SEALINE - South African Angling and Boating Community Home 
Home Recent Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register


 Moderated by: Enigma, Emperor Page:    1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  Next Page Last Page  
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
Fuji KR Concept  Rating:  Rating
 
AuthorPost
 Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2014 06:01 pm
  PM Quote Reply
1st Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Has anyone out there done some research and / or built a SURF rod using Fuji's KR Concept Guides (NOT New Guide Concept)?

Attachment: 6819E633-AE2E-4C47-B6AE-217B31BF857C-844-0000023479F14A18-1.jpg (Downloaded 2139 times)

Last edited on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 10:08 pm by Tackle-holic

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Mon Mar 17th, 2014 11:52 pm
  PM Quote Reply
2nd Post
OTGman
Member


Joined: Sun Jun 16th, 2013
Location: Japan, Japan
Posts: 156
Equipment: Everything
Best Catch: All fish
Favorite Fishing Spot: I don't fish
Boat: No boat
Club: 
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
New guide concept is a concept with choking mechanism and same running guides.

Cone of flight concept is a concept with no choking mechanism, you will not see the same size used twice.

There is a 3rd 1 called modified NGC or modified COF, 2 choking exists and you've different running guides. Fuji classify this as NGC in their catalogue, but the older rodbuilding forums calls it otherwise.

COF best for mono. The other 2 is more for braid, if use it on mono it melts at the stripper guide or the breaking strain of mainline exceeds and snaps.

On the same reel, same 14ft rod the concept looks something like this.

1. 16-16-20-25-30-40 or 50

2. 12-10-10-10-16-20-30H

3. 8-8-8-10-10-12-16-20-30H where 16 is the choking guide, 8/10/12 behave as running guide but is shrinking the line even further.

COF is the oldest and compatible with both fixed spool and multiplier. Century fishing rods are factory built with this. NGC came about due to the need to reduce tip weight and has sinced evolved. Your setup is a K-series NGC concept.

From Fuji catalogue:

Attachment: NGC.jpg (Downloaded 2125 times)

Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 12:00 am by OTGman

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 11:10 am
  PM Quote Reply
3rd Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
in my opinion, all NGC layouts should be modified or tailored to match the blank's performance and intended use. Modified COF is, to me, contradictory, you are creating a blank-specific (Modified) NGC layout. COF is COF - large guide stepped down one at a time to the smallest then the tip.
Cannot see how NGC, if set up for mono, is not suitable, granted a braid-specific layout will probably not be the best option for mono, but if you design the layout for mono in the first place.....
I have been doing some experiments with KR Concept layouts on rods ranging from small 7' / 1oz up to 10'6" / 2-5oz. The results have been very pleasing. I think there is a definite application for shore-game rods.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 11:38 am
  PM Quote Reply
4th Post
Enigma
Moderator


Joined: Mon Apr 27th, 2009
Location: Eldoraigne , South Africa
Posts: 12868
Equipment: Fishing Tackle and Lot's of IT
Best Catch: Anything with fins - from a 15gr 3 spot Barb ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: RSA
Boat: Na
Club: Northern Swerwers
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
My Gallery: 
One of the best concepts for Inshore or spinning setups for braid application although light nylons really work well on them.

I have found that using the concept, more of the rod is used but component weight is kept down and this helps with progressively loading the rod in the cast, increases the hook setting ability of the rod as well as the lifting power of the rod.

What I have found using this, especially if planned well for the reel being used is that casting performance of some off the shelf rods we have spruced up we have increased casting range (using exact same reel, line and lure) but up to an beyond 25%

The Microwave guide system uses the exact same concept but with the added Mini (center guide on the Choke guide).....

Have any of you tried using a very small K series H instead of the microwave guide to choke the coils?

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 02:00 pm
  PM Quote Reply
5th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
I have a KL8H in my stash, will tape it to a smallish blank and compare. Might need to move it further up the blank which COULD lose some blank power...

