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Do You Believe In Other Life Form's Out Side This Planet?
   
   
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Glenn
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Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
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Mana: 
A decade ago, my question about ET (extra-terrestrial) would have been greeted with nervous laughter, curling toes or embarrassed silence. Perhaps even a contemptuous sneer.

So it was extraordinary to find myself sitting before a respected huddle of planet hunters with the Government's Science Minister, Malcolm Wicks, last week as they declared they believe in aliens.

Seven leading British astronomers were briefing the minister in a session entitled "Is there life out there? - Other Earth-like or habitable planets" in the bowels of the Department of Trade and Industry, when I put to them two questions: is there alien life?

And if there is, do you think it is intelligent?

Until recently, the assembled scientists would (quite rightly) have pointed out that there is no universally accepted definition of life, let alone of intelligence. Any talk of smart extraterrestrials belonged in science fiction.

Today, our understanding of the cosmos has changed so much that for the first time searching for signs of life in other solar systems is not just a philosopher's dream but on the list of planned human endeavours. All the scientists I questioned agreed that alien life is inevitable and ubiquitous.

And all but one believe it could be intelligent - ie with the faculty of reasoning and understanding

Some even think we will find some form of life on our doorstep. Prof John Zarnecki of The Open University bullishly told the minister: "My position is very simple. We will find extinct or some life in the solar system."

He believes primitive bugs, or their remains, will be found in 2015 when a European Space Agency mission will land on Mars to dig into its dusty red surface.

After all, once upon a time Mars was a warmer, wetter and more comfortable place. And he has high hopes for a future mission to the icy moon Europa, the heart of which is warmed by tidal forces as it orbits Jupiter. "We shall find life on Europa in 2023," he told us with determination.

Why so confident? Our own planet proves that life can flourish quickly. The first creatures evolved on primordial Earth with indecent haste, only half a billion years or so after its birth 4.5 billion years ago, and microbes have now been found in the most inhospitable nooks and crannies, able to dine on wet rock or thrive without sunshine.

This prompted Dr Ian Stevens of the University of Birmingham to speculate that other planets must support life, too: "My guess is life is common out there." But it is the discovery of almost 300 worlds orbiting distant stars that has excited experts the most.

Their rising confidence that the conditions might exist somewhere for the development of intelligent alien life comes from their conviction that they will find many Earth-like planets that are in what they call the "Goldilocks zone" (where conditions on the planet are not too hot and not too cold but "just right", so that liquid water is present and life could evolve).

There are formidable challenges facing planet hunters given the vastness of our cosmos.

The most distant man-made object is Voyager 1, launched 30 years ago and now around 10 billion miles away.

While it takes light a day to travel from the aged probe to Earth, the glow of the nearest star takes four years, while the light from most stars we can see at night takes hundreds, or even thousands of years to reach us.

Spotting a planet in orbit around these points of light is a daunting task, likened to detecting the glow of a lighthouse keeper's cigarette from miles away when the beam of his lighthouse is shining directly at you.

But in 1992, scientists realised that it was possible to find distant worlds when Alexander Wolszczan of Pennsylvania State University found a planet orbiting a neutron star (the remnant of a stellar explosion).

Of all the places that astronomers expected to find alien planets, this was not one of them.

"It was a ridiculous place to have a planet," said Dr Stevens. "But it was there." Three years later, a team working at the Geneva Observatory in Switzerland made headlines worldwide when they found something like our own solar system, a planet orbiting an alien sun called 51 Pegasi.

Planet hunters rely on measurements of exquisite precision to find alien worlds.

They search for the minute effects of an orbiting body on its parent star - a drop in brightness as the planet passes in front (the transit method), or a tiny shift in starlight, caused by a wobble in the star's position as it is tugged by the gravitational pull of its planet. The effects are subtle: our own Sun moves at a baby's crawl in response to the gravity of the Earth as it zips around at 67,000 miles per hour.

The CoRot (pronounced "Coreau'') mission blasted off last December carrying the first telescope capable of finding rocky planets only a few times the size of the Earth around sun-like stars using the transit method.

To detect such a planet, the one-foot telescope would have to register a tiny dimming lasting a few hours, every time the planet goes around the star, said Dr Suzanne Aigrain of the University of Exeter. It will take more sophisticated space telescopes (planned in the next decade) to reveal an Earth-like twin with oxygen and liquid water, but CoRot is expected to show where to look for one within months.

In about 15 years, a European Space Agency mission called Darwin will send a flotilla of telescopes above our turbulent atmosphere to scan 500 stars within a distance of 60 light years from us, then study 50 alien planets to seek signs of life, in the form of bacteria, plants or animals.

Prof Glenn White, of The Open University and Rutherford Appleton lab, said: "We are pretty sure that we will have an extremely high probability of telling you whether life has started on a planet. By around 2020 we will have very definitive answers."

Dr Michael Perryman, of the European Space Agency, added that even now it is possible to analyse light from an alien planet, "which is staggering".

Seeing abundant oxygen would be encouraging, since oxygen reacts rapidly and gets destroyed. If found with other gases, notably ozone, nitrous oxide and methane, it would suggest a "biosphere" teeming with creatures. Although he was the only scientist present who doubted there was intelligent alien life, arguing that Earth's circumstances are too special to be replicated, Dr Perryman said he would not be surprised if biologists soon reported signatures that hinted at habitable planets.

What kind of life do we expect? The smart money is on most aliens being microbes.

But no one can rule out the possibility of higher life forms.

Or that they could thrive in pools of liquid methane, on dry dusty worlds, be silicon based, or even waft about as organised clouds. What should we do if we detect a message from an alien? "This will have profound consequences for how we see ourselves," says Prof Keith Mason, chief executive, Science and Technology Facilities Council.

The news will not reach the public until a process of verification and approval is exhausted, in the best tradition of earthly bureaucracy.

Leaks to the press seem likely, given the Byzantine notification process in the 1989 "Declaration of Principles Concerning Activities Following the Detection of Extraterrestrial Intelligence". But all this talk of what we will do is very one sided. Dr Perryman told the minister that aliens could now be eavesdropping on our radio and television. "As from 1927, we have been propagating outwards from Earth, a very specific indicator of our existence.

" These radio waves have since travelled 80 light years out into the universe.

"That is going to encompass many hundreds of potentially habitable planets," he said. "If there is intelligent life out there, they sure as hell know we are here."

MichaelK
Sealiner


Joined: Tue Mar 25th, 2008
Location: Durban, South Africa
Posts: 1934
Equipment: Daiwa BG 8000, posidon rods
Best Catch: Couta, Wahoo, Sailfish, GT, YFT
Favorite Fishing Spot: The sea
Boat: Cobra Cat 525 with 2 x 90hp Yamaha
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Mana: 
UFO sightings on the bluff last week, reports indicate red lights hovering near the old whaling station and 3 slim figures seen reported walking up the dunes.

A woman also reports having her car cut out when 3 figures walked into the middle of the road, apparently her cell phone went dead aswell and the car and cell phone only worked again when the 3 tall slim figures dressed in over coats walked into the bush near the arm base.

This is a true story google it or check ECR news archives.

As far as i'm concerned, these bluff okkies where probably goofed on wacky weed.

Glenn
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
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Mana: 
someone always has to spoil it for me! :cry1

Last edited on Sun Apr 25th, 2010 07:10 pm by Glenn

tuna
Sealiner


Joined: Wed Feb 27th, 2008
Location: George, South Africa
Posts: 5785
Equipment: Double x line. Berkley braid,Colgate Dental floss for windon leader ...
Best Catch: Double x line. Berkley braid,Colgate Dental floss for windon leader ...Bronze of 413kg, Raggie 486kg, Spotty 40kg,Tigerfish 44.5kg Groot kurper ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: Namibia and Robberg point, visdammetjie by die huis
Boat: no boat!... got a lilo at home
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UFO on the Bluff, too much Durban poison if you ask me

Glenn
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
Club: The Glenn You Can Kiss My Ass Club!
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Mana: 
I believe in essence, that ANYTHING is possible.. You don't really think that we are the ONLY species in the world? There are so so many thing's undiscovered by man alone.. so many animal's and insects.. flower's.. etc.. what make's another life form any different? I'm open minded about other form's of life.. Wether it be to complicated of thought and mind.

Do you belive in God? well then..ask yourself on other aspects of life .

@ Tuna

Talking of the area you mentioned, you may be right there! :lol:1

Simen
Administrator


Joined: Wed Jun 13th, 2007
Location: Swakopmund, Namibia
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My philosophy

if you don't believe there isn't life on other planets you don't believe in life itself.

Glenn
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Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
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Simen wrote: My philosophy

if you don't believe there isn't life on other planets you don't believe in life itself.

Dido! Well said Simen.  :clap12:clap12:clap12:clap12

fedu
Sealiner


Joined: Sat Jan 31st, 2009
Location: Luanda, Angola
Posts: 1985
Equipment: too many rods to list...
Best Catch: 40Kg kob, 23Kg Dorado, 25Kg Grouper, 30Kg Amberjack, 33Kg Bass
Favorite Fishing Spot: Lucira in Namibe south of Angola, Soyo
Boat: 35 ft Triton Express
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Mana: 
Statistically it's impossible that life does not exist anywhere else.

Simen
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Joined: Wed Jun 13th, 2007
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Ok, let me explain why I believe there has to be life somewhere else, where that somewhere else is I dont know, so my somewhere is not on our planet earth.

I am going to give 2 reasons, one being a scientific reasoning, the other being a religious reasoning. ( please guys my religious argument is not to influence or argue with any other person regardless his religion)

Scientific reason.

We (people on earth) have created the strongest telescope we are currently capable of creating, but it is a known fact that it still cannot see as far as the universe stretches. I am not just saying this, it is a known fact.

Just to simplify the explanation lets say the moon is 10 000km from earth. Our current strongest telescope can see to the moon. So we look up to the moon and say we cant see any life there, so lets except there's no life.

The next week we build a space ship that can fly to the moon. BUT now we load our telescope on it and erect it on the moon. Once on the moon we can now look 10 000 km further into the universe.  Next week we move to --- and to--- and so on.

UNTIL we have not seen and explored the furthest piece of universe how can we say there is no life out there.

Religious reason.

I was brought up believing that God created the earth and everything on it.

So I should think we all have to admit that God is a mighty powerful "Guy" to do all this.

Again for simplifying the argument, lets say the earth as we know it is only 10 000years old.

Now the big question.

If God created earth 10 000years ago, what did he so to speak do 11000 years ago?

A Being with that strength and capability, wont just wake up one morning and say "Today I am creating the earth"

The question again arises, where was God before he created earth. the Bible says he was always there.

Now the question arises WHERE IS THERE??

Fanie
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Joined: Thu Feb 14th, 2008
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Mana: 
Somewhere in the Bibel it is said that creatures from outer space was here and they found our wiemen attractive - which is probably where you and I come from ;-) Seriously, look it up. There are also mentioned in the Bibel of prehistoric animals and of giants. There are also things about the piramids not figured out to date, which was speculated to be influences from ET's.

As for life on other planets, it may not be in the form we expect it to be. They may even be spirits or even exist as 'gasses', no one really knows yet. Of course the ultimate would be to find the planet full of beautifull nekked wieman that brew beer and absolutely loves fishing.

There may even exist another earth in a parallel with our's, which means you may come face to face with your own identical replica. Although just speculation and theories, there are many testimonies of people who claims what they saw is waht they saw and experienced.

Maybe they look like us, or similar, hopefully they have more advanced technologies and better transport. It sucks driving like we have to to get to fishing spots.

This is only an animation, someone's imagination at work, but may well exist elsewhere - you're going to love this !

http://www.spike.com/video/rockfish/2650473


Amazingly how rediculously small earth is wrt everything else out there.

Now the question arises WHERE IS THERE??
Never mind that, how big is Heaven going to be if every one ever existed is going there !

They claim that black holes is the way one can travel almost instantaniously from one place in space to another. One has to keep in mind our reference blocks are extremely limited to discrete things we can see and touch, and out minds are limited to only two dimentional thinking with depth, but if we are confronted with a 3D problem, our minds fall off the log. Just that little insight is what stands between man and genius, it may mean using a little bit more of the almost nothing we use of our brains currently.

Man's limited brain use so by design, or on purpose ?

Fanie
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Joined: Thu Feb 14th, 2008
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Posts: 5843
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Mana: 
Then of course there is the matter of 'time', a substance invented by the English.

We reference 'time' in terms of a simple rotation around the sun and the moon around us which gives us days and years - but is there a 'bigger rotation' somewhere, where time doesn't exist, they claim at the speed of light time would stand still, but would it.

If ET's do exist in other places, would they live longer because they 'travel' faster through space than we do ? It may well be possible to travel from one galaxy to another in a split second where you won't age, but back on earth many many thousands of years may go by. So time could be a very relative term.

Then there's the matter of reincarnation. We all know that Rembrandt was a painter once, and today he's a cigerette, but who says you haven't lived before in another time.

So many things eh.

Ian F
Senior Member
 

Joined: Thu Dec 28th, 2006
Location: Gauteng, South Africa
Posts: 270
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I find it amazing, that since the advent of digital cameras, digital video cameras, and cameras on cell phones, the number of UFO sightings, and blurry photographs of UFOs  has dropped dramatically.

Surely with all the new technology, there should be more photos???

Ian F the sceptic

 

Simen
Administrator


Joined: Wed Jun 13th, 2007
Location: Swakopmund, Namibia
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Ian F wrote: I find it amazing, that since the advent of digital cameras, digital video cameras, and cameras on cell phones, the number of UFO sightings, and blurry photographs of UFOs  has dropped dramatically.

Surely with all the new technology, there should be more photos???

Ian F the sceptic

 


Ian F-- here I have to agree with you, however i would like to mention one example.

A couple of years ago a UFO was reported to have landed near a school  ( primary) in Zimbabwe.

it was reported that the aliens actually climbed out of the UFO and was outside for a couple of minutes.

As usual first on the scene was the guys from the good old US of A.

They questioned all the kids that saw the UFO and alien "people" and asked the kids to make a drawing.  (REMEMBER THESE ARE PRIMARY SCHOOL KIDS).

The found that all the kids questioned stories matched so close that it could not have been a pre-manufactured story to get publicity.

Also the drawings made by the kids where so close that even there no fabrication was found.

THEN as usual---- And this is the part that I dont understand-

All of an American sudden ( which is faster than a ZIMBABWEAN sudden) the school is reallocated, the children and their homes reallocated etc,etc.

Rosswell,  area 52 USA --same story UFO is said to have crashed there-- Go try and find the people that lived there--NIKS, NADA, NOTHING. After the US army was there the inhabitants vanished into thin air.

WHAT ARE THEY HIDING, COVERING UP??????

Ian F
Senior Member
 

Joined: Thu Dec 28th, 2006
Location: Gauteng, South Africa
Posts: 270
Equipment: Daiwa Sealine 50, Daiwa Saltiga 50, Assassin medium, Berkley extra ...
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Mana: 
The 1st thing you learn about urban legends (I get tons of these emails across my desk), is that they NEVER have a valid contact name or number or address at the bottom of the story. If they do happen to have one, and you do happen to check, the turn out to be false.

So, for me, if I cannot speak to the person 1st hand, the person it ACTUALLY happened to, the the story has no credibility.

Vist the http://www.snopes.com website to see how many stories are doing the rounds.

sparticus
Senior Member


Joined: Mon Mar 26th, 2007
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 1335
Equipment: T53 Trini 30
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Favorite Fishing Spot: Aniston , Strandfontein and Langbeaan
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Mana: 
Off course Aliens exist !! Where do u think Julius comes from ?

