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DRAG, PULLING LOADS, EFFECT OF STRAIGHT OR HIGH STICK  Rating:  Rating
 
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 Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 08:50 pm
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Enigma
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I was reading up on the "Fishing Test" applied to Awa-Shima lines and the more I delved the more i was taken on a trip of many world angling sites and came across some very, very eloquent and scientifically minded anglers.

I then took some of the statements and as you know I as many fishermen am a doubting Thomas and also believe in the addage "Om te Meet is om te Weet"

First interesting fact, I haven't quantified this but to many informed sources agree on this and the logic applied makes perfect sense. This is that no fish can pull harder than 33% of it's body weight. This is simple mechanics of the medium the fish is in so no matter how hard it swims it does not have traction against a solid surface like you do on solid land.

They showed that an average man can only exert on average 7% of his body mass when attached to a line (to a scale) while the swimmer swims freestyle and then only for short bursts.

They made what seemed quite wild statements regarding loads and stresses and being me I went and tested the statements and found it all to be spot on.

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 Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 09:49 pm
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Enigma
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LOAD BEARING ON FULCRUM POINT

The Fulcrum being here you are holding onto the rod.

So with the rod at 60 degrees when fighting a fish on a 5.5kg drag setting (5.5kg tested on a scale when the reel continuously releases line from the spool)

What would you think the load bearing is, in other words what weight are you holding in your hands?

To explain this very elementally:

Lets say we are fishing 15kg... We are standing with the rod at 45 degrees to the horizon and the fish is at 90 degrees to the rod.

The drag is set at 5kg (easier to work with)

Our rod, is a custom 3.80m Extreme Heavy, 3800mm Long and the winch is mounted 300mm from the bottom..

If the butt is in your bucket and the fish is running with 5kg of drag screaming off the reel then

(Lets call the weight on our arms X (Fulcrum))

X x 650mm (where you hold the rod = 3800mm x 5kg
= 3800 x 5 / 650
= 27.3 kg, that's if the rod doesn't bend etc etc.

Because it bends and the fulcrum point changes the actual tested load on your arms with this rod is 20.3kg.

14' or 4.2m rod and the calculated load is 30.4kg and tested an actual 24.5kg and that for only 1 foot longer rod?

What this means is that there is actually 20.3kg pulling on your arms for 13' at 5kg and 24.5kg load on a 14'...

That's a half a bag of cement you could be holding for an hour or so fighting a fish.....

Now lets say we are fishing 17kg jigging gear (drag set at 5kg), using the same principle, we will go to a 1.5m Rod and being jigging gear the reel is mounted only 450mm up from the base (so will assume we are holding rod 100mm above the reel ie at 550mm)

X x 550mm = 1500mm x 5kg
= 1500 x 5 / 550
= 13.63kg

Seems crazy doesn't it, same drag and half the load on the angler.

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 Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 09:57 pm
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Enigma
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CASTING

So in the converse the longer rod needs more power to be transferred through it to translate to a long cast but then the longer the rod the more energy is translated to the object being cast so if the power of the cast is transferred correctly and efficiently a longer rod will cast further.

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 Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 09:58 pm
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smiley6996
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this all sounds way to complicated for my abused brain when i hear the rod making funny noices i know not to pull that hard again

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 Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 10:28 pm
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Enigma
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STRAIGHT STICK - HIGH STICK

Set the drag on the reel to release line at 5.5kg

Straight stick and the reel releases line at 5.5kg

Lift it to 60 degrees and it increases the drag to 6.73kg before line is release. (20% increase)

Load on angler in Straight stick 5.5kg but at 60 degrees it goes over 25kg

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 Posted: Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 10:37 pm
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Def-e-nition
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Enigma wrote:
CASTING

So in the converse the longer rod needs more power to be transferred through it to translate to a long cast but then the longer the rod the more energy is translated to the object being cast so if the power of the cast is transferred correctly and efficiently a longer rod will cast further.


hello Craig .
and the Way I started learning This , Was to go an expensive , full circle ....

Long
short
Long

My Next comp rod , will be a 14'6 S6 . i'm so cheesed off i didn't buy The one Moyeni had advertized , I'm still recovering from The Remorse ...!

