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DRAG, PULLING LOADS, EFFECT OF STRAIGHT OR HIGH STICK  Rating:  Rating
 
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2012 07:30 pm
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Enigma
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Now the pull test.

I set the drag to 9kg and then attached it to a scale fixed to a point level with my hip and by lifting the rod from straight stick till the line releases from the spool.

12' Carp rod, lifted and pulled till the rod snapped and only managed 6.2kg and almost reached 90 degrees (rod snapped in the butt.)

7'6" Popping Rod, Limpopoking's lifted 70degrees and released line.

350/4 Glass, couldn't get the rod to 90 degrees and couldn't get the line to pull of the reel

SeaGrand's both to 70-75 degrees and released line

Shark Extreme and Rugged Special reached about 45-50 degrees and released line

30lbs Boat rod between 40-45 degrees.

These were approximate angles as I haven't got a matrix set up to measure against.

I always wondered how we would determine pulling power of rod's, well this answers it. - Not lock a reel and see how hard can you jerk or pull against a scale.

1. Pre-set a reel drag and then use various rods to pull in a vertical plane

2. Mark the angle it has to be pulled to in the vertical plane till line is released from the reel

3. The rod going through the lesser arc provides the best pulling ability.

For example the soft glass rod pulled through to 90 degrees without imparting 9kg on the scale

The Shark Extreme pulled to 45 degrees and was then already pulling at 9kg with a further 45 degrees to pull.

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 Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2012 07:39 pm
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boepens
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Cool craig so my thinking was about right. Mmm

So would I be correct in saying that if line is releasing at 45deg one could in fact up ur drag more iiiiif u can hold it.

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 Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2012 08:06 pm
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Enigma
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Boep the reason for the low setting of 3kg drag was that we were limited to 30kg load bearing.

So the stiffer rod results in higher load on the angler but is far superior in terms of Pulling power as well.

So in very short and simplified terms:

1. The stiffer rod produces more load n the fulcrum point to the angler.

2. The higher the angle of the rod the higher the load on the angler and the higher the drag on the fish (up to 20%)

3. The shorter the rod and the stiffer the rod the more the pulling power.

Straight Sticking and it's merits

1. Rod between horizontal to 45 degrees makes the fish work harder for line and works against the mechanical force of the reel and it's drag system.

2. Power rods like the Extreme pull harder and pull harder for longer.

Keep the rod low in the power from the fish part of the fight.

Pull the fish harder using a stronger rod during the power from the angler phase of the fight.

Remember the 40-45kg load on your hands and arms is translated directly to the lower back in the fight when using a 7kg+ drag setting. (Just wondering to myself what the actual load will be if you used 17kg of drag on a 14' rod, even 12kg)

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 Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2012 08:12 pm
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Enigma
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Now you know why Tuna and I just love our Extremes so much and Boep his /8+1 and Alton / Trophy the 350/6 or /7.

Long enough to cast, short and powerful enough to pull.

Well through someone else's wild claims and some standardised testing although all not 100% quantified I now better understand a lot more about the working of some of the rods.

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 Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2012 08:45 pm
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Pylstert
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Wow, this has clarified a helluva lot of speculation and countless theories, thanks Enigma for all the research and tests!

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 Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2012 09:13 pm
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kopstamp
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Mana: 
that is very cool info!

makes alot of sense on way i use when sitting down, so in short the "fitter" you are the longer one cam fight in the 45 deg with a stiifer rod.

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 Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2012 08:50 am
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FLUKE
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Mana: 
Enigma wrote: To standardise I used a torium on preset drag of 3.25kg to test the load on the angler.

We measure the load at the anglers, typical grip posisiton to the maximum load experienced on 3.25kg

SeaGrand II. 4-6oz 4.2m: 16.25kg

Seagrand II. 6-8oz 4-2m: 17.85kg

Shark Extreme Heavy 3.85m 18.25kg

Rugged Special 10z 4m 19.40kg

Purglas 350/6 (4m) 17.05kg

Purglas 350/4 fiberglass 19.94kg

PE8 7'6" Popping Rod 12.4kg

5' 30lbs boat rod 8.6kg

12' Soft Glass Carp Rod 7.2kg

So why such a difference on the various 14' rods. what I found is that the softer the rod, the more you pull on the rod the more it bends so once the drag starts releasing line the rod is effectively 6' long.