It does work nicely as an intermediate guide between the size 16H and size 7M

Am also going to try a slightly tighter reduction train of 20-10-7 with size 7 KT runners (tried 25-12-8 recently with KT8 runners that does work)

Thinking of the LC20 vs KL20H and have compared the LC20 height of 45.5 to that of the KL20H at 50.3mm....pretty close with the height advantage in the KLH's court.

The Microwave "concept" is nothing new; I have found some quite old images of double guide set ups (size 6 just in from of a size 16 or 20. From my research the Microwave stripper is a 16/6 set up; KLH20 to KLH10 is pretty close but offers much better "security" in passing knots...

Have comfortable passed 25lb braid to 50lb braid knots (Bob Sands/Slim Beauty) through the 25-12-8 set up, cannot see how if I can pass these knots through LC2016-12-10-8 they won't pass through KLH 20-10-7.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 02:02 pm
  PM Quote Reply
6th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Also:
Extracting more power from the blank does not only translate into lifting/hooksetting power, it applies to casting power too.
Apply more power to your sinker or lure and it should cast further )or the same distance with less effort)

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 02:09 pm
  PM Quote Reply
7th Post
Enigma
Moderator


Joined: Mon Apr 27th, 2009
Location: Eldoraigne , South Africa
Posts: 12868
Equipment: Fishing Tackle and Lot's of IT
Best Catch: Anything with fins - from a 15gr 3 spot Barb ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: RSA
Boat: Na
Club: Northern Swerwers
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
My Gallery: 
With heavier setups you won't convince me otherwise in terms of Pure casting performance of the Low Riders and with the width of the foot just adding 2 of them incrementally increases the rods Hook setting, lifting ability and reducing the amount increases casting ranges

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 02:19 pm
  PM Quote Reply
8th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
I am a believer in the church of the Low Rider!

Use them myself, even on rods that, according to commonly held views, they are unsuitable for....
9' 0.5-1.5oz rod works beautifully with LC/KT Hybrid set up, tip of blank just not up to carrying ENOUGH LC8's. More KT's out towards the tip increases contact points....

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 05:52 pm
  PM Quote Reply
9th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Enigma / Others who might be wondering about the benefits:

Recent KR Concept Build was on a 9' Pioneer .25oz -1.5oz rod. (blank very similar to Berkley Air)

As bought, it was fitted with Stainless Steel insert guides much like on the Berkley Air series in a NGC layout.

.25oz was a joke as nothing could be felt; 1.5oz pretty good.
Max distance achieved with Shimano Symetre 4000 and 12lb Berkley Nanofil 75m with 1.5oz

Rebuilt using Fuji KL-H and KT Guides:
KL25H to KL12H to KL8M thereafter 8 KT8's to a MN8 tip for 11 guides and a tip.

All guides fitted with Alconite inserts and SS frames; no exotic Titanium and SIC....

Same reel, same line, same weight, same caster: 75m was done with a one-handed flick, 110m was easy peasy, 120m took some effort and good timing. Suddenly the lighter weights were also going further too - 1oz chisel nose was going about 105m. All distances MEASURED, not guessed or calculated by counting turns of a reel handle.

Rod was eerily quiet on the cast, much more powerful in its ability to pull and felt lighter in the hand.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 07:47 pm
  PM Quote Reply
10th Post
OTGman
Member


Joined: Sun Jun 16th, 2013
Location: Japan, Japan
Posts: 156
Equipment: Everything
Best Catch: All fish
Favorite Fishing Spot: I don't fish
Boat: No boat
Club: 
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Tackle-holic wrote: in my opinion, all NGC layouts should be modified or tailored to match the blank's performance and intended use. Modified COF is, to me, contradictory, you are creating a blank-specific (Modified) NGC layout. COF is COF - large guide stepped down one at a time to the smallest then the tip.
Cannot see how NGC, if set up for mono, is not suitable, granted a braid-specific layout will probably not be the best option for mono, but if you design the layout for mono in the first place.....
I have been doing some experiments with KR Concept layouts on rods ranging from small 7' / 1oz up to 10'6" / 2-5oz. The results have been very pleasing. I think there is a definite application for shore-game rods.


