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Braid to Braided leader, PR Knot  Rating:  Rating
 
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 Posted: Sat May 5th, 2012 10:04 pm
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kitefisher
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Mana: 
Hi guys,just a quick one,has anybody perhaps used a PR knot for joining braid to a braided leader.The two braids in question would be something like 55lb Saltiga boat braid,connected to 150-250lbs Power-pro. I made one or two and initial very unscientific results on a test shows remarkable results.

Anybody please.

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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 09:31 am
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benniejordaan
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Are you using braid as a leader?

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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 09:40 am
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Nepptune
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Alan - As Bennie asks, are you using the heavy braid as a casting leader? I know Dean and Co were doing this in the past, so I'm assuming this is what you are after...

Regarding braid to braid, I don't know that I would trust the PR Knot to be the best as the PR relies on the non stretch braid, compressing and "biting: into the mono for grip and strength.... you might lose this when using braid tyo braid...

PR knot is also a little time consuming, and while can get much quicker and easier with prctise, the reason it is so popular is its strenth, but also its incredibly smooth connection when tying braid to heavy mono leaders....

While 150 to 250lb braid is thick stuff, it doesn't come close to the thickness of 150lb to 240lb Mono, so I wouldn't really seee the need for a PR anyway...

Could you not look at rather a Catspaw type connection? If you stritch a small loop into the end of your mainline braid, and do the same for the heavy braid, ann just catspaw the two together? This is a pretty simple, quick, streamlined and strong connection....

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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 10:32 am
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Simen
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I dont know if this is relevant

but if you want a quick connection with a small knot, simply do a uni to uni or fig 8 to fog 8 on this size braid.

Just do 4 to 5 turns with both and not the usual 2.

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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 10:51 am
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BTTB
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I am no fundi in the braid Department as I am a Multiplier/Nylon man, but according to other guys that I know who use braid on their coffee grinders they find stitching to be the best.
The thickness will play a big part with stitching, thicker into much thinner I suspect may not work?
But from a casting and wear point of view it lasts longer and you don't hear that rattle through the eyes when casting.

Because of the time needed to stitch, it would entail a sitting down in front of TV job.

Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2012 10:55 am by BTTB

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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 07:13 pm
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kitefisher
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Cheers Guys and sorry for late''comeback'',major hassles with work PC.

@Bennie,yes I use 120-200lbs braid as leader,mainly because of terrain where I really need a long,long leader,with the abrasion of Power-pro,which comes in about.50-65mm,give or take.(Fixed spool/Grinder)

@ Simen I will give that a test soon thanks.

@BTTB,now that is a fish in your avatar,I am so gatvol(no pun) of bi-focals and stitching, I cant begin to explain,but thanks a lot.

OK here goes,Dre as you know, nowadays I spin mostly for Yellowtail/Blacktip-Kingfish,and the odd elusive Sard-run- GT on the lower KZN-coast,.I have used the following knots all with success,on different braids but mostly 55lbs Saltiga boat braid.

1)Improved Albright(doubled braid) to a tapered clear Mono T-line leader ,starting at about .55mm of the taper on the .50-80mm taper, and then if I felt I needed more I'd simply add roughly 1 meter of clear 1mm mono(dont like fluoro),using improved Albright again.

2) Improved Allbright to 150-200lbs Power-pro(the one with the slight wax-coating),and then if I feel the fish are finnicky,I may add the 1 meter Clear mono again.

3)Stitched the two together,55lbs-200Lbs and it does cast well,somehow I just dont feel 100% comfortable with the stitch (Its a personal thing,cant really fault the stitch,just dont like the short tassles hanging from either end of the stitch).Also did the same stitch with 80Lbs Boat Braid-200Lbs,and it works.

4) Bear in mind that even if I make whichever knot,I basically need it to be stronger than say 12kg or thereabouts.I can barely hold on to much more than 7kg's of drag(75kg has been,nearly 50,lol),at most have I tapped the drag to what I guess would be 8-10kg's when I see that I'm getting handed my backside.

So I sit here with my champion Jigstarafrica PR Bobbin and I think, let me just give this a try, what the hell.I made the PR using the same 55lbs Boat braid,to the Power pro in 200lbs,which I can make a damn sight quicker than a stitch,only thing I did different from the Mono/Fluoro connection was to not burn the cut-off end, as it poses no cutting the mainline threat.I deliberately left the leader tag about a centimeter long to monitor any possible slippage.Hooked an electronic scale to it and pulled to 15 kg's ,then pulled again and again,and eventually keeping it at 15 kg for about 3-5minutes.Habba breakage,habba slippage,zat, zero, zip,nada,aziko.