The one that didn't make sense was the 13' Fiberglas, Purglas which worked me as much as a the Shark Extreme heavy.


Hi Craig, this is great info and certainly makes me wonder if I really want a 14':fbash

What I'd like to know however is with all these rods will the load at the end of the line differ?

In other works with a Shark Extreme I'd be pulling 1,2kg harder than with my 350/6 but is any of the extra effort being applied to the shark? Do we need these stiff rods for pulling power or are we just tireing ourselves out faster with them??

Personally I think that the stiffer rod allows you to use a higher drag setting but it obviously works you a lot harder. The reason I make this point is I have contemplated using my /6 with the Tor50 and 0,60 as a sliding rod and swimbaits??? and rather use the /7 as a throwbait rod with a Tor30 because the /7 will handle the big bait better. I'm however concerned that the /6 will just buckle under the drag and 0,60 while the 0,50 will not do justice to the /7.

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 Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2012 09:31 am
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Enigma
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In short the stiffer rod although it works you more it reaches its max pulling power much earlier in the arc delivering way more pressure on the fish and offering you a longer portion of the stroke to actually pull the fish with.

So the /7 will be superior to the /6 for pulling and if you reverse the forces applied it would stand to reason that the /7 would be a better throwbait rod.

Considering that a 24kg Spotty in the height of it's fight could in short burst apply no more than 8-9kg on you, you would be able to turn and pull him in the middle of a burst with 0.60mm Big Game on the Tor set at 9kg the reel would release line before it could pop as the drag setting is under 50% of the lines actual breaking strain.

Maybe 5-10 degrees more on the /7 than the /6 and 10 deg in a 90 deg arc of a 4m rod is (I will have to measure actual distance) but it's quite a bit.

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 Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2012 10:03 am
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FLUKE
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Mana: 
Thanks Craig.
I'd also assume that the stiffer rod will try and straighten itself applying a pulling force on the shark even if your arms aren't pulling the rod through an arc. Much like the stretch in the nylon does during a fight.

That 350/4 Fibreglass has me puzzled though. How many and what quality guides did it have?
Could it be that Carbon "absorbs" "transfer" the load in such a way that is more efficient that Fibreglass. Anyway that's probably a discussion for another thread.

In the end the bottom line is Short rods Pull hard with less effort:breakd::breakd:

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 Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2012 10:22 am
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Mango
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Sticky of note .
kudos to Craig for all the resurch and testing.

Last edited on Tue Jul 3rd, 2012 09:53 pm by Mango

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 Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2012 10:25 am
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kopstamp
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/8 purglas 13ft mmmm no wonder I like mine so much!

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 Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2012 02:08 pm
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Kenty
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smiley6996 wrote:
this all sounds way to complicated for my abused brain when i hear the rod making funny noices i know not to pull that hard again:hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst:::rofl:

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 Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2012 09:09 pm
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Koper
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Mango wrote:
Sticky of note .
kudos to Craig for all the rechers and testing.


Agreed & made sticky

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 Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2012 03:44 pm
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SeanV
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Enigma wrote: sea sick wrote:
boepens wrote: I've always said when pulling a big fish 45degree rod angle means less on u and more on the fish
it's the other way around, straight sticking, more on the fish less on the angler. the higher the rod is lifted, the more force exerted on the angler


Go read the results again.

The higher the rod the more on the fish but also more on the angler.


Hi Guys,

 

From an engineers point of view( that I will try and keep simple)...

 

Firstly, whatever force you apply on the fish, the fish applies on you ( Newton law), whether you flatstick or hold it at an angle evertything needs to balance. The difference comes in due something called the moment of a force. (see below)

lets start with a definition of a moment exerted on a point (fulcrum lever principle) which is equivalent to magnitude of the force multiplied by the distance to the point. Where the point in our case is the butt of the rod. where the fish's force is exerted at the tip, and the force you exert is where you hold the rod and is regulated by your drag setting. you will see how this is relevant.

The angle at which you hold the rod determines the magnitude of the force you as an angler need to counteract (fight) the force exerted by the fish in 2 planes. namely X and Y axis, where x is flat, Y straight up.

