line etc. In summary, sheer awesomeness of randomness. Why did I even bother to show you how NGC and COF looks like?

I am talking about fieldcasting not tournament or competitive casting. I have not mentioned or copy/paste UKSF or JSCF competition criteria. Fieldcasting - taking your equipment to go to field and cast to compare how to achieve the best desirable effect. Desirable effect = distance, weight reduction, line wrap elimination etc. It's even goes to the extent that we even use LCSG, ELCSG, CLCSG, TLCSG, BLCAG all on the same rod 6+1tip (Fuji TMNST which happens to rust surprisingly), soak the rod in river water which is slightly saline and refuse to wash for 1 year to see which guides rust faster.

You mentioned cast great, but what is criteria for a great cast? Danny does a great cast, I sometime do a great cast, you most of the time do a great cast. Everyone else does an not-so-great cast but still lands fish.

A rod that fulfill the criteria to be able to be brought on field and measured will be able to assess if the word 'GREAT' can be used. I really feel great, I think I am gonna go fishing later.

I did not comment that KR concept is terrible. I am only asking you to use KR concept to use COF/ NGC or any other. Don't know why you are so defensive.

Last edited on Sat Mar 22nd, 2014 09:46 pm by OTGman

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Alfred. I am not being defensive at all. Just shared that I took out an old unused multiplier reel and gave it a bash on a rod set up with low riders for a grinder. It was just interesting. I was intrigued as to how it would perform.
Some of the best and most useful information I have picked up prior to joining this forum was reading YOUR posts when I was just an anonymous reader too scared to say anything.
I value your input and experience tremendously. Not once have I said field casting and comparing before and after is not useful.
How could tha ability to throw further ever be of no use? A man who can throw 200 has the ability to throw shorter when required, a man who can only manage 50m will be limited if conditions dictate he needs to throw further.

Out if interest the rod I question was most definitely quantified before and after the LC conversion. 3 snap offs out of 8 casts and nothing better than 70m is most definitely down on the post rebuild.

I am not a good caster, so would never criticize someone who clearly is!

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Alfred. I am not being defensive at all. Just shared that I took out an old unused multiplier reel and gave it a bash on a rod set up with low riders for a grinder. It was just interesting. I was intrigued as to how it would perform.
Some of the best and most useful information I have picked up prior to joining this forum was reading YOUR posts when I was just an anonymous reader too scared to say anything.
I value your input and experience tremendously. Not once have I said field casting and comparing before and after is not useful.
How could tha ability to throw further ever be of no use? A man who can throw 200 has the ability to throw shorter when required, a man who can only manage 50m will be limited if conditions dictate he needs to throw further.

Out if interest the rod I question was most definitely quantified before and after the LC conversion. 3 snap offs out of 8 casts and nothing better than 70m is most definitely down on the post rebuild.

I am not a good caster, so would never criticize someone who clearly is!

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I can only comment if you quantify. If you wanna ask about titanium tip, this is my recommendation.

The Fuji titanium tip TMNST is made of 2 alloys, a titanium alloy welded to an allow of ferrous metal. IT WILL RUST.

The Fuji titanium guide do not spring back to original shape, if hit by hard object it will remain deformed. But you can bend it back by hand. So you can imagine how ductile it is.

 

The reason why people use titanium components:

1) To reduce overall weight, so that the rod recovers even faster which is suppose to give more distance (provided you can cast faster than the tip recovering)

So if you have a rod you are struggling to bend, do not use titanium guides. Use any guide that is heavier than original guide. The rod slows down, but it is not necessarily worst than having a pole with zero flex no different from lamp post.

2) Titanium forms oxide which acts as passive layer protecting base metal from corrosion. I use Fuji's and American Tackles' both has no rust after not washing for 1 year. Same material they use to make body piercing.

3) Because there are already factory built rods that come with it

 

After using titanium guides, my review is unless you are too lazy to wash else don't use it. If a rod stiffness/ recovery is carefully selected before buying, you won't even want to spend on titanium to stiffen the rod. Unless it's a rod of sentimental value and slower than modern day's rod. 

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OTGMAN,

Could never justify titanium purely on cost, but it us encouraging that they are not always the best solution - ductility being a good point...
Considering I wash my tackle after every outing and not just after a weeks worth if fishing I think SS will be fine...
Hell, I live so far from the sea I am often reduced to getting my fishing fix by taking all my reels apart and servicing them for good reason...
Polishing rods with carnuba wax and clay might also be excessive!

I am clearly enthusiastic about KR... But I do know it is not suitable for all applications. Thread was started because I was excited about its use for lure spinning rods (LBG as the Aussies call it) for fish like Garrick, Kob ang Kingfish. Certainly not for monster casting machines or shark taming rods... I enjoy light tackle fishing.

That being said, I have read about some US based anglers using them for shark rods.

Some of my ideas and applications are being influenced by a couple of American builders who really believe in the KR concept as viable for surf use.

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When it comes to Multiplier casting especially with heavier lines and weights I think I'll stick to K and MN series guides as I am a caster of leaders and leaders up to 1.6mm thick.

On my 7-10' Spinning rods I'm going to seriously look to the KR. I test casted the 10'6" KR concept rod with 10lbs Jerry Brown braid and 3.5oz Needle nose plug. Was getting consistant 145m accurate cast. Switched to 3oz lead (using 40lbs JB Leader)and climbed into it on the field and get a top cast of 172m so reckon a 160m cast with small bait and 3oz no problem. (Reel was Shimano XT-RB 6'000)

The other thing I found with the way you set the rod up is that it is very accurate and not one cast off, no matter how violently I cast. (Remember with me it's all BRUTE force and Ignorance when it comes to casting)

If I want it to go further I cast it harder......

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Enigma,
I am super pleased you like it and approve!

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What happens when you put the choking guide not in accordance to 27x spool size? Have u tried and questioned why this guideline came about? If so, have u ever seen rods that allow u to use eg. 24x spool size and choke the line more rapidly to transition into running guide faster to further reduce tip weight?

Based on the variety of size within k series this can be done and can also be seen as an advantage over other concepts. Provided you are willing to explore.

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I am very keen to experiment
The 10'6" was not built on 27x spool dia principle, initial layout and choke point were adjusted and adjusted...
Was built by placing stripping guide to catch the coils reduce slap to 0 and then choke at approximately the same distance (slightly less) as stripper to reel as stripper to choke, no slap between guides, it works out at 19x spool diameter
I am busy experimenting with other non 27x choke points.
A St. Croix that I have just finished comes out at about 21x dia

27x works though if you are building a generic set up.
I think Tim Kirkman came up with 27x before the huge increased popularity in braid so could be more mono friendly?

Enigma
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The reel I had on the 10'6" meant it was at about 17.5 X the spool dia before we got to the first guide

Tackle-holic
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Spool dia?

Enigma
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Why you want to know?

Tackle-holic
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Useful info: spool dia multiplied by 17.5 is distance to choke guide from spool axle (tip) could work it out backwards....

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Tackle-holic wrote:
I am very keen to experiment
The 10'6" was not built on 27x spool dia principle, initial layout and choke point were adjusted and adjusted...
Was built by placing stripping guide to catch the coils reduce slap to 0 and then choke at approximately the same distance (slightly less) as stripper to reel as stripper to choke, no slap between guides, it works out at 19x spool diameter
I am busy experimenting with other non 27x choke points.
A St. Croix that I have just finished comes out at about 21x dia

27x works though if you are building a generic set up.
I think Tim Kirkman came up with 27x before the huge increased popularity in braid so could be more mono friendly?


You are right. The 27x spool diameter is a concept so that the reel can cast both mono and multiplier. 27x logic is something derived before lowriders/ K series appear.
When the line does not break (in his hands or whoever designed it), it doesn't mean it will never ever break on other people's hands. Quite frankly, I have been trying to use 27x because I do not want to reinvent the wheel. The more time/ money I waste, the less time/money left to use on fishing/casting.
Because I view 'flex test' and 'smallest guide possible' as top requirements, 27x logic never ever worked for me.
My unfriendly and direct opinion: Do not bother about 27x logic when using KW or LC.

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With KR try about 20-24 for braid set ups....
Not suggesting KR is better than your current set ups, but worth trying..
For "bigger" rods try KL25H to KL12H to KT10 at choke then stress test the rest of the blank with KT10's, guide closest to tip no more than 130mm from tip
Can also try 25H to 12H to 8M to KT8 choke

OTGman
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Tackle-holic wrote:
Any thoughts on a beefed up surf rod friendly version on the KR bait casting set ups for the multiplier boys out there?

No matter what guides Fuji invents, the most important thing to check is : Does a line of sight appear from top of reel to tip guide after taping them on. If you cannot see the opening of tip, you are 'deliberately thumbing your spool from start til end of cast'.
You will backlash more easier since the guides are hindering your line yet your reel keeps feeding.

For multiplier casting, build on guide that is lowest height but allow line or shockleader(if any) to go through. Low profile tournament cage for multiplier has been made to make the spool sit closer to blank. People like TG and other UK casters setup their own company to make such components to allow spool to go even nearer. This allow using guide with lower height which usually is lighter.
Lower height means closer resemblance to the natural curve of the blank- the way the rod is designed to be.

Before there is Akios reel, there are alot of people willing to spend 50pounds to buy a tournament cage to replace their original cage whereby the reel is only 100pounds.

In short, for fishing anything will do. For fishing and casting further, use lowest guide possible.
The rod below is meant for low reel, I put my reel high up on right hand, the tip guide cannot be seen. Conclusion: My camera is lousy.

Attachment: spacing.jpg (Downloaded 579 times)

Last edited on Sun Mar 23rd, 2014 06:15 pm by OTGman

kitefisher
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May I ,without interrupting you guys whilst you are in your stride,just say that this must be one of the all time, most ''knowledgable-of-their-subject''-bunch of contributors,to any post I have seen on here before.

Jeepers that was a long sentence. Been following this topic since Post no1,keep it coming.

Standing ovation,years of collective experience in motion.

OTGman
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Tackle-holic wrote:
With KR try about 20-24 for braid set ups....
Not suggesting KR is better than your current set ups, but worth trying..
For "bigger" rods try KL25H to KL12H to KT10 at choke then stress test the rest of the blank with KT10's, guide closest to tip no more than 130mm from tip
Can also try 25H to 12H to 8M to KT8 choke


What I use. For fast rod 10-8-8-10-10-12-16-20. Fast rod = 0-1 underlation after cast.
For slow rod 12-10-10-10-12-16-20. My leader is 80lb braid.
12 is always my choking guide. Stripper guide is always a lowrider 20. The rest all KW or MN.
Before that I am using KW30H, so I do not doubt KL25H won't work. My reels are 72mm diameter, some even more. If I can use KL25H I will definitely use. Why I change to LC20 has to do with field distance and action of my rod.

And if you want to reinvent the wheel, you should not take 27x, 17.5x or whatever as standard. Craig put on guides, defy the logic and end up with a better rod. All rods are different, don't bother with choking guide templates if you want to get casting weapons. I can assure you 101%, if you can choke viciously and end up with no fraps, you are good.

Last edited on Sun Mar 23rd, 2014 06:10 pm by OTGman

OTGman
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And don't look at Fuji templates for building rod. It rarely works when it comes to European rods. My English poor. I copy/ paste what Fuji wrote.

4) The design of K-Series guides enhances the effect of “Rapid Choke” due to the 30-degree slope of the frame and ring. Fuji engineers do not claim that the slope makes Rapid Choke possible, only that the downward facing ring enhances the effect and contributes to overall performance. Because of this effect, Fuji has chosen to expand the K-Series product line as the guide frame of choice for KR CONCEPT layouts.

If you want more choke, take out all the guides you have and put on a table. LC, K, SV, HV, LN, MN whatever. Any model, any size, any height. Put 3 guides at progressive spacing on a broomstick and look through. Take measurement, next time go field, tape them after your running guides. You will have idea of concepts nobody ever think of.

Last edited on Sun Mar 23rd, 2014 06:22 pm by OTGman

OTGman
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Tackle-holic wrote:


I am not a good caster, so would never criticize someone who clearly is!


And by the way, please post video of cast. Specify what rod, length, reel, diameter, distance. I will advise you on one specific cast that can break your current casting distance without swinging leads in the air. If you can do it, you will be able to do tackle test very efficiently and advertise your products showing you don't need brute force to go fishing. You cant use it in water but you will hit 150m easily with one hand.

Last edited on Sun Mar 23rd, 2014 07:35 pm by OTGman

Tackle-holic
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Alfred, the rod Craig tested was not built to 17.5x or on fact anything x spool dia, it just happens to be the factor that comes out if you work backwards. (Perhaps pointing out the limitations of formula builds)
I think the point being made was the same as yours, whilst formulas help to build generic and functional layouts, building to suit a specific rod, reel and purpose can and often will result in some funky layouts.
The 10'6" was built to rapidly choke reasonably fine dia braid as quickly as possible (whilst avoiding constructing line flow and distance) and then to use as many as necessary of KT10 running guides to keep the line conforming to the curvature of the blank.
For throwing smaller sinkers and lures it really seems to offer good performance.
The line is quickly brought to a straight run and then flows straight towards the tip.
For really big fixed spools, I am not sure it will work quite as well, the only way to find out us to TRY

Tackle-holic
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Ok will try to take a video for you to critique
Always keen to learn.
Any guidance on what set up to use?
My heaviest set up is a 11' with LC's
20 16 12 10 8 8 8 and MN8 tip
Reel is OLD Sustain 5000FB (really want to get a high speed grinder!)

Tackle-holic
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Kitefisher, 2 things
1. I have always wanted to learn how to fish with a kite, keen to help?
2. Build a rod or at least rebuild an old unused one... (One you would use for casting not kite fishing) It's heaps of fun and the building journey and results at the end are worth the effort...

