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SPINNING WITH BRAID - Filling the spool correctly  Rating:  Rating
 
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 01:25 pm
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P.J.
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 02:27 pm
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Ant86
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BTTB wrote: I I suspect the design of some spools could be an issue, the Stradic and especially the Aceration I use has this protruding drag thumb screw which is the main reason for the loop developing in the first place in my opinion. This only happens every now and then, any one got any tips on how to avoid this problem.
Thats strange , Ive never had this issue on the Stradics. Can you take a pic ?

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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 02:45 pm
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Antjar wrote: BTTB wrote: I I suspect the design of some spools could be an issue, the Stradic and especially the Aceration I use has this protruding drag thumb screw which is the main reason for the loop developing in the first place in my opinion. This only happens every now and then, any one got any tips on how to avoid this problem.
Thats strange , Ive never had this issue on the Stradics. Can you take a pic ?
I will try next time it happens, not sure my old cell phone will be able to catch the moment though.

The braid makes a loop over the front of the spool as the drag screw stands proud.
So you make a cast, say 70 meters or so, you flick the bail arm over, not looking down, the next time you cast the braid beats against this loop and more often than not the braid parts at that point rendering 70 meters of line useless, unless you want a join in it.
Happened on my last trip, turned the braid over and joined it, we don't use that much braid to fish for Yellowtail, so you wont easily see the join.

When this happens the best is to drop the spinner next to the boat and let it slowly run out, no damage will be sustained. Even casting doesn't always damage the line, but a hard fast cast will.

The Stradic 8000I is my reel of choice at the moment, the Aceration is awaiting spares with the Daiwa, lol.

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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 04:03 pm
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On Dad
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Enigma wrote: Softer braids are more prone, especially on an overfilled reel. More so than for example fireline.

Thinner braids also more than thick braids.

For that reason with thinner braid I underfill by 2mm and can cast all day and as hard or as gentle as I want to with no worries.


My problems with windknots stopped the moment i started using Berkely Fireline.

I use Fireline on rods with the new Fuji guides ( Daiwa exeler elite 11 `6 ) as well as the ``older`` guides ( 12 ft Loomis ) - no difference at all !

The only common factor is that both reels are the new Shimano Stradics ( 5000 & 6000 ) that uses the Aero wrap  technology .- as soon as i got them , they were filled with Fireline , and that`s when the wind knots stopped.

Not a single wind knot for the last 6 months - and we fish every weekend!

 

Last edited on Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 04:06 pm by On Dad

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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 04:14 pm
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On Dad
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BTTB wrote: Antjar wrote: BTTB wrote: I I suspect the design of some spools could be an issue, the Stradic and especially the Aceration I use has this protruding drag thumb screw which is the main reason for the loop developing in the first place in my opinion. This only happens every now and then, any one got any tips on how to avoid this problem.
Thats strange , Ive never had this issue on the Stradics. Can you take a pic ?
I will try next time it happens, not sure my old cell phone will be able to catch the moment though.

The braid makes a loop over the front of the spool as the drag screw stands proud.
So you make a cast, say 70 meters or so, you flick the bail arm over, not looking down, the next time you cast the braid beats against this loop and more often than not the braid parts at that point rendering 70 meters of line useless, unless you want a join in it.
Happened on my last trip, turned the braid over and joined it, we don't use that much braid to fish for Yellowtail, so you wont easily see the join.

When this happens the best is to drop the spinner next to the boat and let it slowly run out, no damage will be sustained. Even casting doesn't always damage the line, but a hard fast cast will.

The Stradic 8000I is my reel of choice at the moment, the Aceration is awaiting spares with the Daiwa, lol.


...That loop over the front of the spool , is in my opinion the cause of windknots in 90% of the cases - it happens on all spinning reels , as well as on my new Stradics.

I found that when i fish with braid and jerk my sinker and hook trace over a rock to aviod damaging my braid , then that jumping action causes a loop over the front of the spool.- i`m so aware of this after fishing with braid , that it becomes 2nd nature to check my spool before i cast again .

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 Posted: Thu Aug 22nd, 2013 09:02 pm
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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 08:59 am
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Enigma wrote: Low Riders BLCAG - #20 - #12 with #16 tip - due to layout of the blank a bigger tip is advised to keep the line flowing through the center of the tip as it leaves the rod



Sensei,

If you are taping on, will you be able to also test the rod at end of the day with 8x1 cast from everybody? Position of guide no change from initial layout, only a change in type of frame.

1) BLCAG 20, 16, 12 followed by KW12s and 16tip

2) BLCAG 20,16 with all KW12s and 16tip

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 09:34 am
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Enigma
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Alfred unfortunately South African competition surf fisjermrndont Fish they "Shark" so there is VERY little Finesse it is 200lbs braid or 0.80mm nylon leaders with 50-70lbs mainline.

The rod is a -8oz C curve but with material that has a very fast recovery.

The rods are being put through their paces today for the fist time

They are going to be cast with Ultegra 14'000 with 140lbs HMP leader and 30lbs (42lbs) Suffix 832 Braid (0.33mm) with sinker ranges 6,7 & 8oz

I did takenotice of your ingenuity of mixing the guides a big advantage with your mix (to be proved by the casting) is there will never be line wrap on the stripper guide.