2 things will happen when using NGC concepts with mono on fieldcasting

1) the shockleader wear out or melt on the stripper guide

2) the amount of force exerted on the line going into the reduction guides exceeds the breaking strain of the line. The line snaps the moment the shockleader leaves the rod tip

When using mono, choking is bad in terms of casting. All surf rod used for competitive casting will have a stripper guide size 50 for low reel, size 40 for high reel. It casts about the same distance as a multiplier rod with magged reel. If the rod is built in a way that uses the anti-tangle mechanism eg. LC or KW, chances are you have already lose out on casting distance. I try to dig out some photo to show you how these rods look like.

When using braid, the faster you can choke your line, the faster the line will flow in your running guides and eliminates wind knots/ guide wraps. That's why lowrider and other guides with higher frame and small rings are better.

What I mentioned here is casting on a field. Anything will do for fishing when there is no restriction in line diameter or sinker size. But I presume the line will still weaken even if it doesn't melt/ breaks.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 07:57 pm
  PM Quote Reply
11th Post
OTGman
Member


Joined: Sun Jun 16th, 2013
Location: Japan, Japan
Posts: 156
Equipment: Everything
Best Catch: All fish
Favorite Fishing Spot: I don't fish
Boat: No boat
Club: 
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Guides used in competitive casting for fixed spool

http://uksf.sea-angler.org/ICSFproducts.html

 

Attachment: fixed.jpg (Downloaded 2048 times)

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 08:16 pm
  PM Quote Reply
12th Post
OTGman
Member


Joined: Sun Jun 16th, 2013
Location: Japan, Japan
Posts: 156
Equipment: Everything
Best Catch: All fish
Favorite Fishing Spot: I don't fish
Boat: No boat
Club: 
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
The 13ft rod has Seymo diamite 20 tip - Fuji T-HVSG 16 - 20 - 25 -30 -40.

T-HVSG is simply a high frame sea guide made out of titanium. Made early 1990s but discontinued around 1998 and brought back into the scene in 2003. I spoke to a few other casters abroad, they told me they only had access to SV guides. I showed a BSVAG 50 in comparison. Both same height, SV50 has bigger ring than HV40. This is my alternative to guides other casters are using, since I couldn't get those larger ones.

Attachment: fixed spool.jpg (Downloaded 2051 times)

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 08:51 pm
  PM Quote Reply
13th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
NGC might not be ideal for field casting, but how many among us (except you..) filed cast as a sport? Even so, don't I remember you being a big fan of low riders? Hardly big guides.... to me at least KR concept is a single foot solution to interline rods.... Thanks for input!:SSS. It is fun playing at engineer

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 09:47 pm
  PM Quote Reply
14th Post
Enigma
Moderator


Joined: Mon Apr 27th, 2009
Location: Eldoraigne , South Africa
Posts: 12868
Equipment: Fishing Tackle and Lot's of IT
Best Catch: Anything with fins - from a 15gr 3 spot Barb ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: RSA
Boat: Na
Club: Northern Swerwers
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
My Gallery: 
Field casting with 0.35mm mono and 150 gr lead with a 13' rod that will never land a fish and lure casting with an 8' rod using 25 gr life and 0.14mm braid cannot or should not be compared in the same sentence.

As a recent test that we did with the 12' Technium showed the LAG setup outperformed this COF concept hands down with standard fishing tackle in terms of distance, cracking off's andante fishability of the rod.

This was on 12' casting rod with 125 gr.

Rod. #1 setup #50, 40, 30, 25, 20, 16 and 16 tip (standard Seagulls)
Rod #2 setup Bkwag with BPLT tip
BKWAG #50, #40, 30, 25, 20 and 20 tip
Rod #3 BLAG #20, 16H, 16J 2x 12 and 16 tip. BLAG setup won on all reel and line setup in terms of distances achieved and tested pulling power on 3kg drag setting

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 09:52 pm
  PM Quote Reply
15th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
OTGMAn,

I think we might be talking at cross purposes here:
you are talking about the guides some use for monster field casting rods (won't get into discussions about best practices as its not my forte) vs setups for much lighter rods for throwing lures in the 0,5-2.5oz range... I am very interested in performance gains for the growing shore game scene.