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OTGMan,

Would you be keen on trying out a KR build?
Perhaps on an older unused rod?
Would happily draw it up a possible reduction train in AutoCAD for you to have a look at.
Would need some information about the reel.
1. Spool dia (72mm?)
2. Height of spool axle from blank (when spool is fully extended)
3. Distance from reel foot to spool axle tip
4. Angle of spool axle.
5. Reel centre seat to rod butt.

Come on let's try!!

OTGman
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I don't critique. I only advise. Only people who can beat the person in their mirror can critique.

I have one unused blank left. A very challenging one. Its a rod called okuma tundra 15ft full e glass. 3 section. Bends from top to bottom no matter what reel you put on it. Rating 4 to 8oz but i can only cast 2oz on it. I will put any guide for u provided I have those guides. Sadly I only have the following. Mnst 12. Cmnag 10 12 16 20 25 30 lcag 12 16 20. Hvsg 16 20 25 30 40 kw12 16 20 25 30h
I have no sponsors so this is the stuff balance from casting group. I will video my measuring process of that reel so that u know data is not manipulated. What data of the rod do u need?

Tackle-holic
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Not too much re the rod, just where you want to place reel for comfort/casting style.
You say full e glass so I assume it could be described as "slow"..?
Maybe the manufacturer was overestimating its abilities @ 8oz...
Would not be the first....
Any KT10's available for tip section?
Going to use braid? Diameter?

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Tackle-holic wrote:
Ok will try to take a video for you to critique
Always keen to learn.
Any guidance on what set up to use?
My heaviest set up is a 11' with LC's
20 16 12 10 8 8 8 and MN8 tip
Reel is OLD Sustain 5000FB (really want to get a high speed grinder!)


You wanna find one that suits u for fishing is fine. Since the cast is not difficult to execute, you don't need a performance blank even. But general rule of thumb, you will not learn much casting rods in your comfort zone. Choose the technique u use to conduct fishing tackle test. The more you get knock off balance by the rod the easier for you to get pointers from people who knows about casting. Please do not put just slow mo video, it will deter anyone from viewing.

kopstamp
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I read the following: we will spend just about anything to be able to fish!
But really interesting info.

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The thing about sinker rating is practically who does the tackle test. If u have a fishing person do it, you will need a sinker rating up when buying rods that are used for fieldcasting.
See daiwa saltiga ballistic 40-405 or shimano aerocast 425bxg or beastmaster. I think if there are topic in sealine, u will know what are they. Who casted 8oz on them?

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I am a tackle-holic....😄

Building a good rod is not obscenly expensive.
It can be... But does not have to be.

Read Enigmas comment about cheap guides destroying expensive line again. Carefully.

We spend our money on travel to a venue and buying the freshest bait and best lures and good reels and then lessen our chances for success by specifying cheap guides to save a couple if hundred Rand...
How much does a 300m spool of good line cost?
I would want to make it last longer

kopstamp
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I only fish the best i can afford, mkre often than not i spend too much, but touch wood my "gear" bar once has never let me down on a fish.

Tackle-holic
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Always good to use the best you can AFFORD.
Would be nice if we could all afford a Stella or two!

OTGman
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Tackle-holic wrote: Always good to use the best you can AFFORD.
Would be nice if we could all afford a Stella or two!


For this reason, I would advise you to register yourself in forums of different country. Then look at the category in your interest. Because China is invading, they are copying alot of rod/ reel and presenting it with different decal/ color/ price. Even Powerpro braid, they also copied. I know how expensive the Stella is, we all want 1 but have we bothered to do our own research and find the right person to recommend?

A blank with the same power as the Blue marlin 80-430-100 is gonna cost me 85k-100k yen if I buy in Japan. 3 section too, rating 4-6oz. Both rod same weight.

A rod like Daiwa Saltiga Ballistic 40-405 made in Thailand for US market costs me USD458, a Daiwa Japan made model of similar power is gonna cost me USD800-900. Same tonnage, both HMG, 1 with accurate sinker rating, the other with exaggerated rating. Add in shipping and tax, I still save lots of money.

Enigma knows what I want, he recommended the correct rod for me. I enjoy being kicked by the rod and bending it (slightly maybe?) with 4oz at my current state of casting. I need to think on how to re-construct my technique.

Don't be surprised to know that Stella is no longer made in Japan but in a country where workmanship isn't that much expensive compared to Japan. Workmanship in Japan is very expensive, people are well trained and supervised but doesn't mean that all China factory cannot do same job properly.

So now you know why I am still here. On constant lookout for new innovations. :cool:

Enigma
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Brandon...... Kopstamp (Wessel) agrees 100% with you. His rods that I didn't originally build he has had re-done by myself.

He definitely knows the value of the right tackle and is a LC convert on his Grinder rods of which he has the 12' VMax 4-6oz and the 14' Blue Marlin Garrick 3-5oz and not to Forget his 4' Bushman's Special that throws a 3oz Plug and obscene distance for such a small rod (This one is fitted with BKWAG series)

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Tackle-holic wrote: OTGMan,

Would you be keen on trying out a KR build?
Perhaps on an older unused rod?
Would happily draw it up a possible reduction train in AutoCAD for you to have a look at.
Would need some information about the reel.
1. Spool dia (72mm?)
2. Height of spool axle from blank (when spool is fully extended)
3. Distance from reel foot to spool axle tip
4. Angle of spool axle.
5. Reel centre seat to rod butt.

Come on let's try!!


1. 7.2cm - .28mm, 7cm - 0.21mm (All braid joint to 0.55mm braid leader)

2.  10.8cm

3. I think you meant bottom end of axle to blank. 11.8cm

4. 2.8624 deg. Bottom of reel to tip is 20cm. Angle = inverse tangent [(11.8-10.8)/ 20] If you live near the engine, you will know how I derive this.

5. 80.5cm

Last thing I need to remind you. Don't go and plug in my values into

http://anglersresource.net/GuidePlacementSoftware.aspx

You will end up with a concept that

1) I already tested and failed miserably 

2) end up getting nonsense values with choking point above the rod which only bionic eyes can see if I put that reel on a 12ft surf rod.

3) I have a few rods that I can choke even faster than what the software is showing

Any system that you can use on any surf rod is a fool-proof system to build surf rod. I am not interested in systems that works in performance blanks but failed miserably on slow rods. Performance blanks are for those earning a salary by landing trophy fish or casting world records. Not everyone can afford.

I use a MN10 instead of KW10. The wind here is not strong, I have never tangled the tip or running guides if I follow what Enigma says '1st guide 12cm away from tip'. If it tangles, it's because my cast is jerky. All fraps is on stripper guide if any.

Attachment: reading.jpg (Downloaded 588 times)

Last edited on Mon Mar 24th, 2014 12:44 am by OTGman

Tackle-holic
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Point 3: was wanting the distance from reel foot (centre-line) to tip of axle.
This allows me to position the reel on the rod (graphically) knowing where it will sit and position the tip of the spool relative to this.
Are you an high or low position caster? (reel position)?
If up, where do you like the reel seat to be positioned? I know the the Asian standard seems to be about 88cm, but it might not suit your physique.
If low reel, how much butt do you like to have?

Tackle-holic
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So Wessel has been to church then.

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Tackle-holic wrote: Point 3: was wanting the distance from reel foot (centre-line) to tip of axle.
This allows me to position the reel on the rod (graphically) knowing where it will sit and position the tip of the spool relative to this.
Are you an high or low position caster? (reel position)?
If up, where do you like the reel seat to be positioned? I know the the Asian standard seems to be about 88cm, but it might not suit your physique.
If low reel, how much butt do you like to have?


3) 16.5cm

Keep the rod to high position. Rod has EVA foam at butt which I don't wish to remove.

Even if you mount the reel seat at 88cm, my left hand will grip higher and result in 80.5cm. Fuji suggestion is more for Japanese style of casting, wide arm grip to keep reel far away from body. I adopt other means of casting, pushing hand away from body using muscle memory to unwind.

kopstamp
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twice on sunday!

Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
Hi Alfred,

Couple if questions:
Tip and butt dia?
Rod seems to be quite heavy at 41.5oz/1160g, it's mass and length might weigh against it in that it could prove quite difficult to move quickly.

Okuma say it has a quick tip, are they saying flexible and sensitive or quick recovery?

Curve under (light) load? If say you fixed the rod at top and bottom hand positions and hung about 200g from the tip. Where dies the bend start roughly? Half way up the blank?

Brandon

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That's heavier than a 400/8 Purglas which unfortunately doesn't bend when you hand a 250gr weight from it.

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Light tackle nancy that I am....

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Tackle-holic wrote: Hi Alfred,

Couple if questions:
Tip and butt dia?
Rod seems to be quite heavy at 41.5oz/1160g, it's mass and length might weigh against it in that it could prove quite difficult to move quickly.

Okuma say it has a quick tip, are they saying flexible and sensitive or quick recovery?

Curve under (light) load? If say you fixed the rod at top and bottom hand positions and hung about 200g from the tip. Where dies the bend start roughly? Half way up the blank?

Brandon


tip-4.5mm, butt-32mm

200g, Bends at the top most joint, its 3 sect. I don't wanna cast 8oz, please have mercy on me. I know I am not big size. Anything 1-5oz.

It's not fast tapered, its parabolic the last time I saw it being casted. Sorry I don't have his photo. I just collected from him, he said 'go ahead and break it'. He will make a gaff out of it if I can break it.

It will bend throughout on 4oz. I got turn off by it and told you 2oz, maybe I really can do it. As for the top 1/3? Reminded me of carp rods.

I think Enigma would have casted many of such rods 20< years ago when I don't know how to use surf rod yet. It's a very old school kind of rod, like those from my granny's era.

This is a test of modern guide technology on old rods. You should truly be thankful Blue Marlin or Purglas don't make such rods for you. As to whether I can cast fast, I have to since I already agreed to test your concept.

Last edited on Mon Mar 24th, 2014 10:27 pm by OTGman

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Okeedokes.
Re the fast casting, was thinking bigger slower rod can't be moved through the air (at least by someone if my size and strength) as fast as say a lightweight 12 or 13 foot 😁
Slow down the 'swish' and let the length do the work...
It does sound like an old school carp rod.
Let's see what we can achieve with 1.1kg of glassfibre
cause it's fun to try....

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Casted a similar rod in concept from purglas- heavy glass rod- casted a 9once with heavy leader. Found a a fast cast is a big no. But a controlled cast with a dash of speed right at the end gave a nice whip to it and produced satisfactory results. By no means super distance but well above average. Maybe a similar action would result in a good cast OTGman?

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kopstamp wrote:
Casted a similar rod in concept from purglas- heavy glass rod- casted a 9once with heavy leader. Found a a fast cast is a big no. But a controlled cast with a dash of speed right at the end gave a nice whip to it and produced satisfactory results. By no means super distance but well above average. Maybe a similar action would result in a good cast OTGman?
Well above average? So do u find rod with glass allow u to cast easily if they are not so heavy like mine? S-glass is much lighter which I suspect your purglas rod is made of. The rod I have is e-glass and I really dont think it will cast 8oz being at that 1.1kg weight.
I know of a 400g s-glass rod that can handle 3-4oz. So probably the weight will indicate what grade of glass they used.

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Tackle-holic wrote:
Okeedokes.
Re the fast casting, was thinking bigger slower rod can't be moved through the air (at least by someone if my size and strength) as fast as say a lightweight 12 or 13 foot 😁
Slow down the 'swish' and let the length do the work...
It does sound like an old school carp rod.
Let's see what we can achieve with 1.1kg of glassfibre
cause it's fun to try....


Just assume I m small man with long stick will do. There had to be a way for small man to fish with the elephant but I will figure out.

And I just figured out. I will use this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHqVu3A48_s]

Last edited on Tue Mar 25th, 2014 04:44 am by OTGman

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OTG...
I was given Holden's book as a 13 year old, lost it last year.
Damn

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OTGman- this rod was heavy, don't quite think 1.1kg but up there. The rod was the only rod my friend had and he also wanted to fish sharks with us. So I put a torium 50 on and threw in for him. The other guys were getting 60m tops, I got about 85-100m on various casts.

I will see what I can find on that rod, it was a /4 if remember correctly, the it self was very thick.

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OTGman ''Just assume I m small man with long stick will do. There had to be a way for small man to fish with the elephant but I will figure out.''

Using OTG is a very consistent way of comparing results(lead can be placed at exact spot every time),but there are other ways too.

Zziplex M4 EVO ,Daiwa SL30 .40MM mono .70mm leader,200g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GvjY3TN9bQ

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kitefisher wrote: OTGman ''Just assume I m small man with long stick will do. There had to be a way for small man to fish with the elephant but I will figure out.''

Using OTG is a very consistent way of comparing results(lead can be placed at exact spot every time),but there are other ways too.

Zziplex M4 EVO ,Daiwa SL30 .40MM mono .70mm leader,200g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GvjY3TN9bQ



Aerialised side cast... good. M4 Evo doesn't bend in my hands.

Blue Marlin 80-100-430. 4oz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKbJOmZSIdY

Last edited on Tue Mar 25th, 2014 08:20 pm by OTGman

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Very good cast OTGman,vey good.Droplength and position of sinker can bend many strong rods.Unfortunately not always practical for fishing over here,but works well on secluded beaches,safe from other anglers (safety always first). If all physics is removed from a cast,then only the sinker/lead-speed matters. Some people can achieve that optimum speed with long lever moved slower than others with short lever moved faster(same lead-speed achieved=same distance). Some can move even a long lever very fast,and they become world champions. Anglers/Casters must find a ''lever'' that compliments the angler,and not attempt to compliment a rod. Simples.