JustPlainSHARK
Freshwater Moderator


Joined: Fri Dec 18th, 2009
Location: Mosselbaai, South Africa
Posts: 1039
Equipment: Feeder fishing gear. Daiwa, Shimano reels. Preston rods
Best Catch: 60kg Diamond Ray, 17kg Cow shark
Favorite Fishing Spot:  Klipdrift, Vaal, Brandvlei
Boat: Had one bathtime when I was five years old.
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Mana: 
They do exist! Check out all the illegal ones right here in SA ::S

little-hobo
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Joined: Fri Mar 9th, 2007
Location: Jhb , Gauteng, South Africa
Posts: 512
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Best Catch: Edible : 3.5kg Grunter , Non-Ed:+-35kg blue ray
Favorite Fishing Spot: Bay of Plenty , Durban Harbour
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Mana: 
Here's something to think abt.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:(KJV)

Look at the word REPLENISH , in order for something to be replenished , it had to be plenished (filled before)...right??

So if adam and eve had to replenish the earth then the question is who inhabited the earth 1st??

Ever wondered what happened to the fallen angels. See when 1/3 of angels that was kicked out of heaven some of them where allowed to stay on earth as spirit beings ,till the coming of the Lord and then finally all of them will be cast in the lake of fire.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

Then we wonder why ppl get demon possessed.
These spirits roam the earth looking for a body to possess so that they can fulfill their needs and desires.

Ever asked yourself how can a person be drunk 24/7?

How can someone be addicted to gambling when in his right mind he knows he cant provide basic needs for his family yet as soon as he gets paid he's off the casino??

What drives ppl to do that? Is it the person themselves or "something" driving them to do it?

Theres lots of things we have no clue abt that goes on in the spiritual realm and we call it "alien invasion"

L-H

Glenn
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Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
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Mana: 
JustPlainSHARK wrote: They do exist! Check out all the illegal ones right here in SA ::S

 

oO( O no.. I can see where this tread is heading towards)

Fanie
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Joined: Thu Feb 14th, 2008
Location: Centurion
Posts: 5843
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Mana: 
If you look at the size of the earth, and the size of our sun system, then it is minutely minute compared to what is out there. We have not yet see a fraction of a fraction of what is out there. This taken into consideration, then there is more than likely to be a lot of life out there. If the stars are as plentifull as the sand in the sea, how big are we any way. Just pick one grain of sand, imagine it's earth, then compare it with the rest that is out there.

oomfaan
Senior Member


Joined: Thu Dec 24th, 2009
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Mana: 
What really concerns me is the message that we are sending out into the universe. All the television broadcasting which includes violence, pornography, even WWE wrestling. What must the aliens think of us? No wonder they don't want to come visit us... ::S

Fanie
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Joined: Thu Feb 14th, 2008
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Mana: 
OomFaan, hulle gaan dink dis 'n helse lekker plek, kyk net hoe jollie gaan dit daar. Pornografie is darrem so 'n lelike woord. Ons noem hulle die arm tannies, hulle kan nie klere bekostig nie. Nou ek het dit nog nie self gesien nie, maar ek het gehoor.... ;-)

Glenn
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Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
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Posts: 2896
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Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
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Mana: 
Fanie wrote: OomFaan, hulle gaan dink dis 'n helse lekker plek, kyk net hoe jollie gaan dit daar. Pornografie is darrem so 'n lelike woord. Ons noem hulle die arm tannies, hulle kan nie klere bekostig nie. Nou ek het dit nog nie self gesien nie, maar ek het gehoor.... ;-)

@ Fanie

But it's not a nice place now! And it's getting worse day by day.. All you have to look is at the age of 'Girl's' in UK getting pregnant at the age of 13 now.. Under age sex is a MAJOR problem now.. Alchol abuse by kids & drug's.. This all stem's to the 'Goverment' attitude toward's kid's now aday's etc. *YOU MUST NOT TOUCH YOUR KID*

Television broadcast's.. You wanna see what I see on TV over here? It's shamefull.. We can stamp all this K@K out before it's to late? If And when I have a kid.. It wont be raised in the UK!! NO WAY SIR RE....

And when you talk about 'PORN' These so called Ladie's have there head's well screwed on! There is NOTHING POOR about them..Alot of the programme's now are 'PORN' related.. and still young kid's manage to see these.. It's exceptable now to see a girl on tv just with bra and brief's????

Also there's more violent scene's which can put idea's in young one's mind's and think it's cool to be tough and smart, when in essence it's not the right thing to do?

Infact it get's much worse than that.. When all the head the ball's and nut cases that are out there.. see thing's on TV..It make's them EVEN worse than they are already are & completly put's them off the rail's going on killing spree's and goodness know's what else.

Back to the point of tread.. You have good point's fanie!.. But life as we know it.. we are only programm'd to know what other's know?? Get what I mean?

So in theory there has to be OTHER LIFE FORMS out there! If we where the ONLY race in world.. God hasn't finnished his job of creation.

Fanie
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Glen, the key with everything in life is balance. If you say something is not right, remenber the answer to why it is wrong is important. Ie, you cannot tell children they are too young, that is not an answer ! Anyway, never stop doing the right thing. Every bit adds up.

As for the creation, nothing says we aren't a small part of something very much bigger !

MichaelK
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oomfaan wrote: What really concerns me is the message that we are sending out into the universe. All the television broadcasting which includes violence, pornography, even WWE wrestling. What must the aliens think of us? No wonder they don't want to come visit us... ::S


Oomfaan, don't stress to much boeta. They have ray guns and can teleport around :fbash . Its our politicians that you should worry about, with Uncle Julius Malema preaching the K@K he does soon they may just blast our little eath with a death ray and we will all be ash ou mate.^^..

 

 

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MichaelK wrote: oomfaan wrote: What really concerns me is the message that we are sending out into the universe. All the television broadcasting which includes violence, pornography, even WWE wrestling. What must the aliens think of us? No wonder they don't want to come visit us... ::S


Oomfaan, don't stress to much boeta. They have ray guns and can teleport around :fbash . Its our politicians that you should worry about, with Uncle Julius Malema preaching the K@K he does soon they may just blast our little eath with a death ray and we will all be ash ou mate.^^..

 

 

With all due respect.. What has Julius Malema got to do with Aliens do really exist??? :lol:1

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After today I'm convinced more than ever there's life out there. Went shopping with the wife this morning and she insisted we get the movie Avatar. I even checked it a second time. The only problem I saw there was lots of vicious animals and nothing on fish. Limited imagination :-o

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Fanie wrote: After today I'm convinced more than ever there's life out there. Went shopping with the wife this morning and she insisted we get the movie Avatar. I even checked it a second time. The only problem I saw there was lots of vicious animals and nothing on fish. Limited imagination :-o

Fanie, Imagination is everything! .. It is the preview of life's coming attraction's. ::S

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Simen wrote: My philosophy

if you don't believe there isn't life on other planets you don't believe in life itself.


@ Simen

I was watching 'Discovery Channel' last night and seen coming soon.. 9thMay  'Stephen HawKing' and 'Alien's do exist'!! The clip said this ..

Alien life, Is almost certain to exist in many other parts of the universe: not just in planets, but perhaps in the centre of stars or even floating in interplanetary space.

Hawking’s logic on aliens is, for him, unusually simple. The universe, he points out, has 100 billion galaxies, each containing hundreds of millions of stars. In such a big place, Earth is unlikely to be the ONLY PLANET where life has evolved.

I do know we are ahead of you guy's on programme's.. meaning when 'Shark Men' where ONLY starting with you guy's .. I had watched about 8 episodes already. So I will keep you informed about this programme.

I do suggest.. Guy's who 'Chuckle' & dont believe so to speak at this 'Fact' and what is being discussed on this 'tread' I strongly suggest you watch this series.


Last edited on Thu Apr 29th, 2010 12:54 pm by Glenn

Chris Shelton
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All speculation! This scientist believes this and that scientist believes that....but nobody has concrete proof or evidence of anything out there.

I try not to get hung up on these things, fact is, we exist, and that's all that matters in the greater scheme of things. But having said this, i'd like to leave you with the following to ponder on; If you truly believe in God, then you have to believe what is written in His Word....and this is what HE says!

Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 9 - 11;
'And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into ONE place, and let the dry land appear:

'And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.'

So then, if you believe that, then while there may well have been life on other planets before the so called gathering of the waters, which is now called Seas....then you have to believe that with this gathering of ALL the waters under the heaven, that all life was relocated to Earth!

So, believing this with my whole heart, I have just justified my belief that there is no life out there....which is already far more than any believer in aliens can do!

Last edited on Thu Apr 29th, 2010 01:52 pm by Chris Shelton

Simen
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Chris Shelton wrote: All speculation! This scientist believes this and that scientist believes that....but nobody has concrete proof or evidence of anything out there.

I try not to get hung up on these things, fact is, we exist, and that's all that matters in the greater scheme of things. But having said this, i'd like to leave you with the following to ponder on; If you truly believe in God, then you have to believe what is written in His Word....and this is what HE says!

Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 9 - 11;
'And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into ONE place, and let the dry land appear:

'And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.'

So then, if you believe that, then while there may well have been life on other planets before the so called gathering of the waters, which is now called Seas....then you have to believe that with this gathering of ALL the waters under the heaven, that all life was relocated to Earth!

So, believing this with my whole heart,my belief t I have just justified hat there is no life out there....which is already far more than any believer in aliens can do!


Chris good argument, I am going to make a statement now but before I do it I just want to state so there is no misconception.

I believe in God and the Bible.

Now having said that and looking at your ( see your post in-- red ) We all myself included believe in "Something" none of us has seen either.

I believe on both accounts and on both accounts I have not seen.

(Just a comparison, not an argument)

Chris Shelton
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Simen wrote: Chris Shelton wrote: All speculation! This scientist believes this and that scientist believes that....but nobody has concrete proof or evidence of anything out there.

I try not to get hung up on these things, fact is, we exist, and that's all that matters in the greater scheme of things. But having said this, i'd like to leave you with the following to ponder on; If you truly believe in God, then you have to believe what is written in His Word....and this is what HE says!

Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 9 - 11;
'And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into ONE place, and let the dry land appear:

'And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.'

So then, if you believe that, then while there may well have been life on other planets before the so called gathering of the waters, which is now called Seas....then you have to believe that with this gathering of ALL the waters under the heaven, that all life was relocated to Earth!

So, believing this with my whole heart,my belief t I have just justified hat there is no life out there....which is already far more than any believer in aliens can do!


Chris good argument, I am going to make a statement now but before I do it I just want to state so there is no misconception.

I believe in God and the Bible.

Now having said that and looking at your ( see your post in-- red ) We all myself included believe in "Something" none of us has seen either.

I believe on both accounts and on both accounts I have not seen.

(Just a comparison, not an argument)

Fair comment Simen. You just believe in a little bit more than I do then. I'll accept that! :::S

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OK...

WE all believe in GOD.. Who we can not see nor have seen, but we believe in because of 'Trust' OR what EVER OTHER reason it may be.. GOD is spirtual?? In different 'Forms' and does not travel in time as time is not the essence cause to god 1 day in his life would merely be possibly 1000 year's in ones life (Our lives)

Believe in god, then you MUST believe in other 'Spirtual' possible thing's.. Man has not discovered even a Fraction of the world.. It's merely only the 'Tip'

Alien's are so they call them..'Spirtual beings' could me amoung us.. we don't know just like we don't know God??

You dont believe in 'Spirtual beings' Aliens?? Then forget about God.. because that's who made all thing's!

Chris Shelton
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Oh, so 'Spiritual beings' are now arriving in space ships!!? Are the spaceships spiritual too?
Hey boet...gotto get me some of that stuff you're smoking....maybe it will become so much clearer to me! ;)

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Chris Shelton wrote: Oh, so 'Spiritual beings' are now arriving in space ships!!? Are the spaceships spiritual too?
Hey boet...gotto get me some of that stuff you're smoking....maybe it will become so much clearer to me! ;)


'Spirtual beings' as in another life form and different than in the 'Human Race'

Not sure about the 'Spaceship' era .. that's far to fetched for me!

Firstly I dont smoke.. secondly 'mug's are for drug's' ::S

Is my answer any clearer for you now??  :alien

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er...not at all! Since when is something that is 'spiritual' a 'life form'? 'Spirit' is just that bru...'spirit', no molecular structure, no DNA, no nothing!....BOOOOO, seen any ghosts lately!!!? :)

Ray Hall
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a ghost ones pissed in my friend's toilet!!!! serious no jokes!!!!

he was just staning there just going about his business...

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Maybe I'm not taking enough drug's here for you Chris :doh

Please do me a huge favour.. When 'Stephen Hawking' series Air's on Discovery on yourside. watch it??
I think it will be very interesting to see?? (Even if you believe it or not)

Either the guy in the wheel chair (Stephen Hawking) Number 1 scientist in the world has gone completly mad and has lost the plot.. Or we are just so blind and stupid to believe in what he say's.

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:SSS

Last edited on Thu Apr 29th, 2010 03:55 pm by Ray Hall

Chris Shelton
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Extremely intelligent guy he is, that I don't dispute, but he's not God!

Now getting back to God, I firmly believe that the Earth and all it's inhabitants, past, present and future were part of God's MASTER PLAN! Now i can't explain why i say this without getting all religious, so suffice to say, if Earth indeed was his master plan, why would he bother trying to sustain life on other planets? He has enough on His hands already!!! ;)

Last edited on Thu Apr 29th, 2010 03:30 pm by Chris Shelton

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Ray Hall wrote: Glenn wrote: Maybe I'm not taking enough drug's here for you Chris :doh

Please do me a huge favour.. When 'Stephen Hawking' series Air's on Discovery on yourside. watch it??
I think it will be very interesting to see?? (Even if you believe it or not)

Either the guy in the wheel chair (Stephen Hawking) Number 1 scientist in the world has gone completly mad and has lost the plot.. Or we are just so blind and stupid to believe in what he say's.


mmmm..... I can tell you one thing though.... I BELIEVE IN NO MAN ON EARTH!!!!!

doesnt matter if he is the number 1 fudge maker of the number 1 hairdresser...

 The only time that I will believe in man is when the Holy Spirit works through him.

My2cents....


 

That's true Ray...

But.. Do you believe in other possible form's of life?? (jokes a side please)

The bible has been written over a billion time's.. So who really know's how it started off? (old testament) but is it really what it should be?

I have learned that the first church statred not out of faifth but out of being a theif and a con! The guy who started the first church was that! he con'd so many people out of money and other thing's.. Seen a programme on it a while back.

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Chris Shelton wrote: Extremely intelligent guy he is, that I don't dispute, but he's not God!

Now getting back to God, I firmly believe that the Earth and all it's inhabitants, past, present and future were part of God's MASTER PLAN! Now i can't explain why i say this without getting all religious, so suffice to say, if Earth indeed was his master plan, why would he bother trying to sustain life on other planets? He has enough on His hands already!!! ;)


He could be god and you just dont know it! who know's.. :clow

God made all in 6 day's and rested the 7th day! 'Made all'.. That's what he has done including other thing's yet not discovered.

Like you cris I'm not easy taken into thing's nor fooled.. But when I see a thing or programme I'm open minded about it.. (get it a chance) And at present this is being open minded.. So thing's are a possibility just now.

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Well if you don't believe what has been written and re-written a 'billion'(gross exaggeration) times over...with the same basic truths being revealed everytime,... then you may as well believe in pie in the sky, or whatever else you choose to believe. Who am I to argue?

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Glenn wrote: Chris Shelton wrote: Extremely intelligent guy he is, that I don't dispute, but he's not God!

Now getting back to God, I firmly believe that the Earth and all it's inhabitants, past, present and future were part of God's MASTER PLAN! Now i can't explain why i say this without getting all religious, so suffice to say, if Earth indeed was his master plan, why would he bother trying to sustain life on other planets? He has enough on His hands already!!! ;)


He could be god and you just dont know it! who know's.. :clow

God made all in 6 day's and rested the 7th day! 'Made all'.. That's what he has done including other thing's yet not discovered.

Like you cris I'm not easy taken into thing's nor fooled.. But when I see a thing or programme I'm open minded about it.. (get it a chance) And at present this is being open minded.. So thing's are a possibility just now.

I prefer to give God a chance boet. It's a far more comforting option

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The bible has been written ALOT of time's.. maybe not as much as i said. (I take that back) but ALOT of time's..

Still I don't need a bible to believe in god..