Speed in tying it is irrelevant,I fish a Shimano-Twinpower,12000 for which I have a 10 000 spool and the ultimate 16000 Jigging-Master spool from Roy/Andre, with drag beyond comprehension.(Landbased, for me, it will come into its own from a beach where you can dig in and not get pulled off the rocks,or semistraight-sticking,an initial burn at max hold on drag,from the bricks).Spools are pre-rigged with leaders and home made stainless snaps, in case of hidings/breakage,they can be changed within a minute,even before the fish have moved off.

The three spools are rigged 40lbs, 55 Lbs,and 80lbs each roughly 300m-400meters ,and I alternate the use depending on conditions and gut-feel.
p.s I see too many fish hooked and not landed,I personally have a pet-hate with being under-gunned to the detriment of the fish.I use '"lock and hold" for most fish up to about 10-12kg's,depending on footing and terrain.
Terain is as such that if I could use 15meters of leader I would,in fact some guys do on multipliers where knots are a lesser issue(Bimini+2fig8's)

Somebody please make the PR-knot and give your thoughts

::S::S

Sorry for long post.

Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2012 07:18 pm by kitefisher

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 Posted: Mon May 7th, 2012 07:28 pm
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kitefisher
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Mana: 
Just as an afterthought of interest,I have made thousands of casts with any combination of the above without break-offs,(casting from 2-5 oz, mostly 4oz-plugs)but as soon as you cast in a severe cross-wind, the knot becomes vital.This is brought about by the line being blown in a bow between your Grinder and first-guide,even before the leader knot gets to it.As mentioned, into, and with the wind from behind, most knots will play ball,severe cross-winds can be avoided, but it decreases your target-zone.

Last edited on Mon May 7th, 2012 07:30 pm by kitefisher

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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 07:08 am
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kopstamp
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Hi Kitefisher, been making alot of knots on the grinders from 30lbs -130lbs and 50lbs -130lbs, we simply have been using doubled up back to back fig8. I had my doubts initialy... I have tied it to a bench and henged on there and jerked it aswell, but no joy in braking the knot... I trust the PR knot is strong, how long does it take to make?

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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 08:33 am
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kitefisher
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Kopstamp

There are very few knots between leader and braid that I havent tried at some stage or other,be it between braid and mono or braid to braid.I have yet to have one of them fail on a fish (touch wood).Breaking strains even with knots/joins that decrease breaking strain tremendously,are probably still way above the realistic drag-settings that one can handle from uneven rocky terrain.(for myself anyway,maergat,lol).

Most,if not all of them, including the one you mention above casts reasonably well through the guides.(some better than others). Ultimately a seamless transition would be Utopia,and the PR is probably the join,nearest to that.Testing braided knots can be tricky if you do not know the actual(not stated on the label) breaking strain of the braid in question.Some of the best 50lbs braids have  30lbs stated on the label,(e.g Fireline). Whats important to me is how the knot/join lays on the spool,and if it possibly affects overlaying coils of line coming off the spool,and off-course how it reacts in the abovementioned strong cross-wind scenario through the guides. Bearing in mind that this knot/join has to go through the guides roughly 150 times out and hopefully 150 times back through the guides in a morning spin/plug-session and ditto for the afternoon.

ps. Using the Jigging Master bobbin where you can adjust the tension,and that has the correct weight for making a PR,takes no more than 5 minutes after a bit of practice,and having the advantage of multiple spools pre-leadered,helps a lot.

Input appreciated,big time.

@Andre,come on,go make one ,or get Roy to make one,and just check it out.^^..

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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 09:45 am
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Nepptune
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kitefisher wrote:
ps. Using the Jigging Master bobbin where you can adjust the tension,and that has the correct weight for making a PR,takes no more than 5 minutes after a bit of practice,and having the advantage of multiple spools pre-leadered,helps a lot.

Input appreciated,big time.

@Andre,come on,go make one ,or get Roy to make one,and just check it out.^^..


Alan - Those JM Bobbins really are amazing tools, and make the PR knot tying sooooo much easier, and agruably, more consistant as well!

 

I'll give it a test run mate, for sure, I like your " uit die ****" thinking, certainly the first I've heard of using the PR for a braid to braid connection....