Apology for digressing from original topic. Very very interesting topic though.

Back to the guide's and spacing
;)

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Hou My Vas Koperaal...

OK, everyone bear with me here, I am going to launch into a bit of a diatribe…..

OTGMan and I have shared a PM or two tonight.
I asked him to share (as long as did not give away any of his secret formulae) his set ups.
I will keep my promise.

The KR Concept makes promises of more rod power, hook setting power etc, but what a LOT of us want is to cast further and more accurately. No?

I have read a fair number of posts on a variety of websites and indeed books such as John Holden’s Long Distance Casting” that multiplier setups inherently cast further. Indeed the world record is held with a multiplier.
But is is it JUST down to the type of reel?
If you had to compare a multiplier rod with a spinning rod what is the biggest difference?
To me it’s the number of guides.
A Shimano Crucial 7’2” spinning rod is fitted with a tip + 8 guides, and equivalent 7’2” casting rod, tip + 9.
Why?
Typically a baitcaster/multiplier reel is LOW to the rod and since the rod is inverted, the line runs close to the blank; what need to be done to avoid line dragging?
Fit more guides.
We (all?) think that guides are the principal source of friction on a rod. Not so. It’s the contact between the line and the rod.

The contact “patch” between even thickish line, say 0.45mm and a size 12 guide is insignificant in comparison to a 40mm or 50mm section of 0.45mm line rubbing against the blank. At high speed it gets worse.

Keep the line close to, but keep it OFF the blank.

I think that most if not all spinning rods would benefit from fitting at least a couple of additional guides to achieve this. (This is where the KR Concept offers a BIG positive; will come to this shortly)

I do understand that when fighting a fish the line is being pulled away from the blank so we could use less guides, but significantly when we cast and the line is flowing from the spool towards the tip; if not kept away from the blank it will be a far more significant source of friction than two or even three extra guides (re read the contact patch bit above and think of a car tyre on the road)

Now to KR:

The concept calls for a stripping guide relatively close to the reel; from there it quickly gets reduced (or choked) down to the blank at a point MUCH closer to the blank than in more old fashioned Cone of Flight or even New Guide Concept builds. This means that we need to fit 1 2 or even 3 more guides…..
I truly believe that the true advantage is the result - MORE guides, not less. More guides closer together KEEP THE LINE AWAY FROM THE BLANK.
More guides spread out over the blank extract more casting power, more power less friction?
Longer casts.

There have in the past been other high framed guides, but NOT with the same advantages of the KL-H guides.
Fuji’s own AT guides are almost as high, but to me look like stretched single foot fly rod guides. They are not stiff enough to resist bending under significant load. Good guides for thin lines at close range they are though…
Also the ant-tangling properties of K series guides (that KL-H guides share) become MORE important if the guides grow taller - there is more of an obstruction for the line to wrap around…
KR Concept simplified is a series of 3-4 guides from stripper to choke that capture the coils and then bring it down to the blank UNDER CONTROL i.e avoiding line slap and its result - friction.
From the choke (first of the smaller running guides) the line runs in one straight line to the tip i.e the smallest cone possible.

Please do not confuse KR with Micro guide layouts, there are some similarities but the differences are big.
Also the fact that most KR layouts you will come across (if you drag the internet they will come up) call for very small 4.5 or 5 running guides DOES NOT mean that this is a rule….

The 10’6 rod that Engima tested uses size 10 running guides… Whilst clearly smaller than a size 12 or 16 guide EASILY allows for a 50lb braid to 25lb braid knot to pass through.
I am planning to test 80lb to 35lb soon. I Have tested 35lb Nanofil to 40lb mono and it goes through no problem.

Thoughts anyone? I have thick skin…

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I have 3 Versions of the 10'6" now.

1. K Series - Low 40-25-20-16-12 (x2) and #16 Tip

2. Low Rider - #20, #16 - 12 - 3 x #10 and #12 Tip

3. The KR Layout #20H #12H #10m 7 x #10 and #12 Tip

All work fine and I am still testing and comparing. The KR layout has the smoothest line tracking of the blank of all. Has the fastest recovery.

I tested all on a 3kg Cinderblock on a smooth cement floor and pulled with the same rod and reel lifting the rod from the Horizontal at a measured 1.2m (parallel to the ground Starting point)

The KR moves the cinderblock earliest indicating it is pulling harder earlier. This means a better hookset and stronger pulling ability.

Because the first guide is much lower on the blank more of the base is used the rod uses it's ability to fight a fish much better.

I'm going to load the reel with 75lbs HMP because casting distances on the 30lbs are to big and needs to much work.

The BKTAG guides have a ringlock fitted guide ring and I fish a 0.60-0.80mm leader without hesitation or damage.

Here I'm old school and prefer full nylon leader when near to any rocks and definitely when fishing off the rocks ie Mazeppa Island.

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To Clarify:
KR is better because you HAVE to use more guides to fill up the space created by faster choking.
And why can't we just go from an "ordinary" stripper straight to a small running guide?
The distance required between the two in order need to create SMOOTH flow opens up the chance for nasty line slap to rear its head, so we reduce the flow (in a cone / bulls-eye pattern from stripper to choke with progressively smaller ringed slightly lower framed intermediate guides.
Like so:
KL25H KL12H KL8M
KL20H KL10H KL7M
KL20H KL10H KL7M KL6L (for rods that bend deeper into the butt section)
KL16H KL8H KL6L (for shorter, lighter rods)
KL16H Kl8H KL6M KL5.5L (light, long more limber rods - fly rod conversions to grunter sticks for unweighted baits..)

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Now here's a thought....
LC20 LC16 LC12 reduction train to a "whole bunch" of KT's....

LC20 for quite possibly the best controller of line coils, reduced down to the blank and then KT's to create a broad spread of load...

I THINk it will work. Lets see:

Will wrap up a 9' Pioneer Crossfire 9' 0.25 to 1.5 ounce stick I have in the garage... (bears no relation to a Daiwa Crossfire...)

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kitefisher wrote: Very good cast OTGman,vey good.Droplength and position of sinker can bend many strong rods.Unfortunately not always practical for fishing over here,but works well on secluded beaches,safe from other anglers (safety always first). If all physics is removed from a cast,then only the sinker/lead-speed matters. Some people can achieve that optimum speed with long lever moved slower than others with short lever moved faster(same lead-speed achieved=same distance). Some can move even a long lever very fast,and they become world champions. Anglers/Casters must find a ''lever'' that compliments the angler,and not attempt to compliment a rod. Simples.

Apology for digressing from original topic. Very very interesting topic though.

Back to the guide's and spacing
;)

You are humble, I think you do a good cast too. I don't like my cast. My right foot is haywire, my left arm is not faster than the rod unless I use 5oz or lengthen the drop. I am learning to cast on one hand, my right hand is suppose to simply hold the rod. It can be done but maybe not without more practice.

OTG is all I do when fishing or a very slow fishing pendulum. I won't have much energy left after hunting for baits.

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Tackle-holic wrote: Now here's a thought....
LC20 LC16 LC12 reduction train to a "whole bunch" of KT's....

LC20 for quite possibly the best controller of line coils, reduced down to the blank and then KT's to create a broad spread of load...

I THINk it will work. Lets see:

Will wrap up a 9' Pioneer Crossfire 9' 0.25 to 1.5 ounce stick I have in the garage... (bears no relation to a Daiwa Crossfire...)


Brandon, don't use the LC16, LC12. Directly use the K series. The rod has more crisp and will help u cast better.

But if you prefer it to have abit more pulling power, use LC16, 12.

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Tackle-holic wrote:
I have read a fair number of posts on a variety of websites and indeed books such as John Holden’s Long Distance Casting” that multiplier setups inherently cast further. Indeed the world record is held with a multiplier.


I have to disagree with you. The person who influenced me to build a mono casting fixed spool rod with COF is the same person who set the record.

I do not know if it is right for me to share too much of what he taught me. But fixed spool pulls line, multiplier feeds line. There will come a poundage of line/sinker which the fixed spool start to deteriorate in UKSF competition standards. Here is the records. Draw a conclusion.






18gm


Multiplier - Dble handed 0.25mm + leader


132.08m


Andy Miller


Junior, Ladies & Light Line


October '07




Fixed Spool - Dble Handed 0.25m + leader


132.70m


Peter Thain


Junior, Ladies & Light Line


May '11










50gm


Multiplier


204.63m


Steve Morris


Junior, Ladies & Light Line


October '07



0.25&0.65mm


Fixed Spool


201.35m


Peter Thain


Junior, Ladies & Light Line


May '11




Backcast


183.31m


Dave Richardson


Junior, Ladies & Light Line


October '09




Groundcast


183.72m


Steve Crimmins


Junior, Ladies & Light Line


October '09










75gm


Multiplier


235.32m


Dave Coad


Junior, Ladies & Light Line


May '11



0.25&0.65mm


Fixed Spool


233.67m


Peter Thain


Junior,Ladies & Light line


May '11




Backcast


224.05m


Dave Richardson


Junior,Ladies & Light line


October '09




Groundcast


221.91m


Steve Crimmins


Junior,Ladies & Light line


October '07










100gm


Multiplier


261.07m


Steve Morris


Junior,Ladies & Light line


October '07



0.25&0.65mm


Fixed Spool


250.03m


Peter Thain


Junior,Ladies & Light line


May '11



(changed from


Backcast


255.35m


Dave Richardson


Zziplex Invitation


August '10



0.28mm from 2007)


Groundcast


237.08m


Jamie Blakeman


Masters Final


October '13










125gm


Multiplier


268.51m


Steve Lewis


Masters Final


October '12



0.28&0.65mm


Fixed Spool


244.50m


Peter Thain


Grand Prix 4


September '11




Backcast


257.49m


Dave Richardson


Zziplex Invitation


August '10




Groundcast


259.19m


Jamie Blakeman


Grand Prix 4


September '11










150gm


Multiplier


265.10m


Andy Copping


Grand Prix 4


September '11



0.31&0.75mm


Fixed Spool (0.35mm)


263-0-10 (240.66m)


Gary Setchell


Zziplex Invitation


August 1988




Fixed Spool (0.31mm)


236.54m


Peter Thain


Grand Prix 4


September '11




Backcast


258.86m


Dave Richardson


Grand Prix 3


May '10




Groundcast


264.88m


Jamie Blakeman


Grand Prix 4


September '11

kopstamp
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There is certainly room for more right arm power. How will a 15"6 be for your fishing?

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Pull your left hand down, the sinker action alone will give the rod its action, but by pulling the left hand down fast it will create even more speed and much more power to the cast. Also your right hand need to "punch" up in a 45degree angle, does not have to be very hard but these two elements will really get the rod going.

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Rocket launchers anyone?
I have actually found a compressed air bait launcher available....
300m
No hard work.
Not much of a challenge
I come from a flyfishing background - when the fishing was *** there was always the pleasure of a really good cast. Same goes for conventional tackle as far as I am concerned. Try to reach further, be more accurate, be technical.
Be better at it.

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Tackle-holic wrote: Rocket launchers anyone?
I have actually found a compressed air bait launcher available....
300m
No hard work.
Not much of a challenge
I come from a flyfishing background - when the fishing was *** there was always the pleasure of a really good cast. Same goes for conventional tackle as far as I am concerned. Try to reach further, be more accurate, be technical.
Be better at it.

Why don't you use a remote control boat to send the line out? Open the bail arm, put the sinker + rig onto the boat. On reaching destination, close the bail arm and the bait+ sinker slides off.

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not so handy for throwing plugs and spoons and soft plastics.

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kopstamp wrote: There is certainly room for more right arm power. How will a 15"6 be for your fishing?

I am very comfortable with most 13ft rods. 15ft 6 kills me, I need to cast even faster with a bigger leverage of the rod acting against me.

I don't wanna punch the rod, it gives people a false impression I am casting very far. The rod will always bend if I punch it. Maybe hard to visualise, next time I do it again I post video.

I just wanna train my left hand 1st and totally don't use my right.

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Nothing beats the sensation of feeling a loaded rod Unload with perfect timing and you see the line peeling off the reel and you know it's a GREAT cast...... So what if the fish are feeding at 50m......... turn to see if anyone saw that lead of yours travelling to the horizon and smile to yourself.

KR Concept is in my opinion a completely different reasoning. It is to provide the opportunity for a rod that casts far (in it's class / application) is accurate (deliver the lure where it needs to be) and Has all the power of the rod available to pull the maximum your tackle will allow (match the reel and line to the rod or end up with broken lines or worse still broken Rod)

I'm enjoying the thread but don't see this application on a rod I use a multiplier on as I will LOSE guides.

I don't see this on rods longer then 12' and only for 12' rods I will be using for spinning but then I will revert to a LC configuration with extra guides to add power and line tracking then I can use it for Bait, Light or Heavy lure fishing

If I plan to use the rod in multipurpose role then I will Use K Series double foot and make sure the guides are matched to prevent line touch to the blank in casting/or when fighting a fish (meaning more guides on the rod than would be used for just a rod used for a spinning reel.

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OTGMan, I'm sure if the Breakawy Canon (Bionic Finger) was allowed in casting then the Fixed Spool will match or surpass the Multiplier?

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Anyway before you guys solve all the problems of line flow issue and achieve more distance, let me confuse you further on the topic of 'blank twist' aka Torque.

 

Attachment: torque.jpg (Downloaded 655 times)

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Enigma wrote: OTGMan, I'm sure if the Breakawy Canon (Bionic Finger) was allowed in casting then the Fixed Spool will match or surpass the Multiplier?
Finally after 1yr, you are the 3rd person who thinks there is hope in fixed spool. There is no restriction in bionic finger, I think the photo I just posted will help you understand why. Hint: It has something to do with pendulum + guides meant for COF mono casting.

