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SEALINE - South African Angling and Boating Community > General Angling Topics > Saltwater Fishing > DRAG, PULLING LOADS, EFFECT OF STRAIGHT OR HIGH STICK


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DRAG, PULLING LOADS, EFFECT OF STRAIGHT OR HIGH STICK  Rating:  Rating
 
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 Posted: Sun Aug 11th, 2013 01:46 pm
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Simen
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Enigma wrote: Now for my actual reason for this post.

Some people have absolutely no idea of what 7kg and 17kg of drag is.

2. He locks his Saltiga lever drag at 17kg and within 1 hour with this locked drag exhausts and lands a 180kg Blacktip never once straight sticking as straight sticking is for Pussy's

So in answer to all this I took a pre-set Trinidad 50 from my box and put it on a 13' rod.

I let him try pull the line of the reel by hand to which he commented on how extremely tight the drag was but had to be carbontex.

I then fixed a scale to a harnas on the rod so he could measure the load bearing and see what the load was.

After towing him around for 5 minutes, getting him huffing and puffing and wringing his hands I packed it all away.

7.5kg drag setting preset and measured. 32kg load bearing, no comment other than the rod is a pole (Shark Extreme Heavy) and the drag is super smooth (Carbontex).

He had a look at the load bearing and I explained the load bearing principle and showed him that what he claimed -

15' (4.65m) rod with 650mm grip position with 17kg of drag would mean a load bearing of 100kg + for 1 hour solid??????

I don't want to arm wrestle this guy as at 1.75m and 70kg he must have Genetically enhance muscles.


Lat me start by saying what a great article!!


I wont go as far as the guy mentioned in (2) (in red above.

But my opinion of straight sticking is the following.

Its damn impressive --- and there is where it stops, its means nothing.

By using Enigma's calculations.

When straight sticking the only resistance you have is the weight set on your drag.

Force x 1 = force

Just for arguments sake.

It takes a fish to get tired 300m at your current drag setting (straight stick) so it means you have to retrieve 300m of line extra to land him.

Also it gives him 300m of line while you are retrieving him to "rest" again.

So if from the beginning you hold your rod at either 60, or 45 deg, you exert more pressure on him.

He should now tire at %???? quicker as there is more force also he will use %??? less line to tire

Bit of a catch 22 situation dont you think

Question --- what is the direct pressure you put onto 3.5 to 5.4mm of steel when straight sticking??

Because thats how thick the shafts on your reels spool are.

Also on your line (mono)

Mono can stretch in the region 10%. So with straight sticking there is no rod (bend) or arms to absorb any sudden bursts.

If the line is already stretched at 10% now meaning there is no stretch available to absorb any sudden movements, then its bye bye fish

with the rod bent you can absorb the sudden jerk either with the rod or your arms.

OK I have now opened the can of worms

 

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 Posted: Sun Aug 11th, 2013 02:23 pm
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Enigma
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All you have said is True Simen and us wo straight stick fish seldom do it with a rod parallel to the ground but rather at 25-35 degrees

Most mono has 14-17% stretch Fluoro carbon is about the only nylon with 10%

The key here is to why playing big fish with shorter stronger rods is to the advantage of the angler and longer softer rods to the advantage of the fish.

Straight sticking with a fish in the Shorebreak will result in a snapped line unless the drag is set to 80% of the line's breaking strain and you in your urgency to land the fish keep your fingers away from the spool. I will never advocating straight stick at the point of landing the fish even if the rod is only held at 30 degrees you have an extra 2 m to absorb shock while the reel's drag engages to release line.

The question on braid I will do a separate post on. In short, modern guides are so hard that braid will not damage them. Braid however has a low melting point and is not very abrasion resistant so the wrong and /or cheaper guides will do damage to your braided line before your braided line does damage to the guide.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 11th, 2013 09:27 pm
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Simen
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Enigma wrote: All you have said is True Simen and us wo straight stick fish seldom do it with a rod parallel to the ground but rather at 25-35 degrees

Most mono has 14-17% stretch Fluoro carbon is about the only nylon with 10%

The key here is to why playing big fish with shorter stronger rods is to the advantage of the angler and longer softer rods to the advantage of the fish.