 

I'm mostly using JB hollowcore these days, so splicing loops to join twisties, or windons takes less than 30 seconds at most, so not really bothering with stitching these days, except in some of the lighter braids I've got.... but will certainly give it a test run for you.... off to Linene next week, dunno if I'm willing to test it on fish just yet, but will see how it goes!

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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 10:30 am
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kitefisher
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Alan - Those JM Bobbins really are amazing tools, and make the PR knot tying sooooo much easier, and agruably, more consistant as well! 



Andre,its a toss-up between just sitting and staring at my JM 16 000 spool and the JM-bobbin,both sheer things of beauty,I can understand why yourself and Roy are so lyrical about them.Must say the service from Linda was excellent as well. I liked the way that the 55lbs Saltiga BB also bit into the Gel/wax coated Power-pro,much like the concept when tying mono leader to braid using PR. I unravelled one or two, and the ''bite-marks'' are very distinct.

Maybe I'm going nowhere with this,and I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel,but I dont want to fight a fish back for 120meters,and then get cut-off 5-10meters from my feet,because of terrain.(I see it happen too often) The Power-pro have withstood the abrasion test already,just need a long enough length (10-12meters) and for it to tow my braid out seamlessly.

Cheers

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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 10:54 am
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kopstamp
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HI Kitefisher- are you using the black powerpro? If so that stuff is deadly!
I get what you are saying in terms of knots hittng guides and how it sits on the spool...saw it on the weekend what a nuisance a knot can be for repeated casting...

If I may ask what guides are you using on the spinning stick?

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 Posted: Tue May 8th, 2012 11:26 am
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kitefisher
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Kopstamp I use a slightly modified Shimano Tiralejo 12'' 2 piece . Fuji,Braid friendly guides starting at 40 mm inside dia, 30,25,20 16 12 12  Tip 10. Rod rated up to 80lbs braid, casting weight up to 10 oz,most comfortable with 4 oz for prolonged casting.

Power,pro is really tough ,normally braid would only have the same abrasion as its counterpart in mono of similar diameter(not breaking-strain),diameter.With Power-pro, the odds increase exponentially.

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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 07:14 am
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kopstamp
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Kitefisher- Ok, IMHO your guides is the problem, not your knots so much, having seen and felt the difference k-series low rider guides make, I would strongly recommend getting some.

Although the first few guides has "smaller" ID than what you are using now, they just work, and the add distance to your cast.

When Mike Pautz built a new rod for his wife, I suggested it to him, he gave me a funny look, but agreed, one cast and now even his grinder rods are built this way.

We tie 50lbs- 130lbs-anything from .70-1mm nylon and there is no noise or knots hitting guides,

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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 08:12 am
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Enigma
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Kopstamp, I've never sent you K series, he built Concept Lo Riders onto Rene's rod.

K Series better suited to ligher braid setups.

I've been using the normal "Spyker Knot" on the braid to braid connections with pretty great strengths maintained, I turn the 130lbs leader 3 times around the 50lbs double.

As rod builder I would rather recommend a #12 tip guide instead of stepping it down to #10. With #12 minimum guides I've had guys casting 200lbs hollowcore to 50lbs mainline without problems.

If you have quality guides ie.... Fuji or Alps even a 1mm knotted nylon wouldn't threaten the Guide rings

Nepps the R&S guys are using these connections, not so much popping and jigging and then from the last guide they have a 1m nylon leader for protection. The havy leade is for throwing a 6oz and yellowtail head and to give a thicker line for leadering the fish from the rocks as you're invariably a lot further than the fish than from a boat.

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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 01:56 pm
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kitefisher
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Mana: 
Thanks for all the info guys.Let me just recap briefly,I dont have a problem per-se with braid to leader connection,most if not all the knots that you mention have been tried and tested by many anglers.

They all work ,but none of them can counter the bow of line coming off a grinder spool between reel and first guide,when casting in a severe cross-wind,and I mean severe cross-wind.(completely different from a multiplier)

.Each and every one of them(because of the severe cross-wind), will be approaching the first guide ,irrespective of that guide's distance away from reel,or the diameter of that guide,at a precarious angle,which could possibly lead to that piece of line where it gets thicker due to ANY knot,to hit that guide side-on.Obviously it will be enhanced depending on your knot-size,and leader-length,but lets say 7-10 wraps, around the spool, minimum,preferably more.Leader-length necessary for specific terrain.