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Never said there was anything wrong with fixed spool reels....
Just think that the rods would be better if fitted with an extra guide or two, what ever type of layout is used

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What a whopping thread,great posts allround.From what I've read and remembered(getting old :-( ) ,just a few opinions.

OTGman ,the best proponent of casting with a ''straight'' right arm/hand must be Poidevin from France,consistently in top 10 at Worlds for a very long time.aka The king of ''leverage''

Records between Multiplier and Fixed spool can be deceiving.For the amount of European/British-Tournament casters using Fixed-spool,the records are very very close,i.e mostly less than 5% distance wise,perhaps even less.If Big D used Fixed as often as Multi,it would be interesting to see records over time.?At the moment not the same ''man-hours'' go into Fixed at Tournaments as for Multiplier.

Enigma,You and everybody here, have a vast knowledge of guides and rods which I do not have and never will have,but if I may wager my opinion on fixed spool for European style Tourney casting it would be this.The minimum leader thickness of leader is .70mm Mono ,even for 100g/3oz,and even with a small knot which can be very small because you don't need to pull a fish on it the crack-offs are incrementally more than for a Muliplier.Difference is the way line comes off spool between Multi and Fixed spool.Coils vs no coils.

The Argentinians have ''solved'' this ''knot''-problem, by ''fusing'' mono and leader together seamlessly by using acid,in fact they believe it it so strong that they even fish with it.(pretty much the same as tapered leader (which may not be used at Tournaments),but they go directly from mainline to leader ,seamlessly,pretty neat once you've seen it.

Back to the point of Fixed in Distance casting,Mono,even .25mm will empty the spool quickly and friction against the spool lip is a factor in older reels without Ultegra/Bull's-eye or Basia-type spools.
Fixed is also affected more by wind that is not right from behind the caster.Perhaps more line than what the lead needs is blown from the rod-tip,or even between the spool and first guide.More line in the air with a cross-wind will possibly mean the lead has to pull harder to achieve same distance as Multi. Multi cannot have too much line between spool and first guide as that is immediate break-off,so I suspect that too much line outside tip is not the main culprit.

There will not be one rod for many applications,one rod may be used for many applications,but will most likely not be the BEST for any of them,although still good enough for most(if that makes sense).Finding this ''holy-rod'' for each application,is a lifetime journey and part of the joy of fishing and casting.

Cheers

p.s OTGman and Kopstamp,this video is an example of a fairly straightish Right arm which makes it necessary for a very strong left-arm pull.In other video's this caster maintains an even straighter right arm. Try it sometime,slightly longer drop as the first ones tend to go lowish and leftish(for right-hander),thereafter,once the exagerrated left-pull has become muscle-memory, the distance can only improve.The low and left is due to later release of spool because of overly concentrating on pulling harder/faster with the left-hand.

http://youtu.be/p9Vfv49M1pU

Last edited on Wed Mar 26th, 2014 06:10 pm by kitefisher

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I have been punching my rods for too long and haven't found any way to improve. Tried it for 6mths and starting to see improvement. The logic is nothing new, it is from brighton cast. High left hand (far from body) pull hard. I didn't notice until my instructor explained to me.

Another person to look at is John De Vreeze. Very relaxed but casting reasonably far.
We shall discuss in kitefishing section, since I already stop discussing about guide concepts already. Thanks for sharing.

Last edited on Wed Mar 26th, 2014 08:10 pm by OTGman

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Re bind of Awa-Shima Beast Shidai 8’ 10-45g

I picked up a couple of Awa Shima rods from Enigma for testing of Factory Build vs Fiji KR when I dropped off the 10’6” Sensation DC

As standard the little 8’ Beast Shidai is a very nice rod that casts well so was a little apprehensive if any improvements would be made….
I would describe rod as having a parabolic bend with VERY quick recovery, it stops dead after a good shake.
Craig demo’d dragging the rod tip down whilst I held on fully expecting the tip section to explode…. it seems Awa Shima are not pulling our legs with their "Super Tips" logo….

RESULTS (I do realise the results are from just me casting and as such are not without flaws)

Std Configuration (9 guides + tip)

23g Onde Onda Spoon average cast 53m
45g lead average cast 70m

KR Concept Configuration (11 guides + tip)
23g Onde Onda Spoon average cast 62m
45g lead average cast 83m

Just for because i tried a 56g/2oz lead: (outside of rods range)
Std rod was overloaded and only managed 74m
KR Concept 89m average.

23g spoon 11m improvement (17%) This was into a head wind yesterday afternoon
45g lead 14m improvement (20%)
56g lead 15m improvement (20%)

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Good research, keep it up. Be sure to test on titaniums. You will love it.

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Brandon do you have some Pics of the Before and after?

How did the KR concept rod feel with the OVER WEIGHT? You said the factory rod felt overloaded with the bigger weight?

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Will take pictures in the morning no light outside, have rigged up a little rod holder jig so I can show the rod under load against a wall.
KR rod felt good with the 2oz load... 90m good...

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Made some adjustments to the layout last night, will test again today to compare, added 1 more KT7 to the mid section and tightened up the reduction train. Will post photo or the revised reduction layout from my phone.

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Adjusted layout:
45g lead 90m. much more would be down to better casting..
Description of photo included as part of post:
1. Highest rod shown in photo shows the blank loaded at the tip eye with 9oz of lead
2. Middle rod is the standard layout
3. Bottom rod the KR layout.
Before you get excited and assume more guides make the rod worse off, the addition of guides and change in layout have allowed for the more powerful butt section of the rod to come into play i.e flex.
This is the area where energy is stored.
Note that the blank in question has a parabolic bend i.e. flexes right into the butt section when fully loaded.

Attachment: Tip load compared to standard layout compared to KR layout copy.jpg (Downloaded 592 times)

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Close up of tip section

Attachment: Tip load compared to standard layout compared to KR layout detail.jpg (Downloaded 593 times)

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Tested an additional KR rod today:
Awa Shima Pursuit 9’ 8-25g
Fantastic rod if you want to drop shot/fish with soft plastics and a jig head and throw spoons and hard-bodied minnows be it off the stones or in an estuary . I think I might need one. Need, not want....

Test equipment:
15g: Rapala Maxrap 13
23g: Onde Onda 23g
45g: tear-drop sinker
Line: 8lb Berkley Fireline

Factory Layout
15g: 45m
23g: 68m
45g: 82m

KR Concept Ver 01 (Stripper @ 445mm from spool axle, choke @ 1040mm)
15g: 62m (17m improvement 37.7%)
23: 78m (10m improvement 14.7%)
45: 88m (6m improvement 7%)

For me the huge improvement in the lightest weight is significant, the Maxrap 13 tends to tumble at the end of its flight path as it slows dow.
It means that light jighheads with smaller soft plastics will be a doodle to throw 40-45m. Small bullet spoons will be a joy to throw.
The blank is sensitive and has heaps of power in the butt.

Chuffed.

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That'll be a perfect rod for the Swartkops where small lures with light presentation is needed to sort a Grunter or 2.

The amount of performance increase shown on the lighter stuff is phenomenal. Just shows what a bit of research and fine tuning can do for a even a good piece of equipment.

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I think the heavier weights are pulling line off too quickly.
You can actually hear the line rubbing against the rim of the SPOOL wrrrrr (no noise from the guides)
I have written down the guide-to-guide measurements of the reduction train so that I can revert back to them:
I have just moved the stripper and 1st intermediate guide closer to the tip to give the line more space to reduce its cone diameter (everything else stays as is) to see if I can MAINTAIN the light lure performance and further improve the heavier lure performance.
If the 15g lure performance suffers, I will go back to previous layout.
I would rather be able to throw a 15g Maxrap or 17g Strikepro Walking Stick to an EASY 50-55m than throw a 1.5oz spoon to 95m; there are rods better suited for the longer heavier job....
Nice to know that if you only take one rod down to the river it can do both jobs well.

Like I said, I need one of these rods...
Will just add to my list of must have rods! Will need to build myself a tackle room soon at this rate of "Need to have" rods.

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Comparison of the two KR Layouts:

KR Concept Ver 01 (Stripper @ 445mm from spool axle, choke @ 1040mm)
15g: 62m (17m improvement 37.7%)
23: 78m (10m improvement 14.7%)
45: 88m (6m improvement 7%)

KR Concept Ver 02 (Stripper @ 510mm from spool axle, choke @ 1040mm)
15g: 60m (15m improvement 33%)
23: 74m (5m improvement 7.4%)
45: 90m (6m improvement 9.75%)

Looks like ver 01 was the better layout; moving stripper out improved the heavy casting ability but reduced the performance of the lighter weights.
I have reverted back to Ver 01.

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A graphic representation of the benefits of KR over NGC and standard micro layouts

Attachment: kr_concept1.jpg (Downloaded 562 times)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ANbtcbNvYU

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Re bind of Shimano Beastmaster Dropshot 8’ 3-28g

As standard the 8’ Beastmaster was very disappointing:
Rod tip oscillated horribly after every cast; distance was way below expectations (read hopeless)

I would describe blank fast actioned; soft tip with relatively stiff butt, WITHOUT guides it stops dead after a good shake; convinced me that the guides fitted by the factory (especially to the tip section) were too heavy.

RESULTS (I do realise the results are from just me casting and as such are not without flaws)

Test equipment:
Reel: Shimano Symmetre 4000
Line: Berkley Nanofil (measured average dia dia 0.23mm)
Leader: Berkley Whiplash 50lb (over the top I know but I wanted a worst case test)

Std Configuration (8 "Shimano" SIC guides + tip)

23g Onde Onda Spoon average cast 50m
45g lead average cast 65m

KR Concept Configuration (11 guides + tip - guide spacing, other than reduction train, set up only using static loading to get line to follow blank curve as closely as possible)

23g Onde Onda Spoon average cast 72m (20g Halco Streaker spoon threw equally as far)
45g lead average cast 89m

23g spoon 20m improvement (40%)
45g lead 24m improvement (37%)

Very pleased, have a lovely rod for fishing soft plastics as well as hard bodies and spoons. Sensitive AND capable of thowing far.

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I would love the chance to have a chance at re-doing an Amia with a KR Concept layout.
I might be proved wrong, but I really think it would increase the performance of an already good rod to a level that would be incredible.

Attachment: 900x900px-LL-6ff1305e_20H-10H-7L-actual-photo.jpeg (Downloaded 538 times)

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Nice depiction of the difference between ordinary guides and the high frame small ring KR Guides.

Attachment: IMGP5586.jpg (Downloaded 534 times)

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Anyone with an oldish rod they want to rebuild (themselves?)
Offer to a do a DECENT layout based on blank type; specific reel and line; will provide a drawing of the layout to make it all easier to build....
Drawing would look similar to attached Low Rider layout. Dead easy to use...

Attachment: Untitled.jpg (Downloaded 518 times)

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Very interesting post guys ! I had learned lot how imported are the CORRECT Rod Guides. Keep posting !

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C'mon let's build a rod!!!!!
Dig through your stash of old but loved sticks and find a good 'suspect' for a good KR Concept re-build!!!!

I have been told by certain members (enigma are you listening?) of this forum that I am a little obsessed with how good KR is.....

I'll help for free and for gratis!!

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The Switchblade 9'3" is now at Trophy Tackle den for testing, details will also be posted on Facebook.

I finished the Graphcast III that will be heading to Durban this weekend.

MArk took the 8' Shidai blank and went casting a Tiny bullet spoon and get very close to 100m on the 16lbs Jigman so he is in for a 8' Shidai KR Concept.

HE's not at all sold on changing his Seagrand 10'6" DC from it's low riders though..... He's caught to many Kob, Snoek and Blacktip GT's with it to want to consider changing it.

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Whoo hoo!
Re the DC, the low rider version is awesome, the KR version is too, but just feels different, more pulling power mostly.....
I want one of each... Just get him to try both versions...,

That 8' Shidai is a sleeping monster - no one would believe its abilities until they tried one.... Itty bitty lures to 45g spoons all in a day's work, and could pull the jaw bone out of a leerie if it was asked to.

Wait for the 9'8" Switchblade.....

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His 19'6" LC's start low on the blank with 2 additional #8's so it has the same grunt as the Kr. Just had more robustness that the LC's give

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Carll wrote:
Very interesting post guys ! I had learned lot how imported are the CORRECT Rod Guides. Keep posting !

Hi Carll,

K series are very versatile guides. You can rung it on a rod for fixed spool and multiplier reels. Because the fishing scene in Asia is spacious to execute casts deploying bigger arc, they have been tested with braid on rods with alot of bend. I personally have tried 6-7oz to test certain UK style rods, not more because we rarely use above 5oz even for fishing. This is my take on how it works:
The KW series has a thicker frame that withstands brutality more than the conventional MN guides which are used for multiplier. Thus these guides are developed to remove braid entanglement that are able to tear guides out of the rod or even on worst scenario press the guide feet into the rod blank. The tangle will shed and the frame will resist distortion. You will find them on factory built Century fishing rods too. Neither do these guides cost more than its predecessors.

I have yet to tangle any guides when casting multipliers on mono or braid. So it wasn't of much importance to upgrade all my rods to K series because we do not have exceptionally strong wind.

For fixed spool, which usually depend alot more on spiral flow of braid from those modern Shimano zero degree reels, we had to make the change. The reels are designed to dispense line in a direction zero degree to the rod blank. So while these reels feed line in a 'parallel to blank' manner, the guide has to control the over-run generated in the process. Even if the reel weren't designed as zero degree, changes are still made as the guides were much lighter compared to others.
When lighter guides goes on the rod, there are lesser load on the rod before you even cast it. If you had selected a rod capable of being casted, this is actually an advantage- more rod power without buying new rod. But if the rod is already overpowering the user, you may think twice.