Look around you!! tell me what you see Chris?? God's work!! that's enough for me.

Chris Shelton
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Glenn wrote: The bible has been written ALOT of time's.. maybe not as much as i said. (I take that back) but ALOT of time's..

Still I don't need a bible to believe in god..

Look around you!! tell me what you see Chris?? God's work!! that's enough for me.

Amen brother!

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And on the subject of 'Gods work' He couldn't of made it any more beautiful than Sunny South Africa!!!! :SSS

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Start walking!!!

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Glenn wrote:
JustPlainSHARK wrote: They do exist! Check out all the illegal ones right here in SA ::S

 

oO( O no.. I can see where this tread is heading towards)

Bud, I was just joking around and being a bit synical about SPACE aliens. I see the thread has taken a turn towards pornography and religion in anycase. No harm or hijacking were intended.

Last edited on Thu Apr 29th, 2010 06:05 pm by JustPlainSHARK

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JustPlainSHARK wrote: Glenn wrote:
JustPlainSHARK wrote: They do exist! Check out all the illegal ones right here in SA ::S

 

oO( O no.. I can see where this tread is heading towards)

Bud, I was just joking around and being a bit synical about SPACE aliens. I see the thread has taken a turn towards pornography and religion in anycase. No harm or hijacking were intended.

@ JustPlainSHARK

:hyst:  I was only joking on i can see where this tread is heading towards?? What do you believe.. have your say... :alien

1:God came into this merely because 'God' created everything in essence & what ever lurk's out there.. that's 'undiscovered'

2: Pornography .. Well I didn't bring that in to the tread but someone else did.. But I sure answered the question about it.. I just think It down grades a women.

Last edited on Thu Apr 29th, 2010 09:50 pm by Glenn

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The following extract is taken from the official NASA homepage on Facebook;
NASA: "Where Science Never Sleeps" We have NOT found any aliens! However, we're looking and listening

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Chris Shelton wrote: The following extract is taken from the official NASA homepage on Facebook;
NASA: "Where Science Never Sleeps" We have NOT found any aliens! However, we're looking and listening



:hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::lol:1:lol:1

N.A.S.A Would even deny that they dont even have a mother.

Just like 'Area 51' in colorado U.S.A deny's everything.. Have a read Chris :)

 

On May 14, 2008, an oval object with a turquoise glow fell out of the sky around three o'clock in the morning and crashed west of the Colorado River near Needles, California. The crash was almost immediately followed by the appearance of unmarked vehicles with government license plates manned by non-uniformed personnel, a small fleet of transport aircrafts and helicopters including a sky crane which later removed the object. Like many incidents of this kind, this one quickly became a non-event. So what really happened?

It's important to understand that the object in question has been seen in the Needles area before and elsewhere as well. An object described as oval shaped with a turquoise glow was spotted by a motorist traveling just west of Needles on I-40 on April 17, 2002 at around three thirty in the morning. During that incident the object hovered above the road in mid-air. Another sighting occurred in 1997 near Columbus, Ohio. A photographer was filming clouds when a glowing object described as turquoise in color appeared on several of the frames that were photographed. The object wasn't seen through the camera lens at the time the photos were taken.

 
Needles, California, is located in the Mojave Valley and is a part of San Bernardino County. It's just across the bridge from Arizona and near the Nevada border as well. Historic Route 66 and I-40 run through the town with a population of between 5000 and 6000 people. Originally named for a group of pointed rocks on the Arizona side of the Colorado River, Needles was founded in 1883 and has been an important stopping place for people traveling east to west into California ever since. It's also the kind of place where the crash of something strange might go unnoticed if it occurred outside of town. Fortunately, this crash had witnesses.

 
The first witness to the May 14, 2008 incident was a person we'll call Bob. He lives on a houseboat in Topock, Arizona, a town that is little more than a Marina and a couple of stores near Golden Shores. Bob reported seeing a glowing turquoise-blue-green object high in the sky and headed in his direction around three o‘clock in the morning. He was sitting on the upper deck of his houseboat at the time. As it passed, he said that it looked as though the thing was on fire. He saw the object hit the ground somewhere west of the Colorado River on the California side. It bounced once and he recalled hearing a noise like a thump.


Thinking that some kind of plane had crashed, Bob tried using his satellite phone to call 911. His phone would not connect. After the crash, Bob heard the sound of helicopters approaching and reported seeing five of them flying in formation less than twenty minutes after the object hit the ground. One of them circled his houseboat before rejoining the others. Another was a sky crane that retrieved the oval-shaped object while it was still glowing with some kind of cables or a net and flew away with it. The crash occurred between Topock and Needles, west of the Colorado River and south of Needles.


Frank Costigan lives three miles east of the Colorado River and became the second witness to the May 14, 2008 incident. He got up around three in the morning to let his cat out. While standing in his backyard, Frank noticed a large glowing object streaking across the sky. It flashed a number of colors including turquoise, blue and green. The object was headed towards the ground and he expected to hear some sort of impact noise. Costigan later offered this statement:

 
"I thought I might hear something when it hit the ground because if it was as close as I thought it was and as big as it was, I thought I would hear something. But I did not hear anything. And it went out of my view before it hit the ground . . . It went behind a hill, and I waited to see if I could hear it crash because as big as it was, it was bound to make noise."


Costigan reported that the object was bright enough to illuminate the ground. He said that it came out of the northeast, headed southwest at a tremendous speed, slowed down and speeded up again before moving out of his sight. Frank is a retired Superintendent of Operations and Police Chief. He worked at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) from 1978 until 1985 and at Ontario (California) International Airport from 1985 to 1986. He occasionally does special reports and news investigations for KTOX, an AM radio station in Needles, California. Frank later told David Hayes, the station owner, about the bizarre object he saw earlier that morning. Hayes surprised Costigan with his own strange story.

 
While driving on I-40 on his way to work that morning, Hayes saw a small convoy of darkly-painted vehicles exiting the highway. The vehicles had black and white government license plates. The lead truck looked a bit like a very large SUV with a dome on top, a truck bed and appeared to have four wheel drive. The vehicle may have been carrying a remote controlled drone. Hayes said that he could see a triangular object that sat on top of several small humps in the truck bed and that it reminded him of the look of a stealth bomber.

 
A dark green van followed behind the first vehicle and a longer van followed the green one. Hayes told Costigan that he could see men inside the trucks. They did not have military uniforms on, but after he made eye contact with the driver of the third vehicle, it followed him to the radio station. One of the trucks returned later that day and briefly parked outside the KTOX building. It seemed to be involved in some sort of surveillance of the radio station.

 
Hayes and Costigan reported the strange events that occurred on May 14, 2008 during regular programming at KTOX for days and asked for any other witnesses to come forward. That‘s how they obtained the story from Bob and he wasn‘t the only person to call in. Someone known to them from nearby Laughlin, Nevada, phoned to report that Janet planes where taking off and landing at the Laughlin Airport all night on the date that the crash occurred. Because the airport and control tower were closed at the time, Laughlin Airport personnel cannot confirm the presence of the Janet planes on the night in question.

 
Janet planes are the nickname some have given to the aircrafts that fly workers in and out of Area 51. A small terminal exists at McCarran Airport in Las Vegas for the mysterious airline operated by EE&G (a U.S. Government contractor). Large and smaller passenger jets and a few prop planes ferry workers to Groom Lake in Area 51 and the Tonopah Test Range, but there is no reason to expect that such aircraft would land in Laughlin. Because the airport and control tower were closed at the time, Laughlin Airport personnel cannot confirm the presence of the Janet planes on the night in question.


Strange things continued to happen in the Needles area after the crash. No one seems able to locate Bob and many believe he has left the area. Toni Sagan, a member of the River Valley Democratic Club in the area, was questioned by a stranger at a club meeting after she appeared on the radio station to talk about the 2008 presidential race. The man wanted to know if she heard any off-air conversations between David Hayes and a witness to the crash he had on the phone. Toni said that she had never seen the man before and that he seemed out of place in terms of the way he dressed as compared to most people that live in the area.


Although a public shows that at least one military helicopter was in the area on the night of the crash, there are no police, emergency, military or government agencies willing to offer any comments on the incident. Noted journalist George Knapp and members of the Channel 8 (CBS Network TV Affiliate in Las Vegas) Investigative Team say they have contacted "police agencies in three states, the Laughlin Airport, the weather service.

Last edited on Sun May 2nd, 2010 12:24 pm by Glenn

Enigma
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I'm just waiting for them to find a new earth that we need to populate -

Just imagine fishing those new pristine unfished oceans..........

Go back to our oceans 100 years ago.......... only catch and release.............what a JOL

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Enigma wrote: I'm just waiting for them to find a new earth that we need to populate -

Just imagine fishing those new pristine unfished oceans..........

Go back to our oceans 100 years ago.......... only catch and release.............what a JOL


You have a good point there craig .. :lol:1

I hope that applys to women as well ! :merm

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Glenn,the programme will be aired here in Oct

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Sigh....'Area51'....absolute Bollocks!!! Only in America!

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MichaelK wrote: UFO sightings on the bluff last week, reports indicate red lights hovering near the old whaling station and 3 slim figures seen reported walking up the dunes.

A woman also reports having her car cut out when 3 figures walked into the middle of the road, apparently her cell phone went dead aswell and the car and cell phone only worked again when the 3 tall slim figures dressed in over coats walked into the bush near the arm base.

This is a true story google it or check ECR news archives.

As far as i'm concerned, these bluff okkies where probably goofed on wacky weed.


Right so this was my earlier posting only to be followed by Glenns Hollier than thou condesending postings. Well this was taken from the Bluff Community safety organisations emails. Its an organisation run by safety conscious individuals on the bluff whom recieve emails from a large percentage of the bluff residence and compile all of them and resend them out to all on there emailing list (Which is 90 % of the bluff residence). It gives the residence an idea of the types of crime happening on there door step.

Unfortunately this UFO incident has dominated the CSO' s emails lately, but i'm posting it to show you that i was not trying to take the mickey out of Glen

 

Attachment: BLUFFS~1.pdf (Downloaded 41 times)

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mudcrab wrote: Glenn,the programme will be aired here in Oct
thank's... :)

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Chris Shelton wrote: Sigh....'Area51'....absolute Bollocks!!! Only in America!
Only in South Africa! ::S

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MichaelK wrote:

Right so this was my earlier posting only to be followed by Glenns Hollier than thou condesending postings.  


Do I come across to you as Displaying a patronizingly superior attitude??

Michael, The posting is there for everyone to commment on.. And I myself are willing to hear everyone's view's.. And with all due respect, I'm not knocking your posting's & I would think it's nice to have a laugh between all of us on this chossen subject.

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It's always astonishing to me how much (time & resources) guys invest in this quest, cant really understand the obsession, maybe Im just ignorant, or maybe there's just too many unknowns to be interested in it just yet. I kept reading the thread hoping something I havent thought of might come out of it considering the confidence in the heading (the humour was somewhat entertaining too) The best one I always arrive at says that it's plausible that we're not the only planet where there is life &/or the only one that supports life considering the vastness of the universe, so our existence makes it probable that life as we know it exists somewhere out there. I suppose probable is an improvement from possible, but it's all still hearsay.

 

 

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This topic is just too huge to get a handle on!

I have been through and forward and back on this one since my early twenties, but most people have such fixed positions that it cannot really be debated, so I have given up!

My thoughts have changed over the years, yet I am no closer to an answer, as is not ONE living person on this planet...

And religion does come into it

So just random things--they all relate to this fascinating topic

-Does God ( a Creator) exist

- If he does, who created him?

-If he does not, who created matter/primordial gas, etc etc that the universe consists/started off with in the first place?

-Have not read all the posts, but reference was made to ALIENS? in the Bible on the first page...they were the Nephelim ( sons of GOD) and mated with the daughters of Man...their offspring were the giants, mighty worriers, Nimrod was one of them

-If you believe the Bible, then there was a VERY different world before and after NOAH...it is written there in plain English..mindboggling stuff, go read it!

-I battle with how essentially inorganic material could turn to organic and start reproducing on this planet all by itself

- I have a problem with the Old Testament because there were a lot of politics around regarding which books to include in about 300 AD...Emperor Constantine and his new Roman Church had a lot to do with it ( go Google it..you can find the minutes of those meetings and the skullduggery that went on)

-The Genesis account cannot be right..too many contradictions in the first few chapters..Go read Gen 1 and 2 intelligently

- I have seen the Holy Spirit move mightly

-The earth IS as old as Carbon dating tells us..it is science, the same stuff that makes your cellphone work

-There IS a spiritual world out there...I have seen my late wife's hands completely heal in front of my own eyes in 30 minutes after being seriously burnt and laying on off hands.. good friends of mine were present and will testify to that

-I have had experiences with the occult when I was young and curious

-There is clearvoyancy in my family and my Grandmother and my dad and his 6 siblings were exposed to terrible stuff (  Afrikaans goelery) for seven years in the early fifties

-Most of this stuff is the work of familiar spirits "demons" for the lack of a better word

- These spirits and other things that go bump in the night are as old as time and obviously live in another dimension

-I studied both Geology and Zoology at University, so have a good grasp of time and evolution

-Of the late few years, I have been battling with evolution as well..simply too few fossils of "intermediary" species with all the science at our disposal and so many looking for them for so long!

-Also too many species around considering "growing" up in the same environment...  for example how many different fish evolving in the same water at the same temperature fighting over the same food?)..supposed to have all evolved the same I should think...why do we have that joker, the hammerhead shark?...which part of the ocean did he evolve in?  :)

- So I have no firm believes anymore

-There HAS to be other life..we are SO arrogant as a race to think that conditions has to be the same as ours to support life!...after all, the spiritual world is "life" also and they live on/near earth and is VERY intelligent life! They dont eat and drink and do not even NEED a planet... They could also be living very far away.. we simply don't know.

-There are billions of Galaxies so much older than our own little solar system where live could have evolved or been "created"

-There is so much hype around this thing and some authors are revered for their works, but yet will be going into the same box as you and I and have no clue how to to fix their cellphones!  I once read a 800 page book by a chap that proved GOD HAS to exist through applied maths!

Does "GOD" exist?..yes I think so, but he is not alone!

Has God and Jesus and all the great prophets of time have a say in our Salvation?...I don't honestly know

But there HAS to be life out there amongst all the matter/anti matter in the universe

If it is ONLY us, you have to go with Genesis and the creation story ( created only us in His image)....I can't!

 

Fat lot said quickly!    :)

Here is what vexes me though:

Before there was ANYTHING, there must have been NOTHING...the universe and the matter in it can be dated, it has NOT always existed!

So where did the SOMETHING (matter) come from?

And once again, if God made it, then where does God come from and who made him?

We will find these answers one at a time as we all die one at a time....because there IS life after death and we will be looking from the outside in

And we will know who steals quota and keep undersize fish!

 

PS:

I am wrong with the shuffling around of books included in the Old Testament, which is the history of the Jews and also of the contemporary nations..a lot of this common ancestory is duplicated in the Koran

The fight was about which books to include in the NEW TESTAMENT

Last edited on Tue May 4th, 2010 03:21 pm by thika

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Excellent post thika .. :clap12 

 

thika wrote:

   Does God ( a Creator) exist

   If he does, who created him?
Good point.. but we are all not programmed to know that one.. Are mind's don't have the knowledge
I have seen the Holy Spirit move mightly
Amen! Can you explain this please.. thanx
There IS a spiritual world out there...I have seen my late wife's hands completely heal in front off my own eyes in 30 minutes after being seriously burnt and laying on off hands...many good friends of mine were present and will testify to that
I seen a guy who could not walk for 20years (The docs said he had a condition where his legs where useless and no medicine or operation would cure him)in a wheel chair from northern ireland go to a healing service in canada.. While in the service he wasn't expecting anything to happen.. The guy who was healing said after a while to the guy on the wheel chair he was healed!.. All of a suden the guy could feel a pain in his legs and then he started to move them off the wheelchair.. and then stood up and walked.
-I have had experiences with the occult when I was young and curious
would you like to share this with us??
-There is clearvoyancy in my family and my Grandmother and my dad and his 6 siblings were exposed to terrible stuff (  Afrikaans goelery) for seven years in the early fifties
Have you got this also? Any idea when I make a move to South Africa? Sorry I just had to ask..There HAS to be other life..we are SO arrogant as a race to think that conditions has to be the same as ours to support life!...after all, the spiritual world is "life" also and they live on/near earth and is VERY intelligent life! They dont eat and drink and do not even NEED a planet... They could also be living very far away.. we simply don't know.
My thought's excatly
Does "GOD" exist?..yes I think so, but he is not alone!
How did all this start? a boom? NO.. We come from the sea as fish? NO.. Something had to create this?
So where did the SOMETHING (matter) come from?