The (heave) Aussies have been at high speed spinning for game fish from the rocks for about 40 years, we are in my opinion just realising the possibilities....

Modern tackle has opened up opportunities in catching fish that were, in the past not within reach.

Catcjing a 5-7kg Queen Mackerel is great fun if you use tackle that gives it half a chance, but that same tackle must get the lure in front of the fish... its a game of balancing requirements. A high performance 6oz rod will get a big spoon out there, but will fish eating baitfish 80mm long eat a spoon 150mm long? Methinks chances are slim..

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 09:52 pm
  PM Quote Reply
16th Post
OTGman
Member


Joined: Sun Jun 16th, 2013
Location: Japan, Japan
Posts: 156
Equipment: Everything
Best Catch: All fish
Favorite Fishing Spot: I don't fish
Boat: No boat
Club: 
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
If choking the mono increases casting distance, Fuji will have no need for KW50. A brighton cast gives 20m difference based on .28mm to .65mm shockleader, 4.5oz sinker.

I stand by my point: NGC will never give optimal distance for mono. COF is the way to go for mono.

There's no purpose in bringing a rod to fishing when it breaks the moment a groundcast or pendulum cast is done.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 09:54 pm
  PM Quote Reply
17th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
I think I might have someone on my "side", saw the post coming through as I pressed "post reply"...
apples with apples or at least different goals require different approaches

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 10:15 pm
  PM Quote Reply
18th Post
Tackle-holic
Sealiner
 

Joined: Tue Oct 8th, 2013
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 605
Equipment: Shimano reels, custom rods
Best Catch: My son's first fish caught on his own
Favorite Fishing Spot: Vaal river below Parys; Transkei estuaries, Kosi Bay
Boat: Does a kick boat count?
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Last post regarding monster rods, as I am looking for reaction/input to long casting lighter tackle setups for LBG
Fishermen want rods that allow them to put their lure or bait (that fish will eat) "in the zone" or where the fish are...
How would you classify a KW Setup like this?
KW30 KW25 KW20 KW10 MN12 tip
COF? Probably.
If I added another 4x KW10's or KW8's to the tip would it still be COF?
My definition says its a NGC setup.
Does it cast mono well?
Yip. Very.
Does it cast braid well?
OMG yes.
Is the rod suitable for 30g lures? Not so much. Needs 90g just to wake up...
Great shore based popping rod though...

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 10:23 pm
  PM Quote Reply
19th Post
OTGman
Member


Joined: Sun Jun 16th, 2013
Location: Japan, Japan
Posts: 156
Equipment: Everything
Best Catch: All fish
Favorite Fishing Spot: I don't fish
Boat: No boat
Club: 
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
30 25 20 16 12 10 8 10. COF.

Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 10:32 pm by OTGman

Back To Top PM Quote Reply  

 Posted: Tue Mar 18th, 2014 10:38 pm
  PM Quote Reply
20th Post
OTGman
Member


Joined: Sun Jun 16th, 2013
Location: Japan, Japan
Posts: 156
Equipment: Everything
Best Catch: All fish
Favorite Fishing Spot: I don't fish
Boat: No boat
Club: 
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Pass a line from reel centre thru the tip. Put the guides based on line going thru centre of all guides. This way u will always end up with no choking. It will always end up cof if your rod has a taper or flex test that requires u to use 2 same guides or skip 1 guide size under special circumstances.

http://marunouchishop.com/main/shimano_e/e-surfrod_prosurf_pf.html

Last edited on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 10:48 pm by OTGman

Back To Top PM Quote Reply


Current time is 03:01 pm Page:    1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  Next Page Last Page    
SEALINE - South African Angling and Boating Community > General Angling Topics > Saltwater Lure Angling > Fuji KR Concept Top