I went LCAG #20, 16 then KWAG 16 x 4 followed by. MNAT #16

This provides anti tangle, reduction of coil size but free flow of heavy lines and the profile of the KWag #16 is better suited to the flow to the #16 MNAT TIP.

THE OTHER IS KWAG #40-#16 x 3 with MNAT #16

There ill be testing and casting by 6 anglers today and Sunday and they will make pleny video for me. I'm not going to cast only observe (I'm not in the casting league as these young men)

I did however fill the reels myself as all 3 the reels they provided were overfilled

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 09:58 am
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Enigma
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As to the braid (and even nylon) wrapping over the spool lip and the drag adjuster knob. I many years ago with my nylon spools resorted to flipping the bail arm over by hand to eliminate the problem. (I overfill my light nylon spools and have the same problem if I close the bail arm with by reeling it closed)

If you reel the bail arm to closed position ad line is still flowing from the reel (ie from wind blowing line off or residual momentum from the cast) coil is caught in mid flow and the rotating (still half closed) bail arm catches the line and wraps it around the top off or above the top. Of the spool.

Understanding this then the way to avoid coiling around the lip or drag adjuster knob can be avoided by starting to reel only once the cast is 100% completed.


This is not always possible or desirable when lure fishing especially when casting to a school of gamefish smashing bait on the surface.

My way of making sure it doesn't happen is while the lure is in flight prepare to close the bailarm by hand as ot just before the lure hits the water. Because there is no rotation on the bail arm when it closes and there is a fraction of a second delay the line then always reels direct onto the spool and not half on half off.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 12:47 pm
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OTGman
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Thank you Enigma for your study on the following mixed build. I was still thinking whether I need a full set of stripping mechanism from LC (20,16,12). I did not test a KW12 due to fear that without the anti-tangle long feet from LC, the reel dispense couldn't change angle properly at the bottom KW12. After hearing allow me to safely stock only LC 20, 16 and KW12> which also shows that both guide has good uses and LC should not be obsoleted. I will try to confirm again if the rumor of discontinuing is true.

 

The only item I failed to investigate is whether line slap is present on UK rods which bends at the butt section. For HMG, it did not happen.

Last edited on Sat Aug 24th, 2013 12:50 pm by OTGman

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 01:02 pm
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Enigma
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The problem is/was that there is to much theorising and to little measuring and verifying actual perfomance.

There are to many rods in Europe and Africa using LCAG for them to discontinue the LC series but definitely the SG and Ti have very limited following because of cost and the LCAG is as good more robust and almost half the price

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 03:42 pm
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Some sources documenting LC cutting down distance on braid and mono can be found on search engine, it is bad influence and not accurate. I say this because of the different origins of rod bought and the time spent changing to latest guides technology. As posted by tima, http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=84935&forum_id=109

The very first page of the Fuji catalogue states the following:

For use of Monofilament/ Nylon, the butt guide to choke guide is recommended to form an isoceles triangle to reel shaft when using the New Guide Concept. (As shown in picture)

For use of Braid and supple/limp lines, the smaller butt guide can be closer to reel with the reel shaft pointing to the bottom of the ceramic ring. The reason for this change is due to guide resistance against line (nylon/ monofilament has memory and retain its shape which will resist changing of it natural form to squeeze into the nearer/ smaller guide). The concept uses supple nature of line to boost distance over the use of nylon/monofilament.

1) Rod balanced is maintained by shifting the centre of mass lower as compared to larger tip running guide size (present in SVs cone-of-flight I presume). Lighter tip increases tip recovery and sensitivity.
2) Despite flex near butt section, the smaller butt guide distributes power to the butt section. Retains a locking point for power casts, powerful lifting power for fishing. Bottom section of rod is accessed with more power.

Criteria for moving butt guide toward reel seat direction for braid usage

- Space the guides starting from the tip without increasing number of guides for a lighter tip section

' Comparing same poundage of nylon to braid, the guide resistance from the increase of guide will be less for braid'

- Bottom guide must be shifted in small increment to prevent collapse of rod close to the bottom section. (Refering to retaining the intended locking point of rod)

- Casting distance will increase but also subjected to the kind of rod used.

Description is refering to general rod usage not just long rod. Tackle test is done on coffee grinder, high reel mount as depicted in photo/ youtube.

If tapered nylon leader is not present, the shockleader must also be braid to gain significant distance over nylon. Those HV/SV will cast further on nylon but when braid is used runs a risk of tangles. The catalogue only emphasizes New Guide Concept or its variant modified NGC as they shed tangle better, lighten and balance the rod as a package. Rod has more power since the excess baggage (heavy guides) were reduced as compared to guideless interline rods.

Fuji forgot to mention that with low height of guide, rod torsion is reduced and larger fraction of power from the cast is transmitted to the spine rather than away. Which also reduces the catastrophic failure from casting strokes generating abrupt change in angle and sustaining injury.

Bull's eye XT is a reel extremely hard to tangle compared to Daiwa competition reels. Spool and reel shaft angle is 0, nice tool for fishermen.