And once again, if God made it, then where does God come from and who made him?


There is a begining to everything.. The question now lies on how the begining ever started.

Take note: There is also an End to a begining.. Could this just be..

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If we were the only beings in the entire universe, it is an awfull waste of space

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Morning Glen,

No I will not share those experiences

And my advice to you is to steer away from clearvoyants...it is the familiar spirits that use these mediums, and the last thing you want in life is to draw their attention to you

Stay well

Marthin
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well said thika.

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Here's my take - I will rather believe in God, so when I die and I find him, good for me. If I don't believe in him and I die, and he does exists - not good for me.

I believe there is a possibilty of life out there -if God want's us to experience it, he will. If not, we will never know.

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thika wrote:

No I will not share those experiences

::respekt:

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jdereuck wrote: Here's my take - I will rather believe in God, so when I die and I find him, good for me. If I don't believe in him and I die, and he does exists - not good for me.

I believe there is a possibilty of life out there -if God want's us to experience it, he will. If not, we will never know.

There are many problems with Pascal's wager - mostly because it does not imply a sincere belief in God. God knows our hearts & minds & hence our motives for believing in him. In His word he says that we should love him with all our might & strength; which is transitive to believing in Him with such conviction. Pascal's wager is more of a safe gamble than an honest belief. No offence. 

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His WORD also says

- that you should die to your old/own self

-accept Him as your Saviour and accept his Holy Spirit into your heart

-confess your sins

-be reborn

-be baptized as an adult

-live a holy life

and some more!

Without the above our "best works are like filthy rags to Him"

It is a mouthfull

"Believing" in the Bible and "believing" in God does not cut it!

The above is not man-made religion nor doctrine..THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!

What was this thread about again?  :)

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thika wrote:
His WORD also says

- that you should die to your old/own self

-accept Him as your Saviour and accept his Holy Spirit into your heart

-confess your sins

-be reborn

-be baptized as an adult

-live a holy life

and some more!

Without the above our "best works are like filthy rags to Him"

It is a mouthfull

"Believing" in the Bible and "believing" in God does not cut it!

The above is not man-made religion nor doctrine..THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!

What was this thread about again?  :)


AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!! It's hard for a man who walks in the spirit to explain these things to a man who walks in flesh...

Last edited on Mon May 10th, 2010 02:54 pm by Inky Squid

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GOD..........Good Orderly Direction, DOG spelt backwards and most religions are really just a means to soften the blow of the ultimate question of what happens to use when we die(apart from the fact that we go all mushy and green and start to smell bad).

Anyway, its all irrelevant 'cos us catholics own heaven and the rest just lease office space up there. LOL!

I've seen a real miracle or two in my time and its got nothing to with turning water into wine. I believe in a Higher Power but find organised religion a little bit weird and at times, downright distasteful.

But, ones belief is down to the individual and as long as it does not impose itself on those of others, its your choice.

As for aliens. Well, depending on the quality of the mushrooms, I've seen plenty and have even chatted to one or two.

Funny thing is though, since I stopped eating mushrooms I've not seen them since.....LOL!

Peace all!

Last edited on Mon May 10th, 2010 04:58 pm by kraken

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THE ROAD TO HEAVEN IS THE NARROW WINDING ROAD!

Not a broad open highway free for all...it comes at a huge personal cost and this has nothing to do with materialistic notions

I am a backslidden reborn Christian but I do not have the luxury of ignorance  :(

25 December 1994 was my date in Emmanuel Church in Margate..I was 40 years old... baptized in the Ocean..where else? :)

But I tell you, God custom made this place for us, so ENJOY!!!

And do not be deceived by ****** preachers and churches and suchlike you see on TV!

You have one foot on earth and the other foot in God's Kingdom and it is a one on one thing!  :)...

Does not matter WHICH BOOK you are reading!

Not really sure really how things work, but gonna have some good Tas now and light a Camel!

:wfish

Glenn
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kraken wrote:
As for aliens. Well, depending on the quality of the mushrooms, I've seen plenty and have even chatted to one or two.


The Tuna can ONLY get BIGGER when I come over to Cape Town ?? :lol:1

Glenn
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thika wrote: THE ROAD TO HEAVEN IS THE NARROW WINDING ROAD!

Not a broad open highway free for all...it comes at a huge personal cost and this has nothing to do with materialistic notions

I am a backslidden reborn Christian but I do not have the luxury of ignorance  :(

25 December 1994 was my date in Emmanuel Church in Margate..I was 40 years old... baptized in the Ocean..where else? :)

But I tell you, God custom made this place for us, so ENJOY!!!

And do not be deceived by ****** preachers and churches and suchlike you see on TV!

You have one foot on earth and the other foot in God's Kingdom and it is a one on one thing!  :)...

Does not matter WHICH BOOK you are reading!

Not really sure really how things work, but gonna have some good Tas now and light a Camel!

:wfish


I have alway's wanted to know When god made Adam & Eve they had 2 son's called Cain & Able.. Now one of the son's married a 'Women'

Who the heck did he marry!! There was no other 'Women' that God had mentioned or created.

Glenn
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Update: Alien's & Stephen Hawking

I watched the very first episode on Discovery last night.. And I was VERY disapointed in the programme..

The ONLY thing that was exciting about it.. That they mentioned they had 'Contact' with something in '1977' which they have a listening device on echo sound's etc.. etc.. (A massive telescope looking device that has a beam light) And got a major responce message back..And they translated it into some sort of message to us.. They then scanned this area for year's and year's and have not got anything to this very day.

Next week's programme is on time travel with Stephen hawking.. I hope this isn't as bad as the first episode.

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Update:    :alien

After watching the second series of Stephen hawking's 'Time Travel' (Sorry for the delay, should of watched it on sunday.. but it was recorded and I managed to watch it today) And after the first programme I was let's just say.. not looking forward to watching it really after the first episode??

Anyway.. Let me start of by saying this is a MUST SEE .. I never knew this sort of stuff was possible.. It make's one wonder what really is out there are even what is amoung us.

If they where ever to invent the stuff that was required (And they will in time I'm sure) This will prevent alot of bad thing's happening.. Maybe that's a bad thing really? Firstly if they are mean't to happen in the first place, why mess with nature..

Man has no boundries in life and will go to the far end's of the earth to get an answer.. But will that answer by a heavenly gift? Or the destruction of life its self!

The next episode is this coming sunday.. Stay tuned.

Glenn -

 

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Glenn, it took us 6 monts to get to Mars from earth. That was at 27000km/h. Now say we make contack. How you gonne get there. If you invite the buggers over and they like us leen to welldone we all buggerd. Not even 90 generations beyond of the current you wil be intime to report back on who and what are they. So let your cureosity be. Not in the power of man to get there evar. Time is up for earth. Openbaring; When the 7th Cimbal has sounded the Efraat wil dry up. That happend in 2003. All those farms that was next to that river is now only a memory. All that fighting there now for water. Time is up for earthlings. Forget about earthly treasures and repent so you can have heavenly treasure. Just my 2c.

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Jussus Sailfish! Sounds like you've been listening to some heavy death metal bru! LOL

I live just for today. Yesterday is history and is gone forever.What happens tomorrow is beyond our control. All we have is today.

If an alien wants to shove a sosatie stick up my ass and dip me in a barrel of wasabi, there's not a helluva lot I can do and I don't lose any sleep over it.

I like to keep things simple.

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Nope!! No heavy metal. Just reading the GOOD BOOK and seeing the sighns in life that was written a long time ago. But i get verry upset if some guys think it would be nice to comunicate with the unknown and sending signals to  whom might be out there. Yust now it is an planet with a zillion hungry whatever and theez guys think they are smart and dont think of what they are actually doing. Hell bells like a church on sunday morning. Come eat us erthlings. Let sleeping dogs sleep. We dont know what is out there and i sure as hell dont whant to find out when i am on n spitbraai. So what if you know there is ET out there. But i shure dont want them to know we are out here aswell.:fbash

Last edited on Thu May 20th, 2010 08:27 pm by Sailfish

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No me neither Sailfish! I think we'd be in a lot of ***.........!

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@ Sailfish

You may have a point there about NOT wanting to know..

But curiosity got the cat!

When man look's at himself in a mirror.. he is never happy, never happy with what he has or what he get's!

The reason for this is that we are all sinner's! And no matter how we repent to god or who ever one worship's regarding your religion.. you where born a sinner and one shall die a sinner.

@ Kraken

Time to get on the Mushroom train! ::S

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kraken wrote: Jussus Sailfish! Sounds like you've been listening to some heavy death metal bru! LOL



 

:lol:1:lol:1:lol:1:lol:1:hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst:

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Glenn wrote: @ Sailfish

You may have a point there about NOT wanting to know..

But curiosity got the cat!

When man look's at himself in a mirror.. he is never happy, never happy with what he has or what he get's!

The reason for this is that we are all sinner's! And no matter how we repent to god or who ever one worship's regarding your religion.. you where born a sinner and one shall die a sinner.

@ Kraken

Time to get on the Mushroom train! ::S


Let me help you rite here with your fraze. CURIOSITY KILLED THE CAT.

The reason for this is that we are all sinner's! And no matter how we repent to god or who ever one worship's regarding your religion.. you where born a sinner and one shall die a sinner.
No my friend you got it all wrong. You can if you want!! Die with your sins been forgiven. Big diffrince !!! This wil determan where you end up after your live on earth.

Glenn
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Sailfish wrote: Let me help you rite here with your fraze. CURIOSITY KILLED THE CAT.

The reason for this is that we are all sinner's! And no matter how we repent to god or who ever one worship's regarding your religion.. you where born a sinner and one shall die a sinner.
No my friend you got it all wrong. You can if you want!! Die with your sins been forgiven. Big diffrince !!! This wil determan where you end up after your live on earth.


Sailfish I haven't got it wrong! Sorry I should of said it better for you.. We are all sinner's but we change this by being saved!! And one who has not been saved with die as a sinner as they where born.

Is that any clearer for you ??

oO( I wonder if alien's have a close link up with god)

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I find it hard to believe there isn't some form of life out there, intelligent or otherwise. One just has to look at the numbers to realise that, as small as the odds were of lifeforms evolving on earth, the universe is so expansive that there are definitely planets with similar conditions and capabilities.

That said, I find it unlikely that the lifeforms would resemble us in any way, since they would have had to have evolved in identical conditions at an identical pace and at an identical time to do so.

I don't think Scientists have ever really been skeptical of extra-terrestrial life. I think it's more a case of them being skeptical of the idea that there are intelligent extra-terrestrial beings that visit us sporadically.

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Update:

After watching the final episode of steven hawking.. This programme wasn't the usual 1 hour long it was 2 hour's long.

He talk's of how all the universe and planet's started of by the big bang. How it all started of was,if you can imagine.. a ball of light and in that ball was atoms, mattor, gravity.. and out side that ball there was nothing.. everything was black, there was no universe no star's no life everything was in that ball.. just atoms, mattor, gravity.

When it exploded due to expansion, then the atoms, mattor, gravity started to form dust, star's, anti- mattor etc.. etc.. Gravity then had a part to play with the shifting of star's threw thousand's of year's.. The sun played a major part next.. This is why earth has been so lucky to have protection against rock form's etc.. but this will not alway's be!! Gravity then played a major part for earth and for what was about to happen next.. (If I go into it too much I will be here light year's away,still explaning the concept)

65 Million year's ago was the reign of the dinosaur's.. Which was wiped out by a 10mile's wide asteroid! Which took everything on earth.. It was after this that anti mattor and mattor atom's which we are made of played a very lucky role. and created the human race.. Which he goes on to say that he 'Human race was a mistake' But watch out.. There is a much bigger Asteroid on the way in the near future. He also add's that there may be something of higher Authority playing the major role on nature itself.

The Sun has played a major part.. but now is causing climate change on our earth everywhere.. I have no need to tell you all how this is effecting us! To cut along story short.. Steven Hawking talk's about the breaking down now of the sun.. which will make the sun expand and grow bigger and bigger every year.. this will cause an imbalance in our universe.. It will get that big that it will be dominant over everything and earth will eventually burn itself out.

There is so more talk on spaceship's being made to go faster etc. etc.. but you will all see this when you see the programme (Not wanting to spoil it all for you)

In my time watching these episode's of steven hawking I have enjoyed his teaching's..(Having an open mind and willing to explore his finding's) And as merely an outsider looking in I guess anything is possible.. Can we all say there is no other life, can we all say that nothing is possible with out investigating the cause.. I do know one thing tho.. And you all will agree that the earth we know and love and live on.. is on a slow course to destruction.

Ps.. I find this guy (Steven Hawing) very fascinating in this own right.

Glenn -

 

 

 

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Glenn,

No need to lose sleep....

Not gonna happen in your lifetime :)

Steven Blah Blah will go to his coffin and be NONE the wiser like all of us!

Nevertheless I respect him for letting his mind overcome his disability!

He is an amazing person and a scientist but very humble people living in Tibet and even in this country have a better understanding I think

No man can ever fathom God's creation..we are just another specie of animal  :) 

So drink your beer and let your yes be your yes and your no be your no!

Stay well

Thika

 

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Read your BYBEL, we are the beginning and we are the end, no one knows when the end of time will be not my sun or any of the angels only I know when that time will come.

And that is what I believe no space dude will tell me when I will die, Wow I feel much better lets go fishing.

WWFisherman
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Glenn wrote: To cut along story short.. Steven Hawking talk's about the breaking down now of the sun.. which will make the sun expand and grow bigger and bigger every year.. this will cause an imbalance in our universe.. It will get that big that it will be dominant over everything and earth will eventually burn itself out. 

It's a sad thought when you consider how beautiful the earth is. I always have this tinge of sadness when I'm at the Wild Coast and I think that it'll probably all be destroyed in a few hundred years time (by people not by the sun) so to think that one day our whole solar system will implode is quite a thing. But I suppose that whilst our world ends new ones will be forming, which is interesting.

There was an interesting article today in the Sydney Morning Herald on photo caught by Hubble of a planet being devoured by its star: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/hubble-catches-planet-being-devoured-by-its-star-20100526-wboz.html

As thika says, not going to happen in our lifetime or our children's so it's nothing I genuinely worry about. We're just life forms, going about our business, probably making it more complicated than it needs to be and then rotting back into the soil.

Funnily enough, since I stopped believing in a god, I feel much more comfortable with all that.

Last edited on Wed May 26th, 2010 01:28 pm by WWFisherman

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thika wrote:

Steven Blah Blah will go to his coffin and be NONE the wiser like all of us!


 

If you believe in god.. then you should be aware of an after life when yoiu leave the human body thika ??

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WWFisherman wrote:
Funnily enough, since I stopped believing in a god, I feel much more comfortable with all that.

Why did you stop believing in god? Can you give some reason's and explaination's etc.. Thank's.

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Glenn wrote: WWFisherman wrote:
Funnily enough, since I stopped believing in a god, I feel much more comfortable with all that.

Why did you stop believing in god? Can you give some reason's and explaination's etc.. Thank's.

I don't know, I think I got to a point where I started to question why I believed in God. I was raised by Christian parents and I converted to Christianity when I was young. I guess I realised that I had never actually had a choice in the matter. If my parents had belonged to the Order of Spaghetti Bolognese I would have grown up believing in that, if you know what I mean. When you're a kid you accept what you're taught and the way that you're raised as the norm… as reality.