So in a nutshell, this is how the K series works. Be it KW KR KT. I still use the lowriders as a bottom guides though for purpose unrelated to catching fish.

;)

Last edited on Sat May 17th, 2014 06:29 am by OTGman

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Enigma wrote:
His 19'6" LC's start low on the blank with 2 additional #8's so it has the same grunt as the Kr. Just had more robustness that the LC's give

Fair enough, have done similar with a 9' .5-2.5oz rod of my own, first LC is at 630mm from the reel seat centre and casts very well with a 4000 size grinder.

KR is not the only good guide set up, Low Riders are killer guides too, love them on my 11'

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How crucial is it t fit KR concept guides with the intended reel that would be used on the rod. Is it possible to achieve the same effect with 2 different sized reels ie a sustain/stradic 5000 (same size) and say a saragosa 6000 with the same guide configuration? I guess what I'm to say is if you have 2 reels intended for a rod that are different sizes, would KR still perform its role as effectively? I understand that it may not perform as well but is it still an option?

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You can definitely design a layout that will work with both reels.
Ideal is of course one-reel specific for the best of the best performance but a layout that fits two reels just takes some fine tuning and compromises.

If the reels are pretty similar in size you would probably not notice the difference.

Design for the bigger reel and the smaller one will be easily coped with by the guide train.

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If it was a 5000 and Gossamer 1800 you would have a problem. I have been testing single setups between 2500 reels to. 10000 BTR's and I think you will only see the differences under extremely closely monitored conditions.


The Graphcast III I just did will be used with a Sustain 5000 and a Gossa 8000sw and both have been tested and both perform great with the same layout.

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Awesome! A gossa 6000 and 8000 are arguably the same size reels and so the guide setup you built that graph 3 with, with those two reels in mind, would probably be the exact same as my future graph 3 then. Cant wait!

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Ask Enigma about the Switchblade 1-3oz....

Attachment: image.jpg (Downloaded 489 times)

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My hearts set on a graphcast hey, been wanting to get 1 for some time now.

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They are lovely blanks!

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Yeah, this thread has opened my eyes to the importance of good guides though and how much of a role they actually play. Awesome thread!

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The Switchblade is at Trophy Tackleden in PE, available for a treat drive. Cats everything a Gc II & III will and weighs in 25 gr heavier as a fully built rods than the GC III blank weighs.

I do have 4 GX III blanks in stock however.

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I will go have a look at it and check it out. Have u seen the new graphcast blanks enigma? They are lightish blue in colour? How do they compare with the older ones?

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Could be proved wrong but from my visits to the CD website, there are quite a few colour options to chose from, makes no diff to blanks performance. Problem is should you want a colour no one has locally bought stock of, you will have a long wait....
Go for stock available in SA...

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Could be proved wrong but from my visits to the CD website, there are quite a few colour options to chose from, makes no diff to blanks performance. Problem is should you want a colour no one has locally bought stock of, you will have a long wait....
Go for stock available in SA...

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Yeah I understand what you saying but as far as I know there are new and older models and quite a price difference between the 2. R600-R700 difference.

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Ouch

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Can't say I can feel the difference in the blank action. The largest portion of the change in price, as with all other things, can be put down to the ZAR/USD exchange rate. Basically cosmetic changes and maybe a bit faster action or at least recovery.


The last black blanks I bought were the same price ie R1300, same price as the new blanks

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Can't say I can feel the difference in the blank action. The largest portion of the change in price, as with all other things, can be put down to the ZAR/USD exchange rate. Basically cosmetic changes and maybe a bit faster action or at least recovery.


The last black blanks I bought were the same price ie R1300, same price as the new blanks

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Yeah I hear you, the prices where actually given to me by commercial marine here in PE. The price on the older 1s could be stock in SA and the newer blanks might still need to be shipped into SA through halco perhaps which would explain the price difference. The new blanks colour appeals to me. I reckon it looks cool colour wise. But like you say, the changes between the new and old blanks are probably only minor changes. (difficult to improve an already good blank I would imagine)

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No the new blanks have been here for a few months already and I have built 3 and have 3 in stock in the workshop and their price is R1300

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Tackle-holic wrote:
Anyone with an oldish rod they want to rebuild (themselves?)
Offer to a do a DECENT layout based on blank type; specific reel and line; will provide a drawing of the layout to make it all easier to build....
Drawing would look similar to attached Low Rider layout. Dead easy to use...


Yeah! I have an old 7 foot Shimano Carbomax baitcaster rod that I want to redo into a spinning rod for the kids. Can I use the existing layout on this sketch?

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Will have a look

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The sketch was just an example if how I do the layouts
It shows a low rider layout.
Will send you a legible sketch for a 7' spinning stick.
Pm me your email address

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The sketch was just an example if how I do the layouts
It shows a low rider layout.
Will send you a legible sketch for a 7' spinning stick.
Pm me your email address

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Hope all of you can see the dimensions....

Attachment: 7 Shimano.jpg (Downloaded 550 times)

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Awesome thanks! Now to start stripping the rod

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Dewald,

Did you start with that 7' KR Build yet?

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Nope, I cannot enlarge the picture enough to read what the guide sizes are...

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Will re-send in PDF via email with larger text

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Baie dankie!

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Hi OTGMan,

In an earlier post in this string you mentioned the Diawa Saltiga Ballistic 40-405 which you noted in your opinion had an exaggerated rating. I would be interested to know what you feel is the more appropriate rating for the rod.

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Nigel66 wrote:
Hi OTGMan,

In an earlier post in this string you mentioned the Diawa Saltiga Ballistic 40-405 which you noted in your opinion had an exaggerated rating. I would be interested to know what you feel is the more appropriate rating for the rod.


Hi Nigel,

4-6oz

I bought the blank and used American Tackle Titan guides to make it very light to cast 5oz.
This is on 4oz. I only use low reel on rods which has butt capable of using my 2 hands to bend when resting it 45degree on floor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLEvJPoSrzQ

I think you can find someone else doing a pendulum on it with 3oz in youtube. Most of the anglers at my end prefer to go for the 35-405 for fishing with 5oz+bait using a simple overhead. The difference between 3 model is the tip.

Last edited on Thu Jun 5th, 2014 09:11 pm by OTGman

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Ok gents, VERY interesting thread you have going here! Bit too technical for this newbie, but extremely thought provoking nonetheless!!
May I challenge you to give me a straight forward recommendation as to what setup YOU would use for:
Spinning lures. In the surf only
Light as possible to do keep the arms going for LONG sessions
Lures from bucktails to plugs and dropshot - 1.5 to 3 ounce (maybe 4?)
Need distance for the big ones on the back bank, max needed, with casting
And still with enough action in it for working all these lures
What you say? Am I asking for a pie in the sky, or not?

I do not want prices, only your ideal setup for above. I have 1 recommendation already, but want to make the right choice for the investment I intend making!
Thanks

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The best rod for spinning in that class is the DC Oval 10.6ft

with KR rod guides.Its a AMAZING rod and cast 1oz - 4oz

lures!!That will be my next Spinning Rod !

Both my Assassin Amia and Assassin Spin E are now rebuilded

by Tackle-Holic with the KR Rod guides.He's playing now for

3 weeks with my rods to get the right guide sizes and guide

spacings right. Maybe Tackle-holic can tell us more whats

he doing :)

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You beat me to it....
10'6" Oval DC with KR set up as follows:
20H; 10H, 8M, 8 to 9x KT8 running guides with a MN8 tip
Casts from .75 - 4oz
Light in the hand
Sensitive tip section
Great pulling power
Good value......

Guide train mentioned above allows you to easily throw heavy braid or mono leaders; 50lb in either material is no problem

Reel: 5000 size Shimano; Sustain would be best but if its too expensive go for the Stradic in a 5000. Next down in price would be the 4000 size Symetre. You loose some capacity but it releases line very well and feels smooth and powerful.

Unless you are planning to cast heaver braid, resist the temptation to use a heavier reel (6000 or 8000) they are MUCH bigger and heavier and are a real pain for all day use - I have an OLD Sustain 5000FB that is roughly the same size and weight (600g) of the new Sustain 8000FG its not great for all day spinning

Braid: 15-20lb Suffix 832 or similar, if you need tougher line and can sacrifice some distance (not a lot mind) stick with Fireline (latest version is improved I believe) in about 8kg (older lines will be marked 8lb, this is nonsense real breaking strain is over 8kg

The use of smaller reels with good drags allows us the placement of guides closer to the reel and and to use MORE guides.

Benefits
1 More power (brings the butt section into play)
2 More distance
3 More sensitivity (more contact points along the blank increases the lines vibration transmission)

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Carll wrote:
The best rod for spinning in that class is the DC Oval 10.6ft

with KR rod guides.Its a AMAZING rod and cast 1oz - 4oz

lures!!That will be my next Spinning Rod !

Both my Assassin Amia and Assassin Spin E are now rebuilded

by Tackle-Holic with the KR Rod guides.He's playing now for

3 weeks with my rods to get the right guide sizes and guide

spacings right. Maybe Tackle-holic can tell us more whats

he doing :)


So when we building one? ;)

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The Amia is a really nice blank
I believe I have improved its distance ability, sensitivity and power.
However I am not convinced of slow action blanks in general.
They FEEL easier to cast, but once you have adjusted your style for a faster tip actioned blank you will never look back.
You can use the softer tip to launch lighter lures and harness the power lower down to really climb under heavier lures.
Best of both. No pie in the sky.

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@ Tackle-holic .. I know that i'm going to beat you on this

one because you are busy customizing spinning rods! :dban:

@ newby@beachview,If I may ask what recommendations you had?

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Thx Carll and Tackle-holic!!
Very comprehensive reply T-h, helps me plenty with decision I have to make, much appreciated, you are star with all your knowledge!!
I have a Stadic 5000, so rod choice should not be to difficult, thanks again, it really helped!!

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Choice of blank?
Just out if interest, cannot force you to agree.....

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Carll, first recommendation was DC oval 10'6", and another recent 1 is Graphcast3 9'6". Latest Graph3 apparently 40T, but with Rs difference compared to previous version 30T? Also for me the Graph3 new blank felt heavier in the hand, compared to DC oval? But then again it's me, the newbie, trying to act educated in rods!
And yes, this analytical newbie, must still make the call!!
Would love to have taken each of these rods for a spin in the surf, on my Stradic5000, to really compare.
Thx guys!

Enigma
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I build both the Graphcast III and Oval DC (Switchblade)

As for old and new GC III, I spoke in person to the distributor when I bought my last 4 blanks....... I asked him what the difference is between the 2........ 5grams and the colour was the answer.

Tested the 2 (old and new test curve) The SAME.....

OTGman
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Has anyone tried building a 17ft rod using the kr or kw for braid? Everytime I read about continental style of fishing, what type of fishing does these rod fall under in Rsa? Has a 250m cast been done with line n sinker of any sort using an overhead cast?

Enigma
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17'rod in RSA is Obscure and not known. Currently longest R&S rods is 4.3m longer has to be custom manufactured.

We have few tournament casters and longest overhead cast that I have seen/heard of with fixed spool is 230m but also not with tournament casting legal line, much thinner.

OTGman
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Enigma wrote:
17'rod in RSA is Obscure and not known. Currently longest R&S rods is 4.3m longer has to be custom manufactured.

We have few tournament casters and longest overhead cast that I have seen/heard of with fixed spool is 230m but also not with tournament casting legal line, much thinner.


What I was refering to is based on any line, any sinker and fishable setup for eds. No fanciful pendulum, only confined space, overhead cast.


There are many 250m cast, PE0.8, 13-14ft but on sidecast. I will try dig out and show you. High chance the fish doesn't live at 250m if not someone would have experimented on it by now. I believe it can be achieve on a 17ft rod, overhead cast but the caster must cast like a terminator to begin with and bend the rod until the reel seat.
I tried 2 rod (4.05m vs 3.9m), both same weight, built by me and both multiplier and same model. Shimano claims same amount of carbon so it was a good comparison. 4.05m wins by 5-10m. That's why I asked. Strangely 2 similar mass of carbon creates different effect.

Enigma
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The 230m+ is with ultralight freshwater tackle.

Only ever heard of 206m with saltwater tackle and South African cast not overhead.

Seldom if ever do bait fishermen fish with tackle thinner than 0.40mm nylon or less than 50lbs braid (sometimes 30lbs)

The South African Surf Fisherman rather wades 40-80m and even further and cast 150m with heavy tackle than cast lighter tackle to 250m.

I have seen some top Surf Anglers get a full 130m cast in from where he can no longer stand in the water. I guess his total distance into the water (from the dry beach) was about 250-270m

Tackle-holic
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Carl,

Your Assassin Amia and 11' E Spin KR Concept Rods are on their way, should be with you by Friday for you to throw!

B

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Incidentally, I met and O.L.D school builder recently, (according to him) he built a 20' monster years ago.... 5' parallel butt to 15' tapered rod.
All glass.
Must have weighed a ton-and-a-bit....
20'? Thats 6.1m. Mein Gott in Himmel Man!
I know cubic inches win every time, but thats like a Bedford truck in a sprint race

Carll
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Tackle-holic wrote:
Carl,

Your Assassin Amia and 11' E Spin KR Concept Rods are on their way, should be with you by Friday for you to throw!

Hi thanks Tackle H. I can wait to cast them ! :)

Carll
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Enigma wrote:
I build both the Graphcast III and Oval DC (Switchblade)

As for old and new GC III, I spoke in person to the distributor when I bought my last 4 blanks....... I asked him what the difference is between the 2........ 5grams and the colour was the answer.