Straight sticking with a fish in the Shorebreak will result in a snapped line unless the drag is set to 80% of the line's breaking strain and you in your urgency to land the fish keep your fingers away from the spool. I will never advocating straight stick at the point of landing the fish even if the rod is only held at 30 degrees you have an extra 2 m to absorb shock while the reel's drag engages to release line.

The question on braid I will do a separate post on. In short, modern guides are so hard that braid will not damage them. Braid however has a low melting point and is not very abrasion resistant so the wrong and /or cheaper guides will do damage to your braided line before your braided line does damage to the guide.

Well done again, I am looking forward to the braid article

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 Posted: Tue Aug 13th, 2013 12:10 pm
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FLUKE
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I must say that the more I fish the more I realise that straight sticking has a part to play.
Initially I was very anti straight sticking and still don't often resort to straight sticking because I much prefer the feel and control an upright rod has to offer HOWEVER I've never seen the comrades won by someone sprinting 90km!!
So if we say an upright rod is like sprinting and straight sticking is a comfortable jog and we consider that shark fishing is like the marathon of fishing disciplines...... then maybe we must consider how we "run the race"

I can do an hour without too much need to straight stick on my /6 but a 14' or my /7 and I'm hurting after an hour! How will I survive another hour or 2 or 3 if I've burnt myself out in the 1st hour??

Maybe the biggest lesson shark fishing is teaching me is energy management. There is limited value in hanging on for dear life trying to turn a shark that is heading for the horizon....Yes the high rod increases drag pressure on the fish but so does an educated thumb on the spool.

The 2nd and biggest problem I have is that there is no doubt that in a high rod position the tip eye on a stiff rod puts massive pressure on the line and generates some serious temperature.

I therefore am being lead, By Experience, and Quantified by Craigs tests that there is merit in managing myself and my line at the risk of being called a (whatever) and that will lead to an improved level of pleasure and success.

There are always exceptions and there will be times I need to clear reef etc and my preferance is still a high rod but I'm not going to let foolish pride get in the way of managing myself and my tackle well when I hook that Trophy.

So yes you may see me spending a little time straight sticking in future but please hang around to take a pic of my Trophy catch ;)

Different styles, different opinions, similar results but all better understood because of the initiative and time Craig took to produce the facts, Thanks _seal1_

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 Posted: Sat Aug 17th, 2013 04:56 pm
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OTGman
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Very interesting post senseis, learnt something new. The explanation on casting very true indeed, ideally a longer rod will cast further than 13ft under full compression. In casting other factors come in... The effective length (compressed portion) may vary between rod length. A 13ft with full compression will always cast further than a 14ft version with only top section bending because flex adds power to sinker.

In actual situation, extra leverage from longer rods may works against the user and slows the cast down. It is not unusual that rods are at some point of time shortened prior to casting competition. The logic behind this is as described

1) The rod was shorter, lesser leverage (lower weight though not such big effect) and the cast could be done faster. In simple term, the rod do not feel as stiff as before but in reality part of a softer material is removed, the rod stiffness did not change. It merely shortened.

2) The recovery is faster, the shockleader knot has lesser tendency to bounce. The movement of line is maintain while going through guides with lesser loss to sound/ heat energy when the shockleader hits the tip ring. A guide with less friction will always perform better. While a larger guide will allow line to pass through but the adverse effect is more tip weight which affect rod recovery somewhat.

One may cast far on a rod A 13ft but when rod A 14ft is used, it may sometime helplessly overpowers the user. That is why you rarely see 15ft rods used in competitive casting. 13-14ft are usually more popular lengths, though some prefer 12ft+ after they cropped their 13ft.