So, if when you are straight sticking (no bend in the rod, where the rod tip is pointed directly at the fish) the force applied to you is directly as a result of the fish due to the fish pulling in the X plane and you are pulling the same plane.

 

Once you start lifting the rod, you increase the distance in the Y plane thereby introducing the distance to the point part of the moment equation. the more of a  force is exerted on your hands at the centre point and on your bucket. This is also helped by the amount of force exerted down through you to the ground which you need not hold in your hands.

 

Now, when you have a shorter rod, this distance from the point where you hold it and to where the force of the fish is applied is decreased, thereby decreasing the moment of the force and how much you need to hold.

 

So in summary, the amount of force you put on the fish (from the rod tip) is regulated your drag setting and line strength. If the force you can apply to the fish exceeds your line strength = bust up. Also, the overall force stays the same, only the orientation in which it acts changes. At the end of it all, everything needs to balance. because, like Chuck Norris, no one will defy Newton. :fbash

 

PS: Hope it is not entire gibberish to all:blah, if it is I can try and calrify, or else forget about it.. We fish to enjoy it...:)

 

 

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 Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2012 11:16 am
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Henning Venter
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Mana: 
party mense kan somme maak, en meet en weeg en meet en weeg en somme maak, maar kan nie gooi nie....

so om ver te kan gooi het jy nie n calculater of gradeboog of land meter nodig nie.

goeie stok , n katrol(shimano), fisieke krag, styl en tyd nodig.

so vat jou goeie stok en katrol en gaan oefen... oefen en oefen.... as jou styl regkom en jy afstand kry.... gebruik jou KRAG en gooi verder.!

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 Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2012 11:35 am
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boepens
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Henning Venter wrote:
party mense kan somme maak, en meet en weeg en meet en weeg en somme maak, maar kan nie gooi nie....

so om ver te kan gooi het jy nie n calculater of gradeboog of land meter nodig nie.

goeie stok , n katrol(shimano), fisieke krag, styl en tyd nodig.

so vat jou goeie stok en katrol en gaan oefen... oefen en oefen.... as jou styl regkom en jy afstand kry.... gebruik jou KRAG en gooi verder.!


Nou werklik. So as ek n daiwa het sal ek sker nie ver kan gooi nie. Nou wat gaan ek maak ?

Mmm. No probs sal maar net aanhou om vis te vang. :wfish:wfish

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 Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2012 11:38 am
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boepens
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Henning Venter wrote:
party mense kan somme maak, en meet en weeg en meet en weeg en somme maak, maar kan nie gooi nie....

so om ver te kan gooi het jy nie n calculater of gradeboog of land meter nodig nie.

goeie stok , n katrol(shimano), fisieke krag, styl en tyd nodig.

so vat jou goeie stok en katrol en gaan oefen... oefen en oefen.... as jou styl regkom en jy afstand kry.... gebruik jou KRAG en gooi verder.!


Nou werklik. So as ek n daiwa het sal ek sker nie ver kan gooi nie. Nou wat gaan ek maak ?

Mmm. No probs sal maar net aanhou om vis te vang. :wfish:wfish

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 Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2012 11:50 am
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Craig Van der Poll
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Henning Venter wrote:
party mense kan somme maak, en meet en weeg en meet en weeg en somme maak, maar kan nie gooi nie....

so om ver te kan gooi het jy nie n calculater of gradeboog of land meter nodig nie.

goeie stok , n katrol(shimano), fisieke krag, styl en tyd nodig.

so vat jou goeie stok en katrol en gaan oefen... oefen en oefen.... as jou styl regkom en jy afstand kry.... gebruik jou KRAG en gooi verder.!


LIKE!

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 Posted: Tue May 28th, 2013 11:36 pm
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joshua02
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Enigma I understand with nothing soild to push on fish will be weaker, but how come some fish pull harder then others? Is it due to tail design or something else?

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 Posted: Sun Aug 11th, 2013 09:44 am
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Pieter Immelman
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Mana: 
I don't know if this applies to this topic but none the less:

What is the difference in line resistance on the guides if you compare braid with mono. How will this have a influence of the life expectancy of the guides?

thanks

PI

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