So I figured that my belief stemmed from nurture and that it was therefore probably insincere. So, I decided that if I was going to be a proper Christian that I would have to really believe it for myself and make that decision myself as an adult. However, the more I thought about it, the more contradictions and the more questions I came across. I realised that I had been lied to a lot as a kid and that a lot of what I taught was completely ridiculous and lacked any proof other than what was written in a book (the age of the earth being < 10 000 years old, for example) and, as I realised that what was written in the book was heavily edited and controlled by people in history who used religion for power over the masses and acted in a way totally contradictory to Christian beliefs, I slowly began to feel that there was something about religion that didn't sit right with me.

I've never really discussed my no-theism with anybody except my wife, who is Christian, because it doesn't dominate my life but I just truly don't believe in an omnipotent being. I mean, it is possible that there is a god but I don't sincerely believe it. To be a Christian and not truly believe would be hypocrisy for me and something akin to Pascal's Wager.

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WWFisherman wrote:  but I just truly don't believe in an omnipotent being. I mean, it is possible that there is a god but I don't sincerely believe it. To be a Christian and not truly believe would be hypocrisy for me and something akin to Pascal's Wager.


Snap! You have the same view's as myself.. I believe we have a creator!! But not what everyone say's, or have been told to believe in.. if you know what I mean ???? And The creator I shall worship who has made us and so forth.

The first ever church was started up by a theif and conn man who lied murdered and stole people's money for the name of 'God' & it extended from that I guess.. Believe in me and you will have ever lasting life.. No one want's to die!! They wish to live forever!? And if you don't believe in god you go to hell! ?? What is hell? Can you also prove that hell exists? Believe in me and you shall go to heaven? What is heaven? Can you prove heaven exists? There are so many question's that one can ask and not get any answer's for.

All over the world there are so many Religion's .. so many different belief's in different god's.. for example.. And out of all respect to each and every religion.. The Muslim religion worships Allah.. We have a difference between Catholic and prodestant over here in Northern Ireland.. Other's worship The sun..the stars.. stone's.. Tree's.. animal's.. And so on.. What make's are religion the right one to believe in? For all we know a stone could be the right god.

What if... We die and that's just it!! Would you have all done thing's differently in life?? 

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You know after reading all you guys posts about death, funny thing life sound like it is taken for granted.

We all accept we are going to die, we all all understand what death is, we seize living, no matter where we go to. the fact is we are gone.

Scientists can explain death, even I can, no more heartbeat --no more life.

NOT ONE scientist from when untill now an explain life. Not where it started, not how it was started.

Name me one thing right this minute that us as man has CREATED. NOT MADE but CREATED. I need only one example and maybe, just maybe I could acknowledge that  there could be a hint of moral to the story of a guy not believing.

Now tell me where does all ( do a 360 degree around you) this come from.

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Simen wrote: Now tell me where does all ( do a 360 degree around you) this come from.


Let me be the first kind sir .. ::S

 

Stephen hawking explain's this.. It is all Atom.. Mattor & Anti Mattor..And the key 'Gravity' that hold's us all down.. caused by the start of thing's.. (The ball of light that existed and grew to explode) And thing's revolving out of this... Human's weren't actually made to exist.. it was a mistake.. but a very lucky one at that..

The programme air's over in south Africa October 2010.. the first episiode I found let's just say.. rubbish.. But all the rest we very eye opening simen.

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Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: Now tell me where does all ( do a 360 degree around you) this come from.


Let me be the first kind sir .. ::S

 

Stephen hawking explain's this.. It is all Atom.. Mattor & Anti Mattor..And the key 'Gravity' that hold's us all down.. caused by the start of thing's.. (The ball of light that existed and grew to explode) And thing's revolving out of this... Human's weren't actually made to exist.. it was a mistake.. but a very lucky one at that..

The programme air's over in south Africa October 2010.. the first episiode I found let's just say.. rubbish.. But all the rest we very eye opening simen.


It is all Atom.. Mattor & Anti Mattor- even that has to have an excistance

Be so kind and ask Stephen hawking to also explain where all this  came from.

lets accept the big bang theory for a second. Great it happened, where did all the planets involved in the bang come from?

 

Humans in your own words wernt actually MADE to excist ( mistake or not). MADE, everything is MADE regardless. What about animals then, where do they come from.

Glenn
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Simen wrote: Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: Now tell me where does all ( do a 360 degree around you) this come from.


Let me be the first kind sir .. ::S

 

Stephen hawking explain's this.. It is all Atom.. Mattor & Anti Mattor..And the key 'Gravity' that hold's us all down.. caused by the start of thing's.. (The ball of light that existed and grew to explode) And thing's revolving out of this... Human's weren't actually made to exist.. it was a mistake.. but a very lucky one at that..

The programme air's over in south Africa October 2010.. the first episiode I found let's just say.. rubbish.. But all the rest we very eye opening simen.


It is all Atom.. Mattor & Anti Mattor- even that has to have an excistance

Be so kind and ask Stephen hawking to also explain where all this  came from.

lets accept the big bang theory for a second. Great it happened, where did all the planets involved in the bang come from?

 

Humans in your own words wernt actually MADE to excist ( mistake or not). MADE, everything is MADE regardless. What about animals then, where do they come from.

The exicistance was formed firstly by nothing.. no universe or light.. just darkness and a ball of light and in the middle of that ball of light was gases.. atoms.. gravity.. mattor and anti mattor...When it got to much inside it grew and grew then eventually exploded and this is how everything started he explained.

Everything will fall into place when you see the  programme.

The planet's where made up rom dust when the big bang happened.. This was all a very slow process tho.. (Over thousands of year's)  At the same time Mattor and anti mattor & Gases played a part in this.. but Gravity was the major key holder.. spacing the planet's apart and star's that where form'd from the explosion. The programme will explain this simen and this will all fall into place.. There is far to much detail for me to explain this...

Firstly they say the earth is only 10,000 year's old.. The earth was here 65 million year's ago with the reign of the dinosaur's.. They would still be here today.. only that an asteroid wiped them all out.. Infact there is an even bigger asteroid heading toward's earth that will wipe us out.. But not in our time's or the next 3 time's.

kraken
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Thank God I never shared a spliff with any of you lot..........:dude:

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hi all...very interesting and thought provoking thread this one.  What I have noticed, is scientists very often come up with a theory and then go bout trying to prove it while other scientists try to disprove it.  They are not able to think beyond what they see.  I am a Hindhu and believe the sun and the moon and planets all have an impact of our lives. Maybe scientists need to change their perspective and try to establish why we are here. We are here for a reason, the moon, stars, sun, other planets are here for a reason. Accidental result of the big bang theory ? I don't think so, such perfect orbits and the moon with its gravity assisting us ? Too many factors here to suggest a result of a solar explosion.

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Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: Now tell me where does all ( do a 360 degree around you) this come from.


Let me be the first kind sir .. ::S

 

Stephen hawking explain's this.. It is all Atom.. Mattor & Anti Mattor..And the key 'Gravity' that hold's us all down.. caused by the start of thing's.. (The ball of light that existed and grew to explode) And thing's revolving out of this... Human's weren't actually made to exist.. it was a mistake.. but a very lucky one at that..

The programme air's over in south Africa October 2010.. the first episiode I found let's just say.. rubbish.. But all the rest we very eye opening simen.


It is all Atom.. Mattor & Anti Mattor- even that has to have an excistance

Be so kind and ask Stephen hawking to also explain where all this  came from.

lets accept the big bang theory for a second. Great it happened, where did all the planets involved in the bang come from?

 

Humans in your own words wernt actually MADE to excist ( mistake or not). MADE, everything is MADE regardless. What about animals then, where do they come from.

The exicistance was formed firstly by nothing.. no universe or light.. just darkness and a ball of light and in the middle of that ball of light was gases.. atoms.. gravity.. mattor and anti mattor...When it got to much inside it grew and grew then eventually exploded and this is how everything started he explained.

Everything will fall into place when you see the  programme.

The planet's where made up rom dust when the big bang happened.. This was all a very slow process tho.. (Over thousands of year's)  At the same time Mattor and anti mattor & Gases played a part in this.. but Gravity was the major key holder.. spacing the planet's apart and star's that where form'd from the explosion. The programme will explain this simen and this will all fall into place.. There is far to much detail for me to explain this...

Firstly they say the earth is only 10,000 year's old.. The earth was here 65 million year's ago with the reign of the dinosaur's.. They would still be here today.. only that an asteroid wiped them all out.. Infact there is an even bigger asteroid heading toward's earth that will wipe us out.. But not in our time's or the next 3 time's.



Glenn all good and well. Lets say man evolved out of an atom and dust and whatever.

Either I am missing the point here or you are. Read above in blue. Even a dinosaur is life and was alive. Where did it come from.

To this living day we got it right to copy a lot of things, I mean we even make diamond from carbon, but not one scientist has or come close to copy LIFE ot a living something.

Ans so it will go on--remember a scientist can read and write and some of them even think, and thats where it stays, they think and anticipate and predict and say in all probability, but they have proven nothing.

Like everything, Steven Hawking has found an angle which attracts the attention of a lot of people and he will reap the financial benefit from it. He will have his followers.

There is even now an organisation in the states where you can already book your place on a shuttle to mars, and it costs plenty, for the day the world ends.

Even this guy has a lot of followers and he is reaping the financial benefit from it.

Every reason will have believers, who become followers, luckily not all follow and believe in the same.

 

 

WWFisherman
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Simen wrote: Glenn all good and well. Lets say man evolved out of an atom and dust and whatever.

Either I am missing the point here or you are. Read above in blue. Even a dinosaur is life and was alive. Where did it come from.

To this living day we got it right to copy a lot of things, I mean we even make diamond from carbon, but not one scientist has or come close to copy LIFE ot a living something.

Ans so it will go on--remember a scientist can read and write and some of them even think, and thats where it stays, they think and anticipate and predict and say in all probability, but they have proven nothing.

Like everything, Steven Hawking has found an angle which attracts the attention of a lot of people and he will reap the financial benefit from it. He will have his followers.

There is even now an organisation in the states where you can already book your place on a shuttle to mars, and it costs plenty, for the day the world ends.

Even this guy has a lot of followers and he is reaping the financial benefit from it.

Every reason will have believers, who become followers, luckily not all follow and believe in the same.

Hey Simen, I'll try and reply to your questions, not from a point of challenging your beliefs but explaining why I challenged mine. I'm not sure I understand your point on scientists creating life, though. You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.

I think one of the misconceptions that a lot of religious people have is that science is out to disprove that God exists. It isn't. Science doesn't have an agenda. All that scientists have said is that there is no evidence that a god exists.

I think this chart sums up the fundamental difference between science and religion for me:



Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 09:54 am by WWFisherman

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Like your arguments WWfisherman!

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WWFisherman wrote: Simen wrote: Glenn all good and well. Lets say man evolved out of an atom and dust and whatever.

Either I am missing the point here or you are. Read above in blue. Even a dinosaur is life and was alive. Where did it come from.

To this living day we got it right to copy a lot of things, I mean we even make diamond from carbon, but not one scientist has or come close to copy LIFE ot a living something.

Ans so it will go on--remember a scientist can read and write and some of them even think, and thats where it stays, they think and anticipate and predict and say in all probability, but they have proven nothing.

Like everything, Steven Hawking has found an angle which attracts the attention of a lot of people and he will reap the financial benefit from it. He will have his followers.

There is even now an organisation in the states where you can already book your place on a shuttle to mars, and it costs plenty, for the day the world ends.

Even this guy has a lot of followers and he is reaping the financial benefit from it.

Every reason will have believers, who become followers, luckily not all follow and believe in the same.

Hey Simen, I'll try and reply to your questions, not from a point of challenging your beliefs but explaining why I challenged mine. I'm not sure I understand your point on scientists creating life, though. You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.

I think one of the misconceptions that a lot of religious people have is that science is out to disprove that God exists. It isn't. Science doesn't have an agenda. All that scientists have said is that there is no evidence that a god exists.

I think this chart sums up the fundamental difference between science and religion for me:





You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.


No, not for one minute am I saying that the reason that we cannot create life is for not believing in God.

I am also not saying that they have to create life to prove that there is'nt a God.

Also I have no believe that scientist have a hidden agenda to prove the existence or non existence of God.

I am merely stating that they cannot without any reasonable doubt prove that man evolved from an atom or dust. Nor can they explain where the dinosaur came from.

I am stating a FACT that no person on earth and in the history of earth has and could prove that God did not create earth and all animals and plants and life as we know it.

I am a firm believer in COMMON SENSE. So should for arguments sake we accept the big bang theory and man evolved from an atom.

That should mean that only one thing should have evolved and all would be alike.

Same DNA ( scientists have proven DNA going back millions of years ) would then be found in all living things, or at least some connection.

Now, why aren't all the animals eg just Lions. Why aren't all the plants just roses?

Or was the bang so big that not only one form of life started but 100 000 different animals 1000 000 different plants, white people, black people, etc, some Asain with different looks.

Your theory is now more and more starting to sound like the worlds biggest "BANG" that ever existed.

All that scientists have said is that there is no evidence that a god exists.

Lets agree to disagree-- I agree with there evidence ( not beliefs), but they haven't proven where life started either.

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I just wrote a point-by-point reply to your post, Simen, and when I posted it it came up blank…

I'll have to find the motivation again later ;)

Basically I agreed with a few things you said, i.e. science can't prove beyond doubt how the world was created but it doesn't claim to, either. It only puts forward theories that are currently supported by the evidence on hand. Science also cannot disprove the hand of a superior being in all of this. There are many scientists with religious beliefs.

Where I disagree with you is your interpretation of the big bang theory, which I think you've oversimplified, especially with regards to your argument on why all animals would look the same and the DNA would be universal.

Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 10:52 am by WWFisherman

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WWFisherman wrote: I just wrote a point-by-point reply to your post, Simen, and when I posted it it came up blank…

I'll have to find the motivation again later ;)

Basically I agreed with a few things you said, i.e. science can't prove beyond doubt how the world was created but it doesn't claim to, either. It only puts forward theories that are currently supported by the evidence on hand. Science also cannot disprove the hand of a superior being in all of this. There are many scientists with religious beliefs.

Where I disagree with you is your interpretation of the big bang theory, which I think you've oversimplified, especially with regards to your argument on why all animals would look the same and the DNA would be universal.

Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

I agree that I oversimplified it. Again let common sense prevail.

In the ice age, we agree that there was more than one type of dinosaur with more than one type of plant.

Scientists also say that the continents as we know them today was all one. lets for arguments sake agree it was ( as said before)

Now there's  questions before the big bang thats not answered.

 Where did the animals come from that were there before the bang?

Did ONLY man not exist at that time? Or was there some sort of man already.

Again lets take that as true.

Now the bang happens.

All live came to and end.

Man evolved from whatever. And the animals? Plants? plants maybe as seed could be buried/stored for a long time before growing again.

Then where is there other theory that man grew out of the ape.

There are 2 versions  (and you could go check) of the scientists explanation. Some say there was man during the time of the dinosaur ( before the bang), some say man evolved after the bang.

Which is which.


Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Please understand that I am not trying you to change your belief, only you can do it. I am merely putting forward my beliefs and my argument as to how and why I believe.

 

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Simen wroteI agree that I oversimplified it. Again let common sense prevail.

In the ice age, we agree that there was more than one type of dinosaur with more than one type of plant.

Scientists also say that the continents as we know them today was all one. lets for arguments sake agree it was ( as said before)

Now there's  questions before the big bang thats not answered.

 Where did the animals come from that were there before the bang?

Did ONLY man not exist at that time? Or was there some sort of man already.

Again lets take that as true.

Now the bang happens.

All live came to and end.

Man evolved from whatever. And the animals? Plants? plants maybe as seed could be buried/stored for a long time before growing again.

Then where is there other theory that man grew out of the ape.

There are 2 versions  (and you could go check) of the scientists explanation. Some say there was man during the time of the dinosaur ( before the bang), some say man evolved after the bang.

Which is which.


Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Please understand that I am not trying you to change your belief, only you can do it. I am merely putting forward my beliefs and my argument as to how and why I believe.

 

When I refer to the Big Bang, I'm talking about the beginning of our universe, not life on earth, I think maybe you're referring to the asteroid impact on earth that wiped out the dinosaurs so we're probably debating different events here…

Anyway, regardless of our different views on how fish evolved on this planet, at least the one thing we have in common is that we love catching them ;)

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Chris Shelton wrote:
Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 9 - 11;
'And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into ONE place, and let the dry land appear:

'And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.'

So then, if you believe that, then while there may well have been life on other planets before the so called gathering of the waters, which is now called Seas....then you have to believe that with this gathering of ALL the waters under the heaven, that all life was relocated to Earth!

So, believing this with my whole heart,my belief t I have just justified hat there is no life out there....which is already far more than any believer in aliens can do!




@ Chris - If I can maybe just add something there..

The way I see it, is that the waters mentioned here, are the waters here on our earth (while God was still busy creating Earth) as well as the "sky" or heaven. That will be OUR sky/heaven and not the rest of the Universe's. What He was busy doing, was  seperating the land and the water on earth. 

So, in other words, God was creating the Earth planet and what is on it. There is no mention of Mars, Jupiter etc in the rest of the Universe.

That is why I believe that God also created the other planets, but on another day.

That is just how I see and understand it but then, the Bible is interpreted very different ways..:)

 

 

 

 


 

silver_foxx
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WWFisherman wrote: Simen wroteI agree that I oversimplified it. Again let common sense prevail.

In the ice age, we agree that there was more than one type of dinosaur with more than one type of plant.

Scientists also say that the continents as we know them today was all one. lets for arguments sake agree it was ( as said before)

Now there's  questions before the big bang thats not answered.

 Where did the animals come from that were there before the bang?

Did ONLY man not exist at that time? Or was there some sort of man already.

Again lets take that as true.

Now the bang happens.

All live came to and end.

Man evolved from whatever. And the animals? Plants? plants maybe as seed could be buried/stored for a long time before growing again.

Then where is there other theory that man grew out of the ape.

There are 2 versions  (and you could go check) of the scientists explanation. Some say there was man during the time of the dinosaur ( before the bang), some say man evolved after the bang.

Which is which.


Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Please understand that I am not trying you to change your belief, only you can do it. I am merely putting forward my beliefs and my argument as to how and why I believe.

 

When I refer to the Big Bang, I'm talking about the beginning of our universe, not life on earth, I think maybe you're referring to the asteroid impact on earth that wiped out the dinosaurs so we're probably debating different events here…

Anyway, regardless of our different views on how fish evolved on this planet, at least the one thing we have in common is that we love catching them ;)


 

Oh man...this is priceless....::rofl:

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Simen wrote: You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.




 

Man is in the process already ...

1. Remember Dolly the 'Sheep' (1997) ?? And amoungst mice & cow's and other animal's the most recent has been ferret's that have been successfully cloned.

2. Human cloning is not allowed at present, but it can be done.. I think this is a really bad idea to clone a human... Look at the consequence's this will lead to ...

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Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.




 

Man is in the process already ...

1. Remember Dolly the 'Sheep' (1997) ?? And amoungst mice & cow's and other animal's the most recent has been ferret's that have been successfully cloned.

2. Human cloning is not allowed at present, but it can be done.. I think this is a really bad idea to clone a human... Look at the consequence's this will lead to ...


You are very wrong here, cloning means duplicating cutting in half/quaters not creating.

Excisting item only made more.

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Simen wrote: Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.




 

Man is in the process already ...

1. Remember Dolly the 'Sheep' (1997) ?? And amoungst mice & cow's and other animal's the most recent has been ferret's that have been successfully cloned.

2. Human cloning is not allowed at present, but it can be done.. I think this is a really bad idea to clone a human... Look at the consequence's this will lead to ...


You are very wrong here, cloning means duplicating cutting in half/quaters not creating.

Excisting item only made more.


The concept can be seen in different way's... Have a look at it this way ..

 

Human cloning is the creation of a genetically identical copy of a human (not usually referring to monozygotic multiple births), human cell, or human tissue. The ethics of cloning is an extremely controversial issue. The term is generally used to refer to artificial human cloning; human clones in the form of identical twins are commonplace, with their cloning occurring during the natural process of reproduction. There are two commonly discussed types of human cloning: therapeutic cloning and reproductive cloning. Therapeutic cloning involves cloning cells from an adult for use in medicine and is an active area of research, while reproductive cloning would involve making cloned humans. Such reproductive cloning has not been performed and is illegal in many countries. A third type of cloning called replacement cloning is a theoretical possibility, and would be a combination of therapeutic and reproductive cloning. Replacement cloning would entail the replacement of an extensively damaged, failed, or failing body through cloning followed by whole or partial brain transplant.

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Therapeutic cloning involves cloning cells from an adult for use in medicine and is an active area of research, while reproductive cloning would involve making cloned humans

No, I dont see it in a different way. Read what you have written (involves cloning cells from an adult  ).

If there is an adult so there is already existing life.

Dont get confused with changing/altering,cloning, etc, life. We have been talking about CREATING life.

Glenn
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I have managed to locate Stephen Hawking's ?Into The Universe Clip's.. I think trying to explain this all is to much for anybody to understand never mind me... Enjoy!!

The first 5 part's are from Time Travel ...











 

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Simen wrote: Therapeutic cloning involves cloning cells from an adult for use in medicine and is an active area of research, while reproductive cloning would involve making cloned humans

No, I dont see it in a different way. Read what you have written (involves cloning cells from an adult  ).

If there is an adult so there is already existing life.

Dont get confused with changing/altering,cloning, etc, life. We have been talking about CREATING life.

You have a point there and i agree.. but It's still another life.. a heart beat.. a breath.. a movement.. making a difference in life.     :)

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Yeah I dont think cloning qualifies as creating life, just transferring or 'copying' the life force from one living being to another.

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This is how the world start'd with 'The Big Bang' It is very interesting stuff.. Try'd to explain it, but it was too much to detail ..

 



















Glenn -

 

 

 

 

 

Glenn
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silver_foxx wrote: Yeah I dont think cloning qualifies as creating life, just transferring or 'copying' the life force from one living being to another.

If man can clone now .. Man will create life at a later stage.. it is only a matter of time I guess..

I remember a guy.. cant remember his name.. (Some top notch smart person) 20 or less year's ago who laugh'd when he was told that in the future.. you could pay everything by a 'card'

I wonder what this guy think's now...   :lol:1

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Glenn wrote: silver_foxx wrote: Yeah I dont think cloning qualifies as creating life, just transferring or 'copying' the life force from one living being to another.

If man can clone now .. Man will create life at a later stage.. it is only a matter of time I guess..

I remember a guy.. cant remember his name.. (Some top notch smart person) 20 or less year's ago who laugh'd when he was told that in the future.. you could pay everything by a 'card'

I wonder what this guy think's now...   :lol:1


If man can clone now .. Man will create life at a later stage.. it is only a matter of time I guess

Glenn, no arguments there, but remember what we are discussing now is --how was life created yesterday and not how we will be able to create life tomorrow.

Wife is next to watching the videos, I am just catching some comment here and there. So far all I can say is that Hawkins watched to many science fiction movies.

Most of his comment start with

--If we could

==If it was possible

--Should we be able

--If we could

--Suppose

Dont make any assumptions on my comment about the videos yet as I will watch them in detail later and give you my opinion.

 

 

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@ Simen

 

Are you only at the time travel part yet??

The best part's are the big bang (9 parts)

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Will watch later and give u my opinion..

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Sarah de Jager wrote: Will watch later and give u my opinion..
Thank's .. you will find it's very interesting . The 9part series. 'Big Bang'

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my, eyes hurt from reading all these long replyes, but its very interesting

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F.L.A.S.H wrote: my, eyes hurt from reading all these long replyes, but its very interesting

Interesting & controversial (Thank's for taking the time)

It's a mind boggling concept to understand, Please watch (If you have time) the 9 part's of the 'Big bang' .. And then you might understand how life would/may/could of been formed..

I do know this is hard to take in if you are a strong hearted god follower and wont listen to other reason's or explanation's on how earth would/may/could of been started or formed so to speak.

Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 10:24 pm by Glenn

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Kay Guys and Guyesses...

I am going into the them daar dunes now under the full moon!

I will smoke some zol and court a wolf (if there is Zol here :) )

JOKING!

And tomorrow you will have ALL the answers ?

MAN knows NOTHING!

Simen is right!  And scroll back and read my posts!

This is a GOOD lounge topic but going nowhere....we are like dust:

"What is a MAN who has but a breath in him? "

 

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thika wrote:
This is a GOOD lounge topic but going nowhere....we are like dust:


 


Apparently we where made from dust Thika  ..  ::S

Have you watched the 9 part serie's the big bang? I think you should thika & give it a chance..

I'm waiting on Simen's reply ...

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Glenn wrote: thika wrote:
This is a GOOD lounge topic but going nowhere....we are like dust:


 


Apparently we where made from dust Thika  ..  ::S

Have you watched the 9 part serie's the big bang? I think you should thika & give it a chance..

I'm waiting on Simen's reply ...

Havn't forgotton, just a bit busy but will get to it.

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Simen wrote: Glenn wrote: thika wrote:
This is a GOOD lounge topic but going nowhere....we are like dust:


 


Apparently we where made from dust Thika  ..  ::S

Have you watched the 9 part serie's the big bang? I think you should thika & give it a chance..

I'm waiting on Simen's reply ...

Havn't forgotton, just a bit busy but will get to it.

Ok, no probs.. You should find all your answer's on all the 9part's , forget the time travel thing'' I wasn't that bothered with that one.

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EK HET AL DIE DELE GEKYK WANT EK VIND DIT INTERESANT,NIE DAT EK ALLE SNERT GLO NIE. .INDIEN DAAR DIE "BIG BANG"WAS WIE HET DIT GE-TRIGGER,AS DIT ATOME WAS MOES IETS OF IEMAND MAGTIG DIT VERSTEUR HET OM DIE REAKSIE TE BEGIN.EVELUSIE GLO EK OOK NIE WANT GOD HET DIE MENS NA SY BEELD GESKAPE,SO WAAR DIE AAP STORIES INKOM?,MISKIEN DIEGENE WAT DIT GLO SE VOOROUERS.EK WIL NIE ENIGIEMAND SE GELOOF AAN KRAP NIE DIT IS SLEGS MY MENING. VERDER DAT DAAR LEWE OP ANDER PLANETE KAN WEES SAL EK SE DIS MOONTLIK MAAR NIE IN ONS STERRESTELSEL NIE.KLONING IS OOK SO OUD SOOS DIE DIE WERELD SELF, AS EK REG ONTHOU WAT EK OOR GELEES HET, HET DIT DIE UITWISSING VAN DIE INKAS VEROORSAAK,DIT VAT EK OOK MET N KNIPPIE SOUT ,WANT PAPIER DRA DIE ST... WAT DAAROP GESMEER OF GESKRYF WORD.

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@ Carlic Bait

Dankie, dit is intersant...

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Some readings on the subject which I found interesting to follow:

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Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God
Henry F. Schaefer III

Dr. "Fritz" Schaefer is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize and was recently cited as the third most quoted chemist in the world. "The significance and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it!' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." --U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 23, 1991.

This is the second part of a two-part lecture given by Dr. Schaefer. Part 1 of this lecture appeared in The Real Issue, November/December, 1994.

We shall begin with the philosophical aspects of A Brief History of Time, which really explains why it has sold so many copies. Stephen Hawking has stated, "It is difficult to discuss the beginning of the universe without mentioning the concept of God. My work on the origin of the universe is on the borderline between science and religion, but I try to stay on the scientific side of the border. It is quite possible that God acts in ways that cannot be described by scientific laws, but in that case, one would just have to go by personal belief."

When asked whether he believed that science and Christianity were competing world views, Hawking replied, "...then Newton would not have discovered the law of gravity." He knew that Newton had strong religious convictions.

A Brief History of Time makes wonderfully ambiguous statements such as, "Even if there is only one possible unified theory [here he's talking about the unification of quantum mechanics with an understanding of gravity], it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?"(p. 174). I love that statement.

Hawking pokes fun at Albert Einstein for not believing in quantum mechanics. When asked why he didn't believe in quantum mechanics, Einstein would say things like, "Well, God doesn't play dice with human beings"(p. 56). Hawking's response is that God not only plays with dice, He sometimes throws them where they can't be seen.

The first time I read A Brief History of Time, for the first 122 pages I thought, "This is a great book; Hawking is building a splendid case for creation by an intelligent being." But then everything changes and this magnificent cosmological epic becomes adulterated by poor philosophy and theology.

For example, he writes, "These laws may have originally been decreed by God, but it appears that he has since left the universe to evolve according to them and does not now intervene in it" (p. 122). The grounds on which Hawking claims "it appears" are unstated and what happens is that a straw God is set up that is certainly not the God of Biblical history. What follows is a curious mixture of deism and the ubiquitous God of the gaps.

Now, lest anyone be confused, let me state that Hawking strenuously denies charges that he is an atheist. When he is accused of that he really gets angry and says that such assertions are not true at all. He is an agnostic or deist or something more along those lines. He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism.

One of the most famous and quoted statements in the book is, "So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator [the cosmological argument]. But if the universe is really completely self- contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?"(pp. 140- 1).

So Hawking is uncertain about his belief in a god of his own creation. I cannot resist the conclusion that Stephen Hawking's god is too small.

At the end of the book he states, "However, if we do discover a complete theory. . . then we would know the mind of God"(p. 175). I'm sympathetic to this statement but I think he's claiming a bit much. I would modify it to say that if we had a unified, complete theory, we would know a lot more about the mind of God.
The Anthropic Principle

I must say something here about the anthropic principle: there are a number of scientific parameters or constants, any one of which, if changed just a little bit would make the earth uninhabitable by human beings. A book that I strongly recommend is by Hugh Ross, The Creator and the Cosmos. He has a substantial discussion of the anthropic principle and demonstrates why many physicists and astronomers have considered the possibility that the universe not only was divinely caused, but in fact divinely designed.

One such person is the pantheistic astronomer, George Greenstein, who makes this statement: "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency, or rather Agency, must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a supreme being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially created the cosmos for our benefit?"

I think Greenstein has gone a little too far in the other direction. I do not think we have proof of the existence of God but I think we do have, in the big bang understanding, some good evidence for the existence of God.

Others have commented on this evidence. A book I recommend is Dreams of a Final Theory by Steven Weinberg. He doesn't have God in the title, but God is discussed in the book. He tells the story about a poem by the Venerable Bede, a religious person of the Middle Ages. In the poem, Bede talks about the banqueting hall being our ordinary existence and Weinberg's comment on this is, "It is an almost irresistible temptation to believe with the Venerable Bede that there must be something for us outside the banqueting hall." There must be something beyond materialism.

Of course this view is echoed in the New Testament. For example, Paul the Apostle wrote, "Ever since the creation of the world, God's eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things He has made"(Romans 1:20). This is exactly what Weinberg is talking about-that almost irresistible temptation.
Atheism

It is very rare that a physical scientist is truly an atheist. Why is this true? Freeman Dyson, a Princeton faculty member, has said, "Nature has been kinder to us than we had any right to expect."

Martin Rees, one of Hawking's colleagues at Cambridge, stated, "The possibility of life as we know it depends on the values of a few basic, physical constants and is in some respects remarkably sensitive to their numerical values. Nature does exhibit remarkable coincidences."

Some scientists express surprise at so many accidental occurrences. However, that astonishment quickly disappears when one sees divine purpose instead of arbitrariness in the laws of nature.