Tested the 2 (old and new test curve) The SAME.....


Craig whats the difference between the GCast II and the GCast III because the GCast rods are mentioned a lot in this post.I can see that they are very popular blanks ..
Just out of interest

Enigma
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GRAPHCAST I - 2 piece 8ft Ultimate light tackle spinning, popping, jigging as well as drop shotting lure weight: 10-40g line 4-8 kgs Tiger rod from hell! ...

GRAPHCAST II. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 30-62grams Line class: 6-10kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

GRAPHCAST III. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 60-125grams Line class: 8-10kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

GRAPHCAST IV. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 90-190grams Line class: 10-15kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

GRAPHCAST V. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 150-300grams Line class: 10-15+kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

http://www.cdrods.co.nz/product/16250/cd-rods-graphcast-2pc

Carll
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Enigma wrote:
GRAPHCAST I - 2 piece 8ft Ultimate light tackle spinning, popping, jigging as well as drop shotting lure weight: 10-40g line 4-8 kgs Tiger rod from hell! ...

GRAPHCAST II. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 30-62grams Line class: 6-10kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

GRAPHCAST III. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 60-125grams Line class: 8-10kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

GRAPHCAST IV. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 90-190grams Line class: 10-15kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

GRAPHCAST V. Ideal for Casting and spinning. 2 piece 9'6'' Lure weight: 150-300grams Line class: 10-15+kg Application: Casting/spinning/popping/drop shot

http://www.cdrods.co.nz/product/16250/cd-rods-graphcast-2pc


Hi thanks Craig but my next spinning rod would be DC Oval ! After you showed me the DC :first That's the Ultimate Spinning rod !!!

Enigma
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Joined: Mon Apr 27th, 2009
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The little 9'3" Switchblade that Brandon put together does everything that the GCII and III does and is fast gaining a very positive reputation. The CD blanks are still connoisseur blanks but being imported and reimported to SA become a bot pricey... but good value for money.

My little ovals have however proven themselves over and over and will capture the imagination of everyone who has a throw with them.....

Carll
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Joined: Mon Aug 18th, 2008
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A little Oval with a BIG Hart !

Carll
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After the post was made about the KR Concept, I did a lot of research on other forums about the KR Concept from Fuji and everything it entails. In other countries the KR Concept has long been used by Angler's that spin with surprisingly good results. Turning your Spinning rod into a Super Spinning rod.

I just want to make it clear that I am not a rod builder and I am not gaining any financial benefits by making this post, but I would like to share my experience with you. Spinning and DropShot fishing has become very popular over the last 4 years after anglers like Craig Thomassen, The Alcock Brothers and Barry Wareham made us very aware about Spinning and DropShot Angling.

In my opinion if you are a very passionate Spinning or DropShot Angler then the KR Concept is a must as it will place you in a whole different dimension.

I just want to thank Brandon,aka Tackle-Holic for all his effort and designing that he put into my Assassin Amia and Assassin Spin E . He worked on the rods for 3 weeks and he tested every single guid setup until he was satisfied that both the rods perform to the max.

Assassin Amia's(1oz-2oz) specs before and after. Just keep in mind that the Amia was NOT design to cast lure's under 1oz. For me the huge improvement in the lightest weight is significant. The Rod is now very more sensitive and has has lot of power in the butt section

Std Configuration (9 guides + tip)

17g Spoon average cast 53m
55g lead average cast 115m

KR Concept Configuration (11 guides + tip)
17g Spoon average cast 82m
55g Spoon average cast 125m

Last edited on Mon Jul 7th, 2014 12:19 am by Carll

Tackle-holic
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Carl,
I am chuffed you are a happy fisherman!!
Dead chuffed actually!
Another convert!!
KR unleashes unbelievable performance from blanks,
Lets hope (would not accept defeatif he wasn't) that Newbie's 10'6" is a success!!
B

newby@beachview
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Joined: Wed Mar 21st, 2012
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I am so excited about the 10'6" DC oval Tackle-holic is building me!! I chat to Brandon almost everyday, and he gives me constant feedback and sends me pics of progress (just to tease me yes)! Brandon is lucky that I'm 1000ks plus from him, otherwise I would have been in his workshop building the rod with him, so I think the distance is a maybe a good thing (for both of us)!
I have not seen the rod in true flesh yet (can't wait though), but just the service levels and professionalism shown by the man, tells me the rod is not going to be a disappointment!!
Accolades B, aka Tackle-holic, you are an excellent example of how the business (of building a custom rod) and service should be. Going the extra mile when this newbie hints for it!

Cheers
Michael:clap12:::woohoo::respekt:

Tackle-holic
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Thanks for the support!!
You will love the rod.
Awesome blank.
Awesome layout.

Tackle-holic
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Recently completed a 10'6" Oval DC with Titanium SIC KR Concept Guide train..
Really happy with performance.

Attachment: photo 1.JPG (Downloaded 618 times)

Tackle-holic
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Same rod

Attachment: photo 2.JPG (Downloaded 617 times)

Tackle-holic
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Looking down the reduction train:
1st 2 guides: KL20H; Kl12H

Attachment: photo 3.JPG (Downloaded 619 times)

Tackle-holic
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KR Conversion of 11' Shimano Vengeance...
Really transformed the rod.
Lighter.
MUCH faster recovery
Excellent casting distance

Attachment: photo 2.JPG (Downloaded 613 times)

Tackle-holic
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KT8 Runners

Attachment: image-6.jpeg (Downloaded 617 times)

Tackle-holic
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Transition guide 8M

Attachment: photo 4.JPG (Downloaded 615 times)

Tackle-holic
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10'6" Oval DC this time with Stainless Alconte Guides.
Stripping Guide: KL20H

Attachment: IMG_2296.jpg (Downloaded 617 times)

Tackle-holic
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Reel seat and top grips

Attachment: IMG_2293.jpg (Downloaded 617 times)

Tackle-holic
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Detail of label above top grip

Attachment: IMG_2294.jpg (Downloaded 616 times)

kaspaas
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Joined: Fri Jan 9th, 2009
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Best Catch: Kob 17 kg, Steenbras 13,5kg, Garrick 7 kg, Sandshark 30 ...
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Eish! I have now sat reading though this thread for about an hour, reading and re-reading posts to try and understand what the bloody hell you chaps are talking about. Now I have a splitting headache!!

A number of years ago I attended a two week Facilities Management training course in Dallas, Texas. I was probably the only non-technical student in the class and after a week of increased confusion of listening to the whole class spewing out technical jargon and acronyms for every single concept, I stopped the lecturer mid-sentence. I asked him to please repeat everything they had said the last week, but this time round to do it in plain English. Was it in South Africa I would have used the term "boere-English"!

With all due respect...you chaps are no different! I tried to understand the arguments and information you were exchanging but lost you within the first page! My teenage son would say that you are talking "Nerd". To call it "gibberish" as Craig called it in one of his posts, is an extreme understatement! LOL

OK, the reason why I embarked on this epic journey of wading through the reams of  technical names and "concepts"(?) as the term was used, was to understand (and learn) what the preferred guides should be for the various applications and what should not be used. In my younger days I frequently refurbished my old freshwater rods (bamboo and fiber glass). This included replacing guides (or "eyes" as we called it) and even reel seats. We had a choice of maybe two or three different makes and choice of guides was based solely on costs rather than performance. Hell, we didn't realise different placement, sizes or material made any difference. We caught our fish whatever the guides used!

Reading the DIY posts on Sealine and other fishing forums on the internet as well seeing what some of the rod building chaps are doing, made me realise that I again want to try my hand at it. This time, however I want to use all the new "stuff" available and this time I'm doing it for the art of it. Maybe the fact that I'm planning on retiring next year will give me more time for hobbies such as this and maybe the fact that (apart from fishing) my other great love is painting (mostly oil), have something to do with it, but I don't want to refurbish or build rods as a source of income. This extra hobby will most probably cost more than I will ever earn from it. Same as my paintings. If I sell one, great! But its not important. It is creating a special piece of "art" that is important. I see it in the same light as a beautifully crafted knife or firearm. What is more beautiful than a extremely well made knife or gun with beautiful custom engraving done on it? Yes, it is important that the equipment should be able to perform what it was manufactured for, but it must also be beautiful to the eye.

I know Craig has already pointed out the added time, weight and cost of decorative wrapping. Time and cost is not my problem. One should simply come up with innovative ways to still address the weight problem to maintain suitable standards.

But this brings me back again to the purpose of starting to read this thread in the first instance. What are the preferred guides to use for different applications and different blanks? Available in RSA of course... Is there a source of reference somewhere (here or elsewhere) that would use layman's English to answer these questions? Not using the technical "gibberish" as Craig so aptly described it! LOL

Damn...now I also went and wrote a whole essay!!

 


Last edited on Wed Nov 5th, 2014 02:07 pm by kaspaas

Enigma
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Joined: Mon Apr 27th, 2009
Location: Eldoraigne , South Africa
Posts: 12890
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Download the Anglers Resource Fuji Catalogue

I am uploading all the guides we sell onto my online shop - http://www.tacklesa.co.za

We sell

MNSG
MNAG
BMNAG
BLCAG
LCAG
BNOG
NOG
BKLAG
KLAG
BKTAG
KTAG
Africast Low Riders Blue/Gold/Silver/Charcoal/Black
AfriCast 3 leg Guides Blue/Charcoal/Gold/Silver
Webo Reel Seats
Fuji Reel Seats
Nylon Reel Seats
EVA
Heatshrink (Black/Blue/Red and Green)
Flexcoat
Some Cottons

I also have a dealer account with http://www.mudhole.com so the price you see on their site plus 20% (roughly is what I can supply non stock items) This saves you the flate shipping rate of $30 to SA

kaspaas
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Joined: Fri Jan 9th, 2009
Location: Melkbosstrand, South Africa
Posts: 2907
Equipment: Lots and lots.... and growing as we speak!
Best Catch: Kob 17 kg, Steenbras 13,5kg, Garrick 7 kg, Sandshark 30 ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: Melkbosstrand, Skeleton Coast Namibia, Flamingo Lodge Angola
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Thanks....now we getting somewhere! LOL

Ball now in my court, ne?

Tackle-holic
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Posts: 672
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I suppose it is...
If you want or need some help with a layout/design I am happy to help.
A well set up KR Concept layout will amaze you.
Sensitive
Powerful
Quiet
Long-casting

Last edited on Sun Nov 9th, 2014 09:38 am by Tackle-holic

kaspaas
Sealiner


Joined: Fri Jan 9th, 2009
Location: Melkbosstrand, South Africa
Posts: 2907
Equipment: Lots and lots.... and growing as we speak!
Best Catch: Kob 17 kg, Steenbras 13,5kg, Garrick 7 kg, Sandshark 30 ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: Melkbosstrand, Skeleton Coast Namibia, Flamingo Lodge Angola
Boat: None, I cast far enough from the beach.
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Guys.....After downloading and basically reading everything I could find on the various web sites I have come to the conclusion that one can spend almost an infinite amount on the "trimmings" on a custom rod, with every blank, reel seat, guides and obviously spacing of such guides, providing some benefit. If one had the time, opportunity and finances one could in fact through experimentation get to certain preferred results. This is quite clear from some of the more experienced chaps' posts on this thread.
I don't have neither time or money to go through this process, although it sounds damn facinating and I probably would have loved doing it.

So my challenge is as follows:
I have asked Chuck to build me a scratch rod with a Purglas 300/2 blank. I have been thinking of pairing it with a Penn Squall 15 but someone expressed the opinion that the handle might be less than sturdy??? So maybe a SL 20? Anyway, it will be a reel of this size. And I am considering going for braid for max sensitivity.
So, which guides would you suggest? It would obviously be a bit silly to spend more on the guides than the rest of the rod together, but custom building using low end guides would be just as stupid...

Tackle-holic, you made mention of the KR concepts. I read up about it and have heard only good things about it. But is it the best option for my application?

Last edited on Mon Nov 24th, 2014 11:57 pm by kaspaas

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Kaspaas.

As an example, the Big Blue 100 Purglas ofshore blank costs R360, the fully built rod which has landed many Grander (1000lbs+ Marlin) costs R4800

A rod is not merely the blank it is the sum total of all it's parts.

Fishing NLG or NOG Guides with Braid will not result in the braid cuting the guides but the braid dulling the guide surface which leads to the Guide "SANDING" the braid and drastically shortening it's life span.

KR Concept is available for Spinning and Multiplier so I would recommend at least K series (skip to 7min 30) on this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJiVBIC3Q0

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Kaspaas,

I concur with Engima and the damage cheaper guides cause to braid as well as a build being more than just a sum of parts

K series are the specified guides for KR Concept for bait casting set ups.
I have drawn up some beefier / modified KR bait casting setups to suit conventional multipliers (if you assume "bait casting" to be a setup for much lighter applications)

Off the top of my head, and it would depend on your final choice of braid main line and leader, I would start with a KW16 or KW20 dropping quickly to a KW10 which you then use all the way to the tip. You COULD opt for single foot KT10's after 2-3 KW10's

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has anyone perhaps turned the front guide the other way around to see if it helps with casting or even distance

if so can it be done with any guide or only with some?

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William has an 11'2-5oz KR Concept DC for testing down in Cape Town

Built 25-16-12 then 10 through to the tip. Built for casting plugs on Trini 20A with 18kg Maxima without leader (Rooikrantz Tail)

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K Series cannot be reversed, would create monumental tangles.
If you want to use a reversed 1st guide set up, try LC20 as a stripper.
You can then build a rod that will cast multipliers and spinning reels (depending on what spinning reel you use and how far the LC20 is placed from the reel seat)

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thanks tackle.. hows that for interesting a casting and spinning rod in one :cool:

awesome thread btw and very informative ::slr::

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I have built a lot of dual purpose rods and converted a lot of conventional rods to dual purpose and Cape Town is one of the areas with the most.