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 01:24 am
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Psy
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Very interesting Craig.
Physics for you again - not my strong point.

:)

Stu I have a rod you may well want!
Call me shortly, am still in Brasil.

Last edited on Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 01:26 am by Psy

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 05:28 am
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Jacquesdw
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Very interesting post!

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 07:59 am
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Koper
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Thanx Craig, good reading matter for this Saterday morning.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 07:59 am
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iggy
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Very interesting post Enigma. I usually set my drag to 1/3 of the kg line Im using on a flat stick as recommended by the manufacturer of my reels. Yet I have had my line broken of more than once when I had a good run. My question is should I set the drag with the rod at 60 Deg? I use 6.8kg xx line, what do you think the drag Kg should be set at?

Thanks

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 09:15 am
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wortel
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Enigma wrote:
STRAIGHT STICK - HIGH STICK

Lift it to 60 degrees and it increases the drag to 67.3kg before line is release.



If the drag increases to 67kg and the line is "connected" to the drag, does that mean that the strain on the line is 67.3kg?
Physics has never been one of my strong suits, so please pardon the ignorance...

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 10:57 am
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Kipi die kingfisher
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That is shocking numbers, flip from now on, you must take a engineer with when you go fishing.

Cant believe line don't snap more often when we lift up our rods, to say the 60 degree angle. But if you think about it, if you have a decent fish on the other end, you never really lift your rod past 45degrees.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 12:03 pm
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aquadementia
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wortel wrote:
Enigma wrote:
STRAIGHT STICK - HIGH STICK

Lift it to 60 degrees and it increases the drag to 67.3kg before line is release.



If the drag increases to 67kg and the line is "connected" to the drag, does that mean that the strain on the line is 67.3kg?
Physics has never been one of my strong suits, so please pardon the ignorance...

obviously a typo, should read 6.7kg

very interesting Craig, thanks for sharing I'm sure this involved quite a bit of research

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 12:42 pm
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Enigma
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Tx Aqua, yes a Typo it should read 6.73kg which is a 20% increase in drag.

Iggy if you set your drag at 2.5kg then at 60% (fighting position) then at a 20% increase in drag the fish will still only be pulling at 3kg which is still inside limits.

There are a number of other factors to consider in that knotd in your 6.8kg (to leader or to swivels) could drop actual 6.8kg to 4.8kg.

Without knowing your tackle or style of fishing I'll throw in a few variable for consideration (not aimed at you, your skill, style or your tackle - just possible variables)

Lower quality guides can have dramatic drag effect on high rods in that line is not smoothly run over the guides adding a lot of drag.

Drag efficiency, this is where I personally lost a tournament winning fish, Goedkoop is Duur koop in my case. There is such a thing as startup innertia and with a sudden hard pull on the drag it spikes before releasing line ie initial thrust of the fish from no line release to a surging fish taking line may require as much as double the drag setting, spiking it momentarily upward.

If the line is parting just after an apparently subdued fish takes off this is in all probability the problem, if the line pops while the fish is already taking line (steadily) then there is another problem and lighter drag settings would be a better option.

If a lunging fish results in broken line on a drag set to 1/3 the breaking strain then I would recommend you consider Smoothdrag or re-lubrication and if necessary water paper buffing of the disks (1200 grit emery cloth)

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 12:54 pm
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Enigma
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Def-e-nition wrote:
Enigma wrote:
CASTING

So in the converse the longer rod needs more power to be transferred through it to translate to a long cast but then the longer the rod the more energy is translated to the object being cast so if the power of the cast is transferred correctly and efficiently a longer rod will cast further.


hello Craig .
and the Way I started learning This , Was to go an expensive , full circle ....

Long
short
Long

My Next comp rod , will be a 14'6 S6 . i'm so cheesed off i didn't buy The one Moyeni had advertized , I'm still recovering from The Remorse ...!


There comes a point where the balance between your power and style is compromised with the length of a rod and a 6" difference can be the precipice.

I for example cast way further with a 14' rod than a 14'6" rod of the same action.

I prefer fishing rocky areas with a 12'6" rod as I can cast far enough with it and it handles better and pulls harder on the fish.