Against overwhelming logic, some atheists continue to claim that the universe and human life were created by chance. A reply to this argument has been developed by the philosopher, William Lane Craig. The atheist's argument states that since we're here, we know this must have all happened by material forces. Craig's counter-argument states,

Suppose a dozen sharp-shooters are sent to execute a prisoner by firing squad. They all shoot a number of rounds in that direction, but the prisoner escapes unharmed. The prisoner could conclude, since he is alive, that all the sharp-shooters missed by some extremely unlikely chance. He may wish to attribute his survival to some remarkable piece of good luck. But he would be far more rational to conclude that the guns were loaded with blanks or that the sharp-shooters had deliberately missed. Not only is life itself overwhelmingly improbable, but its appearance, almost immediately, perhaps in as short a period as 10 million years following the solidification and cooling of our once molten planet, defies explanation by conventional physical and chemical laws.

Hawking's No Boundary Proposal

Let us return to Hawking's no boundary proposal-the universe as a wave function, popping into existence 15-20 billion years ago. The use of imaginary time is a powerful mathematical trick that is used on occasion by theoretical chemists and physicists. My best friend at Berkeley, William Miller, in 1969 used imaginary time to understand the dynamics of chemical reactions and it made him a household word. It is a powerful tool.

In Hawking and Hartle's no boundary proposal, the notion that the universe has neither beginning nor end is something that exists in mathematical terms only. In real time, which is what we as human beings are confined to rather than in Hawking's use of imaginary time, there will always be a singularity, that is, a beginning of time.

Among his contradictory statements in A Brief History of Time, Hawking actually concedes this. "When one goes back to the real time in which we live, however, there will still appear to be singularities . . . ," he wrote. "In real time, the universe has a beginning and an end at singularities that form a boundary to space-time and at which the laws of science breaks down"(p. 139). Only if we live in imaginary time would we encounter no singularities. So here he has really answered his own question.

Science is primarily concerned with facts, not motive, and thus a complete scientific description of the creation does not rule out a providential account at the same time. William Paley's famous argument suggests that if you're taking a walk in the woods and you find a watch on the path, you don't conclude that the watch just assembled itself, despite the fact that we can take the watch apart, look at every single part and completely understand how it works. We look at the watch on the path and we prudently conclude that it was designed by some higher intelligence.

In A Brief History of Time, Hawking states, "If the no boundary proposal is correct, he [God] had no freedom at all to choose initial conditions"(p. 174). This statement is a leap into irrationality. Why does Hawking find, within the functioning of the universe, aspects that appear to him to be limitations of God's power? This stems not from any attitude of an infinite God, but rather from the attributes of finite man. Namely, we as human beings are able to scientifically discern characteristics of the Creator only as they are related to that which is created, that which we can observe. This limitation of ours immediately reduces what might be infinite to the finiteness of our existence.

Of course Biblically there is no problem in accepting divine constraints to divine option, if the Creator chooses to run the universe according to His stated and established laws. Divine tenacity to His own laws is, of course, the very essence of the Biblical God.

Another of Hawking's controversial statements needs to be addressed. Although it is not original with him, it is this: "We are such insignificant creatures on a minor planet of a very average star in the outer suburb of one of a hundred billion galaxies. So it is difficult to believe in a God that would care about us or even notice our existence."

My response to that statement by Hawking, and to others that have said this over the years, is that that's a silly thing to say. There isn't any evidence to date that life exists anywhere else in the universe. Human beings, thus far, appear to be the most advanced species in the universe. Maybe God does care about us! Where Hawking surveys the cosmos and concludes that man's defining characteristic is obscurity, I consider the same data and conclude that humankind is very special.
Scientist Believers

Does everyone agree with Stephen Hawking's opinion on these matters? The answer is no. Alan Lightman, a MIT professor, said in his book Origins: The Lives and Worlds of Modern Cosmologists (Harvard University Press, 1990), "Contrary to popular myths, scientists appear to have the same range of attitudes about religious matters as does the general public."

This fact can be established either from anecdote or from statistical data. Sigma Xi, the scientific honorary society, ran a large poll a few years ago which showed that, on any given Sunday, around 46 percent of all Ph.D. scientists are in church; for the general population the figure is 47 percent. So, whatever influences people in their beliefs about God, it doesn't appear to have much to do with having a Ph.D. in science.

There are many prominent counter-examples to Stephen Hawking. One is a colleague of mine at Berkeley for 18 years, Charlie Townes. Townes won the Nobel Prize for discovering the maser. One statement he made differs greatly from Hawking's view; he said, "In my view, the question of origin seems to be left unanswered if we explore from a scientific view alone. Thus, I believe there is a need for some religious or metaphysical explanation. I believe in the concept of God and in His existence."

Arthur Schawlow is another Nobel Prize winner, a professor at Stanford who identifies himself as a Christian. He states, "We are fortunate to have the Bible and especially the New Testament which tells us so much about God in widely accessible human terms."

The other Cambridge professor of theoretical physics for much of Hawking's career was John Polkinghorn, a nuclear physicist. He left his chair of theoretical physics at Cambridge in 1979 and went to seminary to become a minister. Upon completing that, he had a parish church for awhile and now has recently come back to be the President of Queen's College at Cambridge. He states, "I take God very seriously indeed. I am a Christian believer and I believe that God exists and has made Himself known in human terms in Jesus Christ."

Probably the world's greatest observational cosmologist is Allan Sandage. Sandage works in Pasadena, California at the Carnegie Observatories. In 1991, he received a prize given by the Swedish academy that is given every six years in physics for cosmology and is worth the same amount of money as the Nobel prize (there is not a Nobel Prize given for cosmology). Sandage has even been called "the grand old man of cosmology" by the New York Times.

At the age of 50, Sandage became a Christian. He states in Lightman's book, Origins: The Lives and Worlds of Modern Cosmologists, "The nature of God is not to be found within any part of the findings of science. For that, one must turn to the Scriptures." When asked the famous question regarding whether it's possible to be a scientist and a Christian, Sandage replies, "Yes. The world is too complicated in all its parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone. I am convinced that the existence of life with all its order in each of its organisms is simply too well put together."

One of the persons closest to Stephen Hawking, whom you know if you've seen the movie about A Brief History of Time, is Donald Page. Page has had an excellent physics career in his own right, but he started to become famous as a post-doctoral fellow with Stephen Hawking. The Hawkings were not financially well-off in the years prior to his book and needed some help to keep going. So the post-doctoral fellows would come to live with the Hawkings. Donald Page did this for three years.

Page described these years in the book (the book about the film about the book!). He said, "I would usually get up around 7:15 or 7:30, take a shower, read in my Bible and pray. Then I would go down and get Stephen up. After breakfast, I would often tell him what I'd been reading in the Bible, hoping that this would eventually have some influence. I remember telling Stephen one story about how Jesus had seen the deranged man and how this man had these demons and the demons had been sent into a herd of swine. The swine then plunged over the edge of the cliff and into the sea. Stephen piped up and said, 'Well, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals would not like that story, would they?'"

Page stated, "I am a conservative Christian in the sense of pretty much taking the Bible seriously for what it says. Of course I know that certain parts are not intended to be read literally, so I am not precisely a literalist but I try to believe in the meaning, I think, it is intended to have."
The Limits of Science

A statement that I think gives some balance to all of this is by one of my scientific heroes, Erwin Schrodinger, after whom the most famous equation in science is named: the Schrodinger equation. I have spent a good bit of my professional life trying to solve this equation for atoms and molecules.

Toward the end of Schrodinger's career he made this statement, "I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us."

Schrodinger believed that science has limits; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.

Jane Hawking has commented on this aspect of her husband's work. "Stephen has the feelings that because everything is reduced to a rational, mathematical formula, that must be the truth," Jane explained. "He is delving into realms that really do matter to thinking people and, in a way, that can have a very disturbing effect on people-and he's not competent."

The irony of the story is that Hawking's professional life currently is devoted to telling a story about the cosmos in which all the elements which make his own life so fascinating-love, faith, courage and even creative imagination-disappear from view. Aspiring to know the mind of God, he can imagine nothing more interesting than a set of equations governing the motion of particles. I love these equations too, but they are not the be-all and end-all of life!

A unified field-theory would be an amazing, magnificent scientific accomplishment, of course. But to Hawking it is just a step toward a distant but attainable goal of what he calls "a complete understanding of the events around us, and of our own existence."(p. 169)

The way to this goal does not seem to require reading the Bible or Shakespeare, living in a variety of cultures, experiencing art, climbing mountains, or falling in love and having children. All it involves is the intellectually challenging task of developing better approximation methods.

Richard Feynman states in his last technical book, The Character of Physical Law, "Everything in physical science is a lot of protons, neutrons and electrons, while in daily life, we talk about men and history or beauty and hope. Which is nearer to God-beauty and hope or the fundamental laws? To stand at either end and to walk off that end of the pier only, hoping that out in that direction is a complete understanding, is a mistake." I would have to say that what Stephen Hawking has done is to walk off one end of that pier.
Some Conclusions

After evaluating all the cosmological evidence, Hugh Ross has come to a number of conclusions (The Fingerprint of God, pp. 181-2). With only minor modifications, I wholeheartedly concur:

1. A Creator must exist. The big bang ripples are clearly pointing to an ex nihilo creation consistent with the first few verses of the book of Genesis.

2. The Creator must have awesome power and wisdom. The quantity of material and the power resources within our universe are truly immense. The information, or intricacy, manifest in any part of the universe, and especially in a living organism, is beyond our ability to comprehend. And what we do see is only what God has shown us within our dimensions of space and time!

3. The Creator is loving. The simplicity, balance, order, elegance, and beauty seen throughout the creation demonstrate that God is loving rather than capricious. Further, the capacity and desire to nurture and to protect, seen in so many creatures, makes sense if their Creator possesses these same attributes. It is apparent that God cares for His creatures, for He has provided for their needs.

4. The Creator is just and requires justice. Inward reflection and outward investigation affirm that human beings have a conscience. The conscience reflects the reality of right and wrong and the necessity of obedience.

5. Each of us falls hopelessly short of the Creator's standard. We incur His displeasure when we violate any part of God's moral law in our actions, our words, and our thoughts. Who can keep his or her thoughts and attitudes pure for even an hour? If each person falls short of his or her own standards, how much more so of God's standards?

6. Because the Creator is loving, wise and powerful, He made a way to rescue us. When we come to a point of concern about our personal failings, we can begin to understand from the creation around us that God's love, wisdom, and power are sufficient to deliver us from our otherwise hopeless situation.

7. If we trust our lives totally to the Rescuer, Jesus Christ, we will be saved. The one and only path is to give up all human attempts to satisfy God's requirements and put our trust solely in Jesus Christ and in His means of redemption, namely, His death on the cross.

(Editor's note: This article is a transcript of a lecture Dr. Schaefer presented at the University of Colorado in the spring of 1994, sponsored by Christian Leadership and other campus ministries. Over 500 students and professors were present.)

Original article here:
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

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Big Bang Cosmology and Atheism
Why the Big Bang is No Help to Theists
by Quentin Smith


Since the mid-1960s, scientifically informed theists have been ecstatic because of Big Bang cosmology. Theists believe that the best scientific evidence that God exists is the evidence that the universe began to exist in an explosion about 15 billion years ago, an explosion called the Big Bang. Theists think it obvious that the universe could not have begun to exist uncaused. They argue that the most reasonable hypothesis is that the cause of the universe is God. This theory hinges on the assumption that it is obviously true that whatever begins to exist has a cause.

The most recent statement of this theist theory is in William Lane Craig's 1994 book Reasonable Faith.[1] In it Craig states his argument like this:

   1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
   2. The universe began to exist.
   3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.[2]

In a very interesting quote from this book he discusses the first premise and mentions me as one of the perverse atheists who deny the obviousness of this assumption:

    The first step is so intuitively obvious that I think scarcely anyone could sincerely believe it to be false. I therefore think it somewhat unwise to argue in favor of it, for any proof of the principle is likely to be less obvious than the principle itself. And as Aristotle remarked, one ought not to try to prove the obvious via the less obvious. The old axiom that "out of nothing, nothing comes" remains as obvious today as ever. When I first wrote The Kalam Cosmological Argument, I remarked that I found it an attractive feature of this argument that it allows the atheist a way of escape: he can always deny the first premise and assert the universe sprang into existence uncaused out of nothing. I figured that few would take this option, since I believed they would thereby expose themselves as persons interested only in academic refutation of the argument and not in really discovering the truth about the universe. To my surprise, however, atheists seem to be increasingly taking this route. For example, Quentin Smith, commenting that philosophers are too often adversely affected by Heidegger's dread of "the nothing," concludes that "the most reasonable belief is that we came from nothing, by nothing, and for nothing" - a nice ending to a sort of Gettysburg address of atheism, perhaps.[3]

A Baseless Assumption

I'm going to criticize this argument from scientific cosmology, which is the most popular argument that scientifically informed theists and philosophers are now using to argue that God exists.

Let's consider the first premise of the argument, that whatever has a beginning to its existence must have a cause. What reason is there to believe this causal principle is true? It's not self-evident; something is self-evident if and only if everyone who understands it automatically believes it. But many people, including leading theists such as Richard Swinburne, understand this principle very well but think it is false. Many philosophers, scientists, and indeed the majority of graduate and undergraduate students I've had in my classes think this principle is false. This principle is not self-evident, nor can this principle be deduced from any self-evident proposition. Therefore, there's no reason to think it's true. It is either false or it has the status of a statement that we do not know is true or false. At the very least, it is clear that we do not know that it is true.

Now suppose the theist retreats to a weaker version of this principle and says, "Whatever has a beginning to its existence has a cause." Now, this does not say that whatever has a beginning to its existence must have a cause; it allows that it is possible that some things begin to exist without a cause. So we don't need to consider it as a self-evident, necessary truth. Rather, according to the theists, we can consider it to be an empirical generalization based on observation.

But there is a decisive problem with this line of thinking. There is absolutely no evidence that it is true. All of the observations we have are of changes in things - of something changing from one state to another. Things move, come to a rest, get larger, get smaller, combine with other things, divide in half, and so on. But we have no observation of things coming into existence. For example, we have no observations of people coming into existence. Here again, you merely have a change of things. An egg cell and a sperm cell change their state by combining. The combination divides, enlarges, and eventually evolves into an adult human being. Therefore, I conclude that we have no evidence at all that the empirical version of Craig's statement, "Whatever begins to exist has a `cause'," is true. All of the causes we are aware of are changes in pre-existing materials. In Craig's and other theists' causal principle, "cause" means something entirely different: it means creating material from nothingness. It is pure speculation that such a strange sort of causation is even possible, let alone even supported in our observations in our daily lives.
An Uncaused Universe

But the more important point is this: not only is there no evidence for the theist's causal assumption, there's evidence against it. The claim that the beginning of our universe has a cause conflicts with current scientific theory. The scientific theory is called the Wave Function of the Universe. It has been developed in the past 15 years or so by Stephen Hawking, Andre Vilenkin, Alex Linde, and many others. Their theory is that there is a scientific law of nature called the Wave Function of the Universe that implies that it is highly probable that a universe with our characteristics will come into existence without a cause. Hawking's theory is based on assigning numbers to all possible universes. All of the numbers cancel out except for a universe with features that our universe possesses, such as containing intelligent organisms. This remaining universe has a very high probability - near 100% - of coming into existence uncaused.

Hawking's theory is confirmed by observational evidence. The theory predicts that our universe has evenly distributed matter on a large scale - that is, on the level of super-clusters of galaxies. It predicts that the expansion rate of our universe - our universe has been expanding ever since the Big Bang - would be almost exactly between the rate of the universe expanding forever and the rate where it expands and then collapses. It also predicts the very early area of rapid expansion near the beginning of the universe called "inflation." Hawking's theory exactly predicted what the COBE satellite discovered about the irregularities of the background radiation in the universe.[4]

So scientific theory that is confirmed by observational evidence tells us that the universe began without being caused. If you want to be a rational person and accept the results of rational inquiry into nature, then you must accept the fact that God did not cause the universe to exist. The universe exists uncaused, in accordance with the Wave Function law.