Attachment: Untitled.jpg (Downloaded 912 times)

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:02 pm
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BTTB wrote: I suspect the design of some spools could be an issue, the Stradic and especially the Aceration I use has this protruding drag thumb screw which is the main reason for the loop developing in the first place in my opinion. This only happens every now and then, any one got any tips on how to avoid this problem.

BTTB sensei,

Fully agreed. Each guide concept even though tangle free has a limit to how fast it can remove tangles. Put an guide just beside your reel and you get tangle almost everytime. Because the creation of tangles is faster than the rate of removal.

Each spinning reel design have different rate of release. The reel that releases line extremely fast that is used for braid category competition is as follows.

1) Long, shallow spool- Line is closer to leaving the spool lip generating less friction

2) Angled spool- The line lay at bottom of spool is more protruding. The release will be faster since less friction from spool lip.

3) Angled reel shaft- The reel points towards the isoceles triangle increasing the rate of release of line

4) Small reel face diameter- The coils are smaller and lesser deceleration due to line rubbing rod blank. It allows the use of smaller butt guides.

5) Oscillation- Slower oscillation lay line more compact like what you see when buying a spool of line from shop. The line leaves reel and do not loosen the line lay underneath the top layer much. As compared to the X-line lay method, which stores line in spirals. Line loosen at the layer beneath the moment outer layer of line leaves. Larger coils because the line is loose even before being pulled out of reel.

But you can always buy a fast reel, just that be prepared to get experienced rod builder to help you synchronise the guide spacing/ size so that removal is faster than creation. That's why most competitive caster usually require these knowledge to help them use these high end reels. They are the most fussy customer a rod builder will ever encounter.

 

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Last edited on Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:15 pm by OTGman

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:20 pm
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BTTB
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I don’t think I am making myself understood properly, I have no issues with my guides nor wind knots, what happens is this, you cast and lets say 70 meters of braid comes off the spool, the problem is when you close the bail arm, the line sometimes loops over the front of the spool across the drag thumb screw and if you don't notice it you simply start retrieving the 70 meters of braid, upon retrieval you cast again and this is when you hear the whirr of the line coming off that is rubbing against the loop over the spool.
Often the braid parts at the loop rendering 70 meters of braid in essence useless, unless you want to have a join in your braid.
I turned my braid over the last time and joined it, but then there is 200 meters or more on the spool.

Other than looking each time and/or manually moving the braid off the front of the spool I know of no other way of solving this problem. The whole thing would happen a lot less if the drag thumb screw was recessed in which case it may never happen.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:24 pm
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Enigma
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2 of my own spinning reels.

The first is my Catfish / dropshot Awa-Shima Pulse Tournament with 20lbs Jerry Brown. This I use on an 8'6" Oval Based SeaGrand spinning rod (10'6" reduced 2' from Butt section) Easily launches 1.5oz (45gr) spoon to 100m. Rod is fitted with LCAG #20, #16H, 12, 3 x 10 and 12' tip. Have never had a line wrap on this setup and is used in both Salt and Freshwater (Freshwater for Catfish)

When used on the 10'6" I get up to 150m on a 2.5oz bullet spoon or V-Back

This braid is very soft and is used with full 3m nylon leader off the spool.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:27 pm
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OTGman
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Point rod tip to sky, line will slack downward. Close bail, exert finger pressure, reel line in. Still have to check though, line may end up in recesses below spool.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:28 pm
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Enigma
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This one I use on the 10'6" SeaGrand Plugging / Paddletail / Bucktail rod

It's 40lbs Fireline and has landed a few Tail a Garrick and 3 small Raggies. Also no "FRAPS"

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:37 pm
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Enigma
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BTTB, I tried providing the answer in post 29. I hope I explained it correctly, posted from the phone

If you reel the bail arm closed the closing arm, while still above the spool catches line flowing off the reel and because the rotor body (to which the bail arm is attached) is spinning while closing it wraps the braid around the lip of the spool or drag adjustment knob as it is moving into closed position.

Closing the bail arm by hand, without the rotor still spinning ensures that the moment you start retrieving all braid is laid on the spool and not over the lip or drag adjustment knob.

The problem you are indicating also happens with nylon when spinning, although to a lesser degree.

The solution is cast and then by hand close the bail arm just as or just before the lure hits the water and don't use the reel handle to close the bail arm.

This is guaranteed to resolve the problem. The alternative is to get a rear drag reel (smaller washers / smaller drag) as they have a smooth reel spool surface (no drag adjustment knob) so nothing for the line to catch on.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 04:45 pm
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OTGman
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What is the disadvantage of rear drag reel? I never seen the reel for sale except for internet. There must be a reason why they make drag knob above spool.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 24th, 2013 05:29 pm
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Enigma
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Rear drags are for lighter fishing as the washers are smaller and the drag is on the shaft which rotates in the drag and not the spool rotating around a fixed shaft.

Beefing the drag up would result in bent or twisted shaft and very fast wear of the Drag washers.

Recommended for spining for small fish or catching Carp but not for catching hard fighting fish

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