I have an arsenal of knots that work most of the time,just searching for the ultimate,will do further tests with the B2B-PR.Bear in mind that at present I am specifically looking at using Power-pro leader with the slight wax-coating, which helps with the PR-bite.

Thanks for very valuable input so far,keep it coming.

 

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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 05:30 pm
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Enigma
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Fuji have long since designed rod components to address your concerns.

The Concept lo rider was specifically designed for this and specifically for medium to heavy and ultra heavy braid work.

The reversed 1st guide on the high frame prevents the leader connection going into the gap between ring and double foot. this was specifically designed and developed on Ultra heavy popping applications because when an 8oz popper is nailed on a popping rod and the 130lbs leader connection or windknot or guide wrap occurs in the "CROSS WIND", the leader doesn't break, the guide doesn't break, the rod does and a R10k Carpenter and a remote fishing trip is destroyed.

Following this and the further move to super lines with lower and lower diameters which have different characteristics to monofilament the K Series anti fouling guides - here's a video of how it works:








Although this one is in Japanese watching the Video will show how it works and why the advantage. the cameras are filming the line and braid flow to and through the guides at 20,000 frames per second


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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 07:19 pm
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kitefisher
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Sorry Craig, only see a white square,will try from work pc tomorrow.Again,guys the purpose of the post was merely to get somebody else to just try a +- 50lbs braid, to Power-pro 100-200lbs, leader PR-Knot.

I have 5 or 6 Tiralejo's some in different lengths and configurations,spin and multiplier, and ranging from 9foot to 12foot ,some of them the casting models, as opposed to spinning ones,have the Fuji,""'what looks like a lo-rider-guides on""=LC guide for braided lines I think they're called.
None of this changes the fact that I want your opinion on a knot,Come on Craig,you've tested many knots before^^..
Guide pic similar to one of my 12 footers.

Attachment: shimano_tiralejo_surf_rods.jpg (Downloaded 799 times)

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 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2012 08:12 pm
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Enigma
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I use the Spyker knot for leader from the reel application and tie 100 and 130lbs hollow core to 30lbs and 50lbs

I seldom for shore fishing applications fish above 30lbs Jerry Brown = 43lbs Tensile strength this would be equivalent to 0.60mm mono and is plenty plenty strong and gives great casting distances

I have used the Jerry Brown knot with great success and it's my go to knot with Nylon leader. I use a full length nylon leader up to 0.80mm with the Bob Sands knot as it makes a lovely taper that runs through the guides.

If and when I use 130lbs braid as leader then I use a bob Sands to the nylon end (1.5mm mono) and then:

With JB Hollow core I use a Bob Sands which I close down carefully and with the Hollow core as smooth as it is the knot is great

Solid braid to solid braid I use a 3 turn uni in heavy braid and 5 turn uni in the lighter braid but this takes 50lbs to below 30lbs but you don't us mainline but rather the leader or sinker when snagging

To get 100% connection I stitch a loop in the solid braid 3-5cm loop and then connect to the thicker braid with a "Spyker Knot" and the connection is guaranteed 100% tensile strength of the thinner braid. Small, streamline and secure and casts like a dream.

I still maintain that your concerns in terms of line wrap and knot on the guides is adequately addressed by the Fuji corporations design of the new Concept Casting Guides.

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 Posted: Thu May 10th, 2012 06:36 am
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kitefisher
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Mana: 
Craigo,   ::S,much obliged for your efforts,really impressive what these designers put into technology,which we sometimes just take for granted.

I suspect that some of that tecno have gone into the Tiralejo range,as I cannot recall once that I had a windknot on my mainline braid,it could well be because of the line-lay anti-twist ,anti whatever design of the Twinpower range of reels.(basically a Stella,bar a bearing or two),and a few Bob cheaper.I recall only one set-up which was on a 9 footer coupled to a Ultegra 5500 and HMP-braid,in all fairness I think the 1-1.5oz lures/plugs, being very light, could have played a role.

Of all the options you mention,The Stitched loop and Spyker-knot may be the one that I will give a go,(Just hate stitching,because of eyesight), if my PR B2B does not withstand the test.

For what its worth: on one trip I counted 1640 casts, tangle-free,before I got the first catch on the original Doubled mainline 55lbs Saltiga Bbraid to 55kg Power-pro leader made with an Improved Albright.So windknots in mainline aint my problem, its that one in a million leader-knot break.

Go forth now ,and make a PR connection b2b.::S

Thanks for wealth of info Craig.

 

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