What is your take on high reel and low reel position in casting? This topic is something that has always been debated but no definite answer. The logic is by using low reel, an additional guide can be placed to access the power at butt section of rod. The reel also acts as a counterbalance which allow the left arm pull even harder while right hand pivots. But for a rod with oval butt which is not meant to flex, would the effect of low reel be lesser?

Last edited on Sat Aug 17th, 2013 04:59 pm by OTGman

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 Posted: Sat Aug 17th, 2013 09:07 pm
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FLUKE
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http://www.sealine.co.za/view_topic.php?id=85786&forum_id=1

Good Points OTGman, this link is a thread where the question was asked and I tried to make this point, your comments could be further discussed there as it would be more topic related.

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 Posted: Tue Nov 26th, 2013 08:15 am
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benniejordaan
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Enigma, just read this now... Brilliant post!

I read somewhere that the power exerted by a fish is proportional to it's length. Not that it's important though as it's probably the same thing at the end of the day.

Again, excellent post. Also explains why parabolic rods work best.

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 Posted: Thu Jan 30th, 2014 10:47 am
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BOEPENSIE
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Kudos to Enigma for all the research and information in this thread._seal1_

Am I correct in saying that a stiff13 ft rod will be less pressure on the angler but more on the fish than a 14 ft rod?

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 Posted: Thu Jan 30th, 2014 05:46 pm
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Enigma
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Right and a 12'almost double the pressure a 14'does but a 14'theoretically will cast further

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 Posted: Thu Jan 30th, 2014 09:12 pm
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BOEPENSIE
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:thankie

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 Posted: Wed Mar 19th, 2014 01:00 pm
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ANTON BARNARD
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Enigma wrote: Right and a 12'almost double the pressure a 14'does but a 14'theoretically will cast further

lol

And after weeks of searching and 100 questions i have jet again bought the wrong rod ,14.6 PENTAGON HEAVY .life is sush a dissapointment

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 Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2014 06:30 pm
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OTGman
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ANTON BARNARD wrote:
Enigma wrote: Right and a 12'almost double the pressure a 14'does but a 14'theoretically will cast further

lol

And after weeks of searching and 100 questions i have jet again bought the wrong rod ,14.6 PENTAGON HEAVY .life is sush a dissapointment


Is the rod too stiff?

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 Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2014 07:05 pm
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Enigma
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It is a very stiff 430cm rod. Would be like 150-100-430 of you want to compare it to to your super slim.

He was considering the 3.65m version for pulling some big sharks and ended up buying the 4.30m and after reading this saw he was in for same lower back ache from the added pressure the shark will exert on him via the longer rod

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 Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2014 07:05 pm
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Enigma
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It is a very stiff 430cm rod. Would be like 150-100-430 of you want to compare it to to your super slim.

He was considering the 3.65m version for pulling some big sharks and ended up buying the 4.30m and after reading this saw he was in for same lower back ache from the added pressure the shark will exert on him via the longer rod

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 Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2014 07:35 pm
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OTGman
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Have he tried putting the reel on higher arm position?

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 Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2014 07:56 pm
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Enigma
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It is a SHIMANO 50 size reel to be used and cannot be cast from high position. It is used with 50lbs line and 150lbs leader.

The other thing is that one seldom spends less than 2 hours with a big shark and with a reel at high position the angler's arms will drain of blood quickly causing cramps.

High position also means a long butt which is always in the way when maneuvering around on rocks where climbing with the rod is needed and the rod butt always gets in the way.

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 Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2014 07:59 pm
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Enigma
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Quite frankly if I recommend high reel with a multiplier to any angler in South Africa I will simply be laughed at. In 40 years of surf fishing in South Africa I have not seen a single South African angler with a multiplier in the high position

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 Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2014 08:00 pm
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OTGman
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Now I understand. Thanks.

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 Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2014 02:56 pm
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2 hours of This .

Almost damn near Killed Me , Not To mention the lower back .

Straight stick , but as eNigma Explained , in the 25degree Region .

I couldn't choose Whether or Not to Stick or not - The Fish was an absolute Bus ...

Attachment: 20140525_125135.jpg (Downloaded 190 times)

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