The bigger the bait the shorter as all the factors discussed above should be accounted for. For that reason that there isn't a one rod for all fishing option, a 16' rod with throw a 5oz with chokka bait further than any 13' rod, given that you are strong enough to swing the 16'.

But a 13' rod will throw a Yellowtail head and 7oz furthern than any 16' rod, unless you look like King Kong and can wind the 16'.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 01:02 pm
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iggy
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Tried to add sum Mana but gave up after the page was still loading after 10min. Thx for the explanation Enigma. I can rule out the guides as my rods have gr8 quality guides R500 to replace 1 guide. The problem I think as you mentioned might be my reels, they not top of the range at all. Will also set my drag a bit more loose from now on till I upgrade to better reels.

Thx

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 01:08 pm
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Enigma
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Now for my actual reason for this post.

Some people have absolutely no idea of what 7kg and 17kg of drag is.

I had a customer in who is obviously the fishing God's gift to mankind.

1. He casts a 12oz from the rocks with a 15' 180m with 0.60mm line and a 1.8mm windon. Which is awe inspiring as he is a 50 something.

2. He locks his Saltiga lever drag at 17kg and within 1 hour with this locked drag exhausts and lands a 180kg Blacktip never once straight sticking as straight sticking is for Pussy's

So in answer to all this I took a pre-set Trinidad 50 from my box and put it on a 13' rod.

I let him try pull the line of the reel by hand to which he commented on how extremely tight the drag was but had to be carbontex.

I then fixed a scale to a harnas on the rod so he could measure the load bearing and see what the load was.

After towing him around for 5 minutes, getting him huffing and puffing and wringing his hands I packed it all away.

7.5kg drag setting preset and measured. 32kg load bearing, no comment other than the rod is a pole (Shark Extreme Heavy) and the drag is super smooth (Carbontex).

He had a look at the load bearing and I explained the load bearing principle and showed him that what he claimed -

15' (4.65m) rod with 650mm grip position with 17kg of drag would mean a load bearing of 100kg + for 1 hour solid??????

I don't want to arm wrestle this guy as at 1.75m and 70kg he must have Genetically enhance muscles.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 01:17 pm
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Dave Batista
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@ Enigma interesting facts but it still baffels me how someone can cast a 12oz with a 1.8mm wind-on and 0.6mm mainline 180m.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 01:29 pm
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Enigma
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Sometimes it's just better to keep quiet help the know it all and hope he doesn't come back. In this case with the Meet is om te Weet approach where he saw the results i think he felt a right idiot and I doubt i'll be seeing him in a while.

I doubt he will make 90m, although he will believe it is 180m.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 01:43 pm
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aquadementia
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Enigma wrote:
Now for my actual reason for this post.

Some people have absolutely no idea of what 7kg and 17kg of drag is.

I had a customer in who is obviously the fishing God's gift to mankind.

1. He casts a 12oz from the rocks with a 15' 180m with 0.60mm line and a 1.8mm windon. Which is awe inspiring as he is a 50 something.

2. He locks his Saltiga lever drag at 17kg and within 1 hour with this locked drag exhausts and lands a 180kg Blacktip never once straight sticking as straight sticking is for Pussy's

So in answer to all this I took a pre-set Trinidad 50 from my box and put it on a 13' rod.

I let him try pull the line of the reel by hand to which he commented on how extremely tight the drag was but had to be carbontex.

I then fixed a scale to a harnas on the rod so he could measure the load bearing and see what the load was.

After towing him around for 5 minutes, getting him huffing and puffing and wringing his hands I packed it all away.

7.5kg drag setting preset and measured. 32kg load bearing, no comment other than the rod is a pole (Shark Extreme Heavy) and the drag is super smooth (Carbontex).

He had a look at the load bearing and I explained the load bearing principle and showed him that what he claimed -

15' (4.65m) rod with 650mm grip position with 17kg of drag would mean a load bearing of 100kg + for 1 hour solid??????

I don't want to arm wrestle this guy as at 1.75m and 70kg he must have Genetically enhance muscles.

wahahahaha that must have shut him up :fbash

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