Wildest rod we did like that was Dynamite's Exteneded 15'Pentagon Heavy..... Throws Trini 30A with 1.6mm windon and Spheros 20000SW with 180lbs JDB Braid leader or 1mm Mono leader on the same rod.... No problem and with both setups 140m+ is no problem for him.

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never heard of dual purpose rods before till now and never thought it possible

was always under the impression the guide is on the spine of the rod and turning the rod around and putting pressure against this part not recommended (not by anyone) just how i looked at it without taking it any further

_seal1_

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Sorry, I think you misunderstood me:
The LC20 was originally designed for use with a fixed spool to get rid of coils thrown by the reel.
It is however excellent for use as a stripping guide for multipliers.
You would not have guides on both sides of the blank.

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no probs.. :thankie;)::slr::

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Flippy has made me think.... I was under the impression that the spine of the rod was on different sides depending on whether it was built as a casting rod or spinning (with "coffee grinder"). There is also a definite difference in placement of the guides. How do you overcome these issues when you build it as dual-purpose rod?

With regards to the suggested guides for my 300/2 scratch rod project... I have taken note of both -aholic and Craig's suggestions and it makes sense. I haven't been able to watch that you tube clip yet, Craig but will definitely do. I also like the suggestion of using the KW and KT combination. Will nevertheless also chat to Chuck about it when we get to actually building the rod.

What Top would I use with such a set-up? Maybe the MN Style (BMNAT)?? Size??

By the way, my main target species would be Galjoen, so it is going to be rocky areas. Not too heavy braid and leader of max ,50mm. Mission is to get as light as possible, yet not be concerned about something more ferocious than a Gallie taking the bait! LOL

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One would build on either side depending on the type of reel to be used.

The variance on actual casting distance for an equal power cast for a fishing type of cast would e a possible 1-3m on 100m.

The most important thing of spine location on a blank when building is the make sure it is on a spine and not 90 degrees to a spine. Being 90degrees off results in the blank twisting under load ie casting or pulling a fish and the most evident result is continued skew casts with that rod.

A very large portion of factory rods are never built on a spine, if you have worked out how to find the spine go test your Purglas or older model off the shelf rods and see how many of the mid to low price range rods are built anywhere near to the spine of the rod.

Lately it seems factories are paying some attention to the spine of a rod. High end rods almost always on the spine.

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All NGC and KR layouts use MN frame tips

The pure grinder casting rod can have fewer guides on for distance for pulling it needs more guides on.

The true KR uses as many guides as possible to ensure the line tracks the blank so the guide layout works perfectly with either Fixed Spool or Multiplier setup

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Do you think there will be a noticeable difference between building spine up or down?

Given that some blanks have more than one spine the assumption is you bud on or at 180 degrees to the dominant one?

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Sorry did not see your earlier post.

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Enigma,

Just to chew the fat,what are your views on Acid Wraps?

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Tackle-holic wrote:
Enigma,

Just to chew the fat,what are your views on Acid Wraps?


Love them but for trolling and Jigging not casting

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Seen one or two casting set ups, not sure about the wisdom of it though..

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Read a comment on an American angling forum, that they reckon an acid wrapped rod "plays" a fish better than conventional rod. Same commentators did not experience any major difference in casting.
Somehow I still battle to get my mind around a rod done this way. Seems so "wrong"!! He he

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Hi Brandon

I checked out your company's website. Wow, you sure pushed the boundaries of minimalistic web design! Or did it just not load fully when I visited it?
No clutter! I like! LOL

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Not the most intuitive concept, but you need to click on the little images at the top of the page that then bring more options that you then need to click on again... and wait for the images to load..

Attachment: Logik screen capture.jpg (Downloaded 416 times)

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I have an interesting scenario- I have a R1000 custom rod and a R150 rod. One outcast the other with the same weight and fairly similar braid. same reel size.

The custom rod still cast very far considering length, but feels very "choked". The cheapy feels less choked and cast even further?

I was casting a 3/4once sinker. Is it a that the sinker was more suited to the cheapy?

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Rods of same length and cast rating?
Even if they are, the blank action can make a difference depending on how you cast.
Best comparison is a before and after of the same rod or two alternative layouts built on the same blank.
The custom could be over-choked, but difficult to say without measurements and specific guides and braid set up

Same reel size or EXACTLY same reel? Geometry of the reel does make a difference - not to say that a layout for a particular reel will not work with another, its just perhaps not 100% optimised.

B

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What is the loss of distance for a rod that is over choked? 20%?

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Could not put a figure on it. Depends in the degree.
I have horribly overchoked some if my own prototypes, but even then the distance loss was actually small.
Might be a stripping guide that is too low to blank more than too close or too small.
What guide set up is it that you believe is over choked?

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I will ask enigma- there could be a lot of factors. I can feel it in my hand. The one cast and the feel is smooth and light versus sticky and slow.

Also keeping in mind that it is not meant to be a massive casting rod.
What is interesting that the cheaper rod is meant for bass fishing, so that would be more suited to cast lighter line easier.

I think it could also be the specific braid i am using. And also how good the braid was put on the reel.

As you say overchocking a rod should reasonably only make a 5% difference.

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kopstamp wrote:
I have an interesting scenario- I have a R1000 custom rod and a R150 rod. One outcast the other with the same weight and fairly similar braid. same reel size.

The custom rod still cast very far considering length, but feels very "choked". The cheapy feels less choked and cast even further?

I was casting a 3/4once sinker. Is it a that the sinker was more suited to the cheapy?


There are to many variables here Wessel

Take the same reel on the R150 rod that felt unchoked and put it on the custom and then cast and measure again. Using exactly the same weight.

Now the only variable is the rod and you can make a fair comparison and if the Custom you are referring to is the Orange one then it will out perform although it's prefence would be a 1.5oz

Your initial question let there be a variable of
Braid diameter and slickness
Line Lay
Spooling
Capacity and filling.

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Hi craig-

Very interesting feeling the choked feeling. Can one feel it?
The freer rod maxes at 50-60m. Casted it with a 3pnce and bait and it went very well. Was the first time i felt the choked feeling. But line lay, weight all plays the factor!

Can choking be a factor at a smaller weight and not at a heavier weight?

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Fuji have released new double foot KR Concept Stripping guides, useful for heavier spinning and heavy surf rods.

Called RV (specifically RV-H)
Have a look at the thread started called "new Surf Guides from Fuji"in the rod building section.
These sorts of layouts make a big difference for distance, sensitivity and power, especially for the typical 8-11' rods used for lure throwing in the surf and off the rocks.

Attachment: Graphic RV-H, LC, MN.jpg (Downloaded 698 times)

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Must I return my rod for an upgrade or send a new blank? ;)

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Bwahaha!
Your Rod is fine the way it is!!

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ok...so i read all 13 pages! i still understand JACK..what i do get is that i am a idiot for still using Flip guides on my EVO? HUH??

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No the Flip helps to pack it into small diameter tubes. But that one you broke in the cast should have been a warning light

It is a standard Chinese frame and ring with the remainder of the rod having high end Japanese materials.

The flip works well but a #40 JL K-Series guide (Low Frame) would have been better and a #20 LC even better still.

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Agree 100% about the Low Riders
Whaler you are not an idiot.
Perhaps convinced by wide spread use, yes, but no idiot.
I personally cannot understand the logic of the flip guide in front of a K series layout - tangle free guides AFTER the most tangle-prone guide known...
Really?
Low Rider (LC20) has got to be the best performing stripping guide (to date) for big surf rods.
KR Concept (single foot) are the bee's knees for shorter lighter sticks, say anything up to 3oz (or perhaps 4oz at a push) rating with braid up to 30lb PE2.
After that I go to Low Riders.
Yes, I will build with KW guides and have done so in the past; have a Purglas 300/3 with a proper NGC layout using KW30/25/20/16/10 KT10/KT10/KT10/KT10 that casts beautifully.
As well as a Low Rider or KR layout?
Not in my opinion.
I am super keen not try the new RV-H's out but cost is prohibitive, for now at least.
Any rod over 12' or over 4oz?
Low Riders.
Or at least a Low Rider reduction train with KW's or KT's to the tip, if I want a lighter option.

Last edited on Mon Apr 20th, 2015 09:26 pm by Tackle-holic

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Enigma wrote:
No the Flip helps to pack it into small diameter tubes. But that one you broke in the cast should have been a warning light

It is a standard Chinese frame and ring with the remainder of the rod having high end Japanese materials.

The flip works well but a #40 JL K-Series guide (Low Frame) would have been better and a #20 LC even better still.


ok, so what you are saying is i only have to replace the flip guide and the rest are good? i cast .50 -.65mm braid leaders? witch guide do you recon? to ad i have never had a wind knot ? dont know what it means! so i would like to believe i will get a few extra yards with the "new" guide? right? without sounding too cheaky i throw the EVO a long way, so 5 yards extra would be awesome?

Last edited on Tue Apr 21st, 2015 11:04 pm by Whaler

Tackle-holic
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I recently designed a layout for an American angler based in new Jersey for a Century Slingshot 9'6" 0.75-3oz blank.
He uses a Van Staal VS150 modified with the foot from a VS200 to move the reel further away from the rod.
Line used in the test was Spiderwire UltraCast Invisibraid dia 0.34mm actual breaking strain 50lb.

Hope the link below works...

https://youtu.be/lqMETo3h554


https://vimeo.com/128084279

Enigma
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@Tackle-holic now you are being overly modest.

Just because South African Anglers don't trust new Tech and you have done so many layout and designs for me and USA short and long rod casters....

Your research, input and CAD design and layout of guides saves us endless time and frustration.

No worries mate, the SA Anglers will discover this in another 10-20 years and understand what it's about (and someone will claim it as a RSA first) I see Shimano and Daiwa have started employing the NGC and in some Cases KR on a lot of the new rods seen on TV shows ie the Terez

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Thanks Craig!

Haakies
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I can attest to the quality of these guidetrain designs that TH is putting together. I have a few land based rods of varying makes and strengths and have a number that have been customed on blanks such as CTS, Blackhole, Composite Developments and Phenix. Some cast like rockets and others have issues. These have been caused by me knowing just enough to get myself into trouble. I have a mixture of standard guides, low riders and K series on the various rods. I have a Graphcast 4 that is being rebuilt and have now have a guidetrain design by TH. I am very interested to see how it will turn out.

It must be said that I am analytical by nature and as such I lean towards things that have science as the base.

Given the way that line comes off os a spinning reel there is a lot more emphasis on smooth line flow than a rod built for a multiplier.I have been using spinning rods for all of my land based spinning for the the last 7 years and the one thing that I have learnt is that if you are going to make really get the advantages that spinning outfits offer you have to ensure that the rod is built well.

I promise to give honest feedback once this build is complete. I will be using the KR concept guides in an attempt to reduce the overall weight of the rod and ensure that the line follows the blank well. It is important as the GC 4 has a fairly light tip and this then strengthens it quite a lot.

Kind regards
Anton

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Haakies I have two rods built by TH, an Amia and a DC Oval. They are in a league of their own. You won't be disappointed with the work Brandon delivers.

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i have a Assassin S6 with 2 tips and 2 mid sections, i sent the one lot to Mark Norval and he fitted K series guides for me, took it for a test on Sunday and i must admit there is a marked difference between the two! i used the same reel and the same sinker and even the same base section! so basically the guides are the only difference!so on ward and upwards, now for me to get used to the low rider idea...lol

xtc
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For a while I have been chatting to tackle-holic - the rods I currently use for estuary lure fishing are a tenryu injection 7.3, a Armageddon 6.6, daiwa specialist bream 7.2 and a century hpr 7.3. The hpr has a wide casting weight range of 3.5 to 25g. All have k series guides as standard.

Tackle - holic (TH) was going to have a look at revamping one or two for me. In the meantime he built and sent me down a machine of a rod that I have been using for the past month or so. TH will hopefully add some detail and info re the blank and the guide system used.

The rod is 2 piece and 7ft. It comfortably throws lures in the range of 7 - 40g. For rivers like swartkops, gamtoos, sundays etc this is perfect. One can throw weightless plastics, small bucktails, z claws plus when you need it you can throw something bigger and heavier with confidence. A lot of standard mh rods suitable for all day casting that I have used have an upper limit of around 25g. There just are those days when being able to heave out something bigger will be a bonus.

One thing for sure is it sure as hell belts a lure out properly - a one ounce predator type plug throws out of sight. It works bucktails nicely and it handles walking z claws exactly the way I want it to. It will be right at home throwing 1.5 ounce plugs and bucktails for leerie at the harbour wall to.

Things are changing but over the past few years the rod ranges available locally have been fairly limited, particularly if you wanted something better guide wise. I ended up importing. I have been wary of going the custom route mainly because of concerns re guides and guide spacing which Im convinced will make or break a build.

TH will hopefully also add some more detail re the improvements he found during testing re the standard guides vs what he used. I suspect a lot of rods will be given new life and perform spectacularly well if purposefully rebuilt.

TH - thanks dude - the build quality is great and the end product is an absolute pleasure to use. all in all an awesome estuary lure fishing rod that will handle the standard estuary fare plus the 10kg+ brutes that show face from time to time. I really like that the rod handles the normal river lure casting weights nicely with the added bonus of being able to whip out the bigger lures from time to time. The efforts of a craftsman in ensuring that the rod, the guides, the reel all balance and work perfectly together shine brightly through on the rod you sent my way.

Knowing for sure that the custom route is a good one has my mind buzzing with plans - from re doing some of my existing rods to some complete new builds. If anyone in the PE, EL or Transkei areas would like a throw give me a shout and we can make a plan. TH I am not the best rod photographer to show your skills, if you have a few pics and you read this, would you mind posting a few

Enigma
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XTC, Brandon would be more than ecstatic if you posted them here. It'll keep the thread alive and in discussion

Just converted a Casting Exage 100 to a Spinning KR Layout and it's a completely different rod. Stable and fluent in the cast and 32m improvement on casting a 2 oz Bullet Spoon.

Will put some of these pics up when I have finished the epoxy work.

xtc
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.

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xtc
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.

Attachment: 20150620_145109a.jpg (Downloaded 563 times)

xtc
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.

Attachment: 20150620_144957a.jpg (Downloaded 562 times)

xtc
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Joined: Fri May 28th, 2010
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A few weeks back I sent 4 more rods tackle-holics way

a cumara that I had broken the tip off - TH managed to save it - I have a feeling its going to be brilliant for top waters like the z claw as well as a great snapper rod

A quantum that my girl friend likes - so she got some brand new guides - kr concept -

A Berkley 9ft - it had one broken guide - redone completely - kr concept

My 6ft6 Armageddon - a fantastic rod as it was - also redone with kr concept - the sic guides that were on here went to the cumara

TH must have worked some overtime and went out of his way to get these done and back to me. I'd promised the 9ft to steve who is in SA for a 3 week visit. This one went straight to Steve so I haven't seein it yet

The girlfriend is over the moon with the way her quantum looks. The Armageddon also looks and feels fantastic - TH I think has turned a great rod into something even better

Off tomorrow for a quick 3 day Transkei trip and really looking forward to giving the rods a good go. Havent had an opportunity to take pics but will do next week and post together with some more feedback on the rods

TH's enthusiasm for the rods he takes on is infectious - you get constant feedback as the build progresses

TH - thanks dude - appreciated - tired of waggling the rods in the lounge and looking forward to the trip tomorrow - will give you a shout over the weekend

Tackle-holic
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Long, time since I have posted regarding this topic...
Have built a couple of prototype / test rods using the new-ish RV's with titanium frames and Torzite rings.
Pretty damn impressed.
Whilst there is an element of pi**sing contest using the latest rings, they are super smooth, unbelievable quiet and, yes they DO add distance and sensitivity as well as the pleasure of using really high quality equipment.
Blank in the photos is a Turbulence 3.35m 1-3oz.
Casts beautifully within its range; easily capable of throwing 3/4oz spoons and plugs, its "happy place" starts with the standard of 1.5oz / 45g.
BUT it is easily capable of moering 2.75oz a long, long way.
Great with soft plastics on jig heads or even genuine drop-shot rigs with 1.5oz sinkers and 7" plastics....
One of the images shows a SV40 against a RV25 - just for reference.




Attachment: IMG_4257.jpeg (Downloaded 333 times)

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next one

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next

Attachment: IMG_4241.jpeg (Downloaded 332 times)

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next

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nog..

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verder...

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"grip" below reel seat.

Attachment: IMG_4260.jpeg (Downloaded 331 times)

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Love the RV's and even put the layout down through KW12M into KW12's on a BIG GRINDER rods....

Can't repeat the owners comment after his first cast with the rod but it was all full of positive Superlatives

Carll
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Joined: Mon Aug 18th, 2008
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For a while I have been chatting to tackle-holic - Convert my Assassin SierraXH to KR Concept guide system

Tackle-holic converted both my Assassin Amia and Spin to the KR Concept guide system. There was a huge increase in performance after the conversion.I can't wait to get my Sierra back to try it out with the new KR guides.

Maybe TH can give more information on my Sierra's new conversion.

Last edited on Sun Nov 6th, 2016 04:05 pm by Carll

Enigma
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You should have bitten the bullet and put an RV stripper on going into KR....... Don't know how he hasn't convinced you to go that way, he and I have done that with our rods and it takes the KR performance up another notch.

CharlesF
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Carll wrote:
For a while I have been chatting to tackle-holic - Convert my Assassin SierraXH to KR Concept guide system

Tackle-holic converted both my Assassin amia and spin to the KR Concept guide system. There was a huge increase in performance after the conversion. can't wait to get my Sierra back to try it out with the new KR guides.

Maybe TH can give more information on my Sierra's new conversion.


Would love to see some pics! Come now Brandon post some teasers!

Tackle-holic
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bit late for teaser shots as the rod was finished on Friday evening...
Couple of photos:

Attachment: IMG_3238.jpeg (Downloaded 247 times)

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Next...

Attachment: IMG_3239.jpeg (Downloaded 247 times)

Tackle-holic
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Another:

Attachment: IMG_3241.jpeg (Downloaded 246 times)

Tackle-holic
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Last one.

Attachment: IMG_3243.jpeg (Downloaded 247 times)

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Casts beautifully.
Quiet.
Far.

tackle whore
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need a guide set for converting a Shim Exage 110 rod into a spinning set up please . reel is a stella 8000 with 50lb braide .

Tackle-holic
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Reduction: RV25 RV16 KW12M KW10M
Running Guides: 6x KW10 or KW8 (if you aren't scared of small guides) I would use the 8's or even 7's, but I know I am pushing it with the last suggestion.....

Last edited on Mon Nov 7th, 2016 01:00 am by Tackle-holic

Carll
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Tackle-holic wrote:
bit late for teaser shots as the rod was finished on Friday evening...
Couple of photos:

Thank you Brandon - the build quality is great as always and the end product !

grootvis
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Joined: Sat Jul 12th, 2008
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Tackle-holic wrote:
Reduction: RV25 RV16 KW12M KW10M
Running Guides: 6x KW10 or KW8 (if you aren't scared of small guides) I would use the 8's or even 7's, but I know I am pushing it with the last suggestion.....


Being a 110H. 8000 size reel. Is going to be used for either plugging or heavier gear. Dont you think KW 10 would be better instead of 8 for the leader knots? Thats if you have the leader running through the guides.

Tackle-holic
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I always run full length leaders ie knot is on spool with 3-5 turns of line.

Will depend on what leader you are using..

I did say either KW10's or 8's. I understand that a lot of guys are nervous of smaller guides, sometimes with good reason.

Also, it can be expensive to buy both and try them out and see which you prefer.

What leader type do you cast? Mono or braid?
BS and dia?

Last edited on Tue Nov 8th, 2016 08:53 am by Tackle-holic

grootvis
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Morning Brandon

I actually missed the KW10 part completel....too many hours in the sun for me.

Regardless, in particular wrt to the Exage rod. It doesn't have a quick recovery and a rather bouncy tip. My thought was the smaller guides being closer to the rod might have a bit more effect on the line when casting.
I would love to go down to 8s but my leader is a bit thick. I use both. Mono and braid. Currently only braid. 130#. Fg. If i was in the cape. I wouldnt hesitate to use smaller guides because then i wouldnt use a leader. Im with you on that score about using smaller guides. Definitely go the smallest you can do.:)

Btw. Im using a multiplier. Will the tip bounce be that much of an effect with a grinder....probably not.

Last edited on Tue Nov 8th, 2016 10:02 am by grootvis

Tackle-holic
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No prob.
Two separate questions; my RV25/16, KW12M, KW10M was aimed at Tackle Whore for use with a Stella 8000.
RV25 not required for multiplier use
Would need to experiment, but if you want to try RV's would have a look at RV20 KW12M KW10 and then 10's to the tip, or even RV16 to KW10M to KW10's....
Smaller lighter guides reduce tip bounce, it makes no difference if its with a multiplier or a grinder.
Tip bounce is tip bounce (also called overshoot in British rod building circles).
Tape a 1/4oz sinker to a bare blank and swish it up and down, then try it without the sinker taped on.
Its an extreme, exaggerated example, but you will see what I mean.

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Excellent thread, this has given me a greater understanding of rod dynamics and the finesse involved with fitting the correct guides.

Thanks TH and Enigma for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

What costs are involved utilising Sic inserts vs torzite?

Last edited on Wed Nov 9th, 2016 10:31 am by Psy

grootvis
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This is a good thread. Tons to learn. I have another question,

KR is "rapid choke" ....this makes sense to me for a grinder layout. Is it still "rapid choke" on a multiplier rod?

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There is are two official setups KR for baitcasters:
KW10 to KW5.5 (x2) to KB's to KT's
RV6 to KW5 to KB's to KT's
Remember these are set up around small low profile reels, with level winds.
The concept can be scaled up for heavier multiplier use.
The point being that you can use smaller dia guides than the last 40 years have taught us.

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Wind on leaders and braid leaders has made it easier to go to smaller guides seeing that your knot size has decreased by using one of these mentioned

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Arno Nel wrote:
Wind on leaders and braid leaders has made it easier to go to smaller guides seeing that your knot size has decreased by using one of these mentioned

This is the key. Smaller knots. Smaller guides. Ive thrown 100lbs braid (not sure the equivalent to mono but its thick) with a 1mm flouro leader with absolutely no problems with Size 10 kw. I dont actually see a need for anything larger on our surf rods anymore.

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My work is done.
He has seen the light through the very small tunnel formed by size 10 guides.

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Your work is not done yet.....lol!:)

Dont know if you remember, a few years back, i built a surf rod and used a LC to KW 8? Even the 8s were in fact the best suited to the rod and in my posts the feedback was about the difference this made to the rod from original to small running guides......major difference! Any knot more than 3mm is the wrong knot to be using....:)

Thanks Brandon and Craig for valuable input. Im building my first grinder rod.....its going to be fun.

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I do remember.
Grinders are useful tools.

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Oh man ! I got my Assassin Sierra back from Fishatic "Brandon" today with Fuji KR concept guides fitted. It looks good, it feels good ! Thanks Brandon - the build quality is great as always and I know the end product is an absolute pleasure to use.Tomorrow morning is testing time !

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Good afternoon guys, i have found this topic very interesting. i am a bit of a novice at building rods, but am currently building a spinning rod on a graphcast2 blank. i would appreciate some advice on what size kr guides to use and what spacing i should use. i will use a stradic 5000 on the rod. I thought meybe a double foot guide to start for extra strength, then single foot.Let me know what you think. Thank you

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KL25H - KL12H - KL8M - KL7L - 4 x KT7 with MN6 Tip

CD 2 is a light rod.

If you're rough enough to bend the KL25H you'll probably be breaking the Blank.;)

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Add a KT7 perhaps two.
KL25H is plenty strong.

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Thank you for the quick response guys. Any idea where i can order some of these guides from.

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You already enquired with me in December. So you can still get from CDS or you can order your own from http://Www.mudhole.com just Remember to factor in VAT, FedEx, forwarding and clearance to the USD prices on the website.

You be safe for a small order like this take the USD price x Rand exchange x 1.55

Last edited on Wed Jan 4th, 2017 10:13 am by Enigma

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Thanks Enigma. i would prefer to get a set from you if possible. If you could please pm me an invoice with bank details for payment. I'll go for your recomended set. Thanks again for your help.

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Please share your build with us.....good luck and good choice. I just built a grinder rod myself with that guide set up....i like those guides and like the above said they are very strong...i was pleasantly surprised at the quality of those guides.

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Thanks grootvis will keep you posted.Craig i sent you a mail earlier hope you got it.

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I did but my PC short circuited today so I'm offline for invoicing etc till it's all up and running again

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So its been over a year and more since the RV hit the market.

Correct me if Im wrong, but it was said that usually the stainless Alconite follows a year later.

When is the RV in stainless hitting the market?

Second question, the RV is designed reversed, so if you fit 2 they will both be fitted( reverse) due to the sloping guide ring?

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Who knows....
Could be next week or next year...
Re two guides being reversed yes this is correct.
Typically R25/RV16 for fixed spool use
If you use the RV20 as a stripper, you would follow with a KW12M (higher than normal KW guide) and not a RV16

Fuji have expanded the RV guides:
RV30 and RV40 in the same heights as the low framed KW30 and KW40
And LRV (low I assume) in 12 10 8 7 & 6.
RV top to bottom?

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OMG must this be so complicated.
This concept that concept.
And when I read all the posts, I still don't understand.
And still don't know what to the best concept is.
Angling is becoming or IS a science, not just a hobby or sport. The problem that I have there are too many scientists and too little anglers. Each scientist has an advertise his own formulas. There is no single answer to a question. I joined this form to learn, to improve my knowledge base, and to become a proficient, responsable angler. I think I failed this course.

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LOL..Grootvis, enigma, and tackle holic all build rods for a living, leave it up to them.You don't have to understand it, but when you cast with a rod that is setup perfectly, by the pros, you will understand..
_seal1_
They have been envolved in the developement of off the shelf rods too that have the guides setup like this, when it comes to smooth casting, distance and lack of windknots it makes a significant difference. I even light spin on a multiplier on a grinder rod setup with eyes like this, casts beautifully..A complete joy to cast..

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Dr halibut hoffman wrote:
LOL..Grootvis, enigma, and tackle holic all build rods for a living, leave it up to them.You don't have to understand it, but when you cast with a rod that is setup perfectly, by the pros, you will understand..
_seal1_
They have been envolved in the developement of off the shelf rods too that have the guides setup like this, when it comes to smooth casting, distance and lack of windknots it makes a significant difference. I even light spin on a multiplier on a grinder rod setup with eyes like this, casts beautifully..A complete joy to cast..


Hi Doc, yes it is true, but what do I do I I want to change my guides on a older 13"surf rod for a perfect grinder and braid setup????????

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Get hold of them and send it in!