Now Stephen Hawking's theory dissolves any worries about how the universe could begin to exist uncaused. He supposes that there is a timeless space, a four-dimensional hypersphere, near the beginning of the universe. It is smaller than the nucleus of an atom. It is smaller than 10-33 centimeters in radius. Since it was timeless, it no more needs a cause than the timeless god of theism. This timeless hypersphere is connected to our expanding universe. Our universe begins smaller than an atom and explodes in a Big Bang, and here we are today in a universe that is still expanding.

Is it nonetheless possible that God could have caused this universe? No. For the Wave Function of the Universe implies that there is a 95% probability that the universe came into existence uncaused. If God created the universe, he would contradict this scientific law in two ways. First, the scientific law says that the universe would come into existence because of its natural, mathematical properties, not because of any supernatural forces. Second, the scientific law says that the probability is only 95% that the universe would come into existence. But if God created the universe, the probability would be 100% that it would come into existence because God is allpowerful. If God wills the universe to come into existence, his will is guaranteed to be 100% effective.

So contemporary scientific cosmology is not only not supported by any theistic theory, it is actually logically inconsistent with theism.

Original article here:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/smith_18_2.html

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"Science vs. Religion" discovers what scientists really think about religion

A book called SCIENCE VS. RELIGION What Scientists Really Think By Elaine Howard Ecklund

Americans are almost evenly divided between those who feel science conflicts with religion and those who don't. Both sides have scientific backers. Biologist Richard Dawkins rallies atheists by arguing that science renders religious faith unnecessary and irrational. Geneticist Francis S. Collins (before becoming NIH director) organized evangelical scientists to offer a vision of science and faith reinforcing each other.

Rice University sociologist Elaine Ecklund offers a fresh perspective on this debate in "Science vs. Religion." Rather than offering another polemic, she builds on a detailed survey of almost 1,700 scientists at elite American research universities -- the most comprehensive such study to date. These surveys and 275 lengthy follow-up interviews reveal that scientists often practice a closeted faith. They worry how their peers would react to learning about their religious views.

Fully half of these top scientists are religious. Only five of the 275 interviewees actively oppose religion. Even among the third who are atheists, many consider themselves "spiritual." One describes this spiritual atheism as being rooted in "wonder about the complexity and the majesty of existence," a sentiment many nonscientists -- religious or not -- would recognize. By not engaging with religion more fully and publicly, "the academy is really doing itself a big disservice," worries one scientist. As shown by conflicts over everything from evolution to stem cells to climate policy, breakdowns in communication between scientists and religious communities cause real problems, especially for scientists trying to educate increasingly religious college students.
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Religious groups -- creationist movements in particular -- are not without blame here. Creationist attacks on evolution "have polarized the public opinion such that you're either religious or you're a scientist!" a devout physicist complains. Indeed, the National Science Board recently spiked a report on American knowledge about evolution, claiming that it was too difficult to tell the difference between religious objections to evolution and questions raised about the state of the science.

Only through a genuine dialogue between scientists and the broader public can these divisions be bridged. To her credit, Ecklund avoids editorializing even while encouraging such dialogue. She gives voice to scientists, relaying and synthesizing their experience. Though "Science vs. Religion" is aimed at scientists, her myth-busting and her thoughtful advice can also benefit nonscientists. For Ecklund, the bottom line is recognizing and tolerating religious diversity, honestly discussing science's scope and limits, and openly exploring the disputed borders between scientific skepticism and religious faith.

Original article here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/28/AR2010052801856.html

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@ landshark

Thank's for your fab input.. I would just like to comment on 2 thing's ..

The report has a slight different view (1994) than it has now (2010) Obviously with time scale and knowledge etc. etc..

For Example:

My response to that statement by Hawking, and to others that have said this over the years, is that that's a silly thing to say. There isn't any evidence to date that life exists anywhere else in the universe. Human beings, thus far, appear to be the most advanced species in the universe. Maybe God does care about us! Where Hawking surveys the cosmos and concludes that man's defining characteristic is obscurity, I consider the same data and conclude that humankind is very special.
Scientist Believers



Hmmm .. I think your being a bit rational saying that we are the ONLY life form out there ??  :lol:1

 

For Example:

Science is primarily concerned with facts, not motive, and thus a complete scientific description of the creation does not rule out a providential account at the same time. William Paley's famous argument suggests that if you're taking a walk in the woods and you find a watch on the path, you don't conclude that the watch just assembled itself, despite the fact that we can take the watch apart, look at every single part and completely understand how it works. We look at the watch on the path and we prudently conclude that it was designed by some higher intelligence.

 

The above statement has a VERY good point.. And it does make one think.



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Hiya Glenn,

Yeah, I do think that there is a bit more knowledge available now compared to 1994 however, not much, it seems as if our mathematical systems are simply still too rudimentary and this is really hampering scientists to fully describe their theories.

What he said in 1994 is still relevant to Hawking’s view of the universe as a lot (most) of what Hawking is referring to in those episodes is still based on what he published in a Brief History of Time.

Also, I’m pretty sure that even with the little bit of new evidence one will not convince Prof. Schaefer to change his beliefs...

... not that I agree with his (Schaefer's) point of view but it is however the view of a scientist and for sure, it made me pose some questions around my own beliefs.

I think you will notice in the second article Prof. Smith it says completely the opposite.

I merely posted the first two to illustrate that even the most hard-core scientists have conflicting views on religion and this is confirmed by the last Science vs. Religion post.

Last edited on Mon May 31st, 2010 04:07 pm by landshark

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landshark wrote: Hiya Glenn,

Yeah, I do think that there is a bit more knowledge available now compared to 1994 however, not much, it seems as if our mathematical systems are simply still too rudimentary and this is really hampering scientists to fully describe their theories.

What he said in 1994 is still relevant to Hawking’s view of the universe as a lot (most) of what Hawking is referring to in those episodes is still based on what he published in a Brief History of Time.

Also, I’m pretty sure that even with the little bit of new evidence one will not convince Prof. Schaefer to change his beliefs...

... not that I agree with his (Schaefer's) point of view but it is however the view of a scientist and for sure, it made me pose some questions around my own beliefs.

I think you will notice in the second article Prof. Smith it says completely the opposite.

I merely posted the first two to illustrate that even the most hard-core scientists have conflicting views on religion and this is confirmed by the last Science vs. Religion post.



Indeed landshark .. They many not all agree on certain thing's.

How ever the world is still a pretty big place.. And I think no one even with out guess Or with out good evidence can really say 100% If god had anthing to do with the start and if even god exists himself? (That goes to your own belief's)

You could say that we all came out of the sea as fish and formed? And the other was came out of ape's? There is evidence that the two subject's above that I mentioned could be a posibility.. How ever if you look at certain aspects of the two I just mentioned, the fact's dull the theory somewhat.

I was just thinking the other day, and I don't think ANYONE out there can prove or describe where the wind come's from or what start's it???

Tho I have a theory, that it may be gases in the air hitting each other or something like that.

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Glenn wrote:
Indeed landshark .. They many not all agree on certain thing's.

How ever the world is still a pretty big place.. And I think no one even with out guess Or with out good evidence can really say 100% If god had anthing to do with the start and if even god exists himself? (That goes to your own belief's)

You could say that we all came out of the sea as fish and formed? And the other was came out of ape's? There is evidence that the two subject's above that I mentioned could be a posibility.. How ever if you look at certain aspects of the two I just mentioned, the fact's dull the theory somewhat.

I was just thinking the other day, and I don't think ANYONE out there can prove or describe where the wind come's from or what start's it???

Tho I have a theory, that it may be gases in the air hitting each other or something like that.

You could say that we all came out of the sea as fish and formed? And the other was came out of ape's?

Personally, I think Darwin pretty much nailed that one...

Wind...

I think that one is pretty much sussed out ... the cause and effect of the earth’s heat exchange is well documented...

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Glen,

Hawking is Gorilla sh!t!

Stop being influenced so much by him :)

Figure out with what God gave you AND him!

We know zulch and YOU must decide whether you accept non-proof or proof

And time is short..the earth is 4 600 MILLION years old! And you WILL die in your bed alone and soon, regardless of what Malema says, with only your own thoughts on this matter!

Hawkings will be wormshit by then and so will all of us before the ice even STARTS melting this cycle around! 

Go have an Ale !  :)

Thika

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Guys

Believe or dont believe....

This is from my regular contact with Author and Explorer Micheal Tellinger (ex South African Pharmacist) who has written one of many books. His articles allow your vision to expand.....

 "Slave Species of god" - Micheal Tellinger

Chromosome Fusion
 

Evidence of DNA manipulation in our distant past?
 

The Human Genome Project has dished up some real surprises to scientists. The first surprise was the vast percentage of the human DNA that is inactive. It is estimated that at least 97% of our DNA is in actual fact a waste of space, as it does not contain any active genes that actually carry the code for any of our physical makeup. Then within the genes there are Introns – parts that do not carry any code; and Exons - sections that carry some sort of genetic code. The full length of our DNA is made up of some 20 000 genes that have now been identified. These genes carry the blueprint for the structure of our entire body. What is very puzzling is the fact that Homo sapiens, as the supposed pinnacle if civilized evolution on this planet, should have such large parts of unused DNA. We seem to have the longest DNA molecule among all other species, but we use the smallest part of it in proport ion to the other species. In other words, all the other creatures use much more of their DNA than humans do. Some species use as much as 98% of their DNA.
 
This flies directly in the face of the principles of evolution. Humans should have the most complex and evolved DNA of all creatures, to have reached levels of civilization seemingly much higher than any other species on Earth over millions of years of evolution. What is even more curious is the predicted number of genes in species. The numbers seem to increase steadily from basic organisms to the most advanced. We would expect that humans should end up having most genes, but strangely this is not the case. Here are some examples of the predictions for total number of genes in species. Fruit Fly 21 000; Zebrafish 50 000; Chicken 76 000; Mouse 81 000; Chimp 130 000; Human 68 000.
 
Can you see the problem here? The Chimp is supposed to be our closest know genetic relative and yet it has almost twice as many genes as humans. New research has revealed that Dolphin DNA is very closely related to humans. This will not be surprising to thos who have studied the work of Drunvalo Melchiezedek.

But then we get to the anomaly of the chromosomes. Our DNA is broken up into 23 pairs of chromosomes. By comparison, all apes have 24 pairs. One would expect that Homo erectus, our immediate evolutionary precursor would then also have had 24 chromosome pairs.
 
In April 2005, researchers from the National Human Genome Research Institute announced that "A detailed analysis of chromosomes 2 and 4 has detected the largest "gene deserts" known in the human genome and uncovered more evidence that human chromosome 2 arose from the fusion of two ancestral ape chromosomes" as reported in Nature. It is also the second largest chromosome we possess and it seems to make no sense why 2 primordial chromosomes should have merged to make us human, if this new chromosome gives us no apparent advantage for survival.
 
So when we read in the Sumerian tablets that humans were cloned as a sub-species between Homo erectus and a more advanced human-like species that arrived on Earth some 445 000 years ago, it suddenly makes a little bit more sense. The tablets describe how our maker removed certain parts of the "Tree of life" to trim the ability of the new "creature" and how they struggled to make the perfect "primitive worker" so that it could understand commands but not be too smart to question their existence. Similar suggestions of genetic cloning are made in The Koran and Hindu Laws of Manu. 
 
The Koran:

•         Ya Sin: "Is man not aware that We created him from a little germ?"

•         The Believers - God says almost verbatim what the Sumerian tablets tell us. "We first created man from an essence of clay; then placed him a living germ in a secure enclosure. The germ we made a clot of blood, and the clot a lump of flesh. This we fashioned into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh…"

Laws of Manu:

•         19. But from minute body (-framing) particles of these seven very powerful Purushas springs this (world), the perishable from the imperishable.

•         20. Among them each succeeding (element) acquires the quality of the preceding one, and whatever place (in the sequence) each of them occupies, even so many qualities it is declared to possess.
 
Notice the reference to "We" by the creator. The cloning of humans as a more primitive worker or "lulu amelu" suddenly does not seem so far fetched and the strange genetic anomalies seem to support some genetic manipulation in our distant past. The modern-day researchers go further to say that this "fusion" of our chromosome 2, is what makes us human.

Are we getting closer to proving that humans were created by his MAKER as slaves to work in the early gold mines on Earth? It certainly seems like it.
 
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Michael Tellinger.

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The Hexagon:
 
This ruin has become the subject of much research and measurement by Johan Heine. It features prominently in our new book Temples Of The African Gods. There are multiple alignments with the cardinal geographical points. The perfect hexagon is formed by extending the length of the flattened edge across the top right side into the circle. This has a very important significance since it suggests that the architects had a good understanding of particle physics and sacred geometry, since the hexagon is just a flattened perspective of a Star Tetrahedron. It is directly linked to advanced ancient knowledge. The Star Tetrahedron is a very important structure in the study of sacred geometry. Leading physicists believe that this is the fundamental structure of all matter in the universe.
Notice the completely eroded and ruined walls and structures around the site. This indicates that it was originally a much older structure that was rebuilt or maintained after the other structures around it became obsolete. When viewed from certain angles some distance away, the completely eroded remains of a much larger complex settlement is clearly visible. 
 
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Discovering the Oldest Man-made Structures on Earth.
A 10-part article by Michael Tellinger                                  June 2009

Part 1 of 10

Exposing the Lost City of ENKI
 
Scholars have told us that the first civilisation on Earth emerged between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates in a land called Sumer some 6000 years ago. Recent archaeological findings suggest that the Sumerians may have inherited some of their knowledge and symbolisms from an earlier civilisation that emerged many thousands of years earlier in southern Africa – the cradle of humankind. The constant references to southern Africa in the Sumerian texts as a ‘time before time’ leaves very little doubt that this was the case.
Why have we been so resistant to this information?
Is it our arrogance?
Or are we just scared of change?

The discovery of the oldest statue of the Hawk Head of Horus, about 260,000 years old; petroglyphs of winged disks with a cross, and two pyramids aligned to Adam’s Calendar and the rise of Orion, are forcing us to rewrite human history. Let us cast the dogma of our existing knowledge aside and embrace the new evidence.

 
Adam’s Calendar – Should actually  be called ENKI’s calendar. The flagship ruin at the centre of the largest and most mysterious ancient city on Earht.. The Sumerian tablets tell us that this was a special place of observation built by ENKI in the deep ABZU (South Africa) around 260,000 years ago. Before the ADAMU was created.

When I wrote and released ‘Slave Species of god’ I never realised the kind of impact it would have on people all over the world. I am quite overwhelmed to have received feedback from readers in over 20 countries, describing how it has changed their lives and allowed them to question without fear of being punished by some invisible old man in the sky. But the biggest surprise has been meeting Johan Heine at one of my talks which opened up the floodgates of the next phase of my research.

When Johan first introduced me to the ancient stone ruins of southern Africa, I had no idea of the incredible discoveries we would make in the year or two that followed. The photographs, artefacts and evidence we have accumulated points unquestionably to a lost and never-before-seen civilisation that predates all others – not by just a few hundred years, or a few thousand years… but many thousands of years. These discoveries are so staggering that they will not be easily digested by the mainstream historical and archaeological fraternity, as we have already experienced. It will require a complete paradigm shift in how we view our human history.

I see myself as a fairly open-minded chap but I will admit that it took me well over a year for the penny to drop, and for me to realise that we are actually dealing with the oldest structures ever built by humans on Earth.

The main reason for this is that we have been taught that nothing of significance has ever come from southern Africa. That the powerful civilisations all emerged in Sumeria and Egypt and other places. We are told that until the settlement of the BANTU people from the north, which was supposed to have started sometime in the 12th century AD, this part of the world was filled by hunter gatherers and so-called Bushmen, who did not make any major contributions in technology or civilisation.

Little did we realise that long before Egypt and long before Sumeria, there was a huge ancient city in what the Sumerian tablets call the ABZU (southern Africa). The lost and the first city of ENKI – the Sumerian deity and creator of humankind who was responsible for cloning the species we call Homo sapiens. ABZU is often incorrectly translated as “HELL” by those who grapple with the true meaning of mythology. This is far from the truth because the ABZU was simply known as the land below the equator, where the gold came from. Sumerian tablets tell us clearly that ENKI established a base in the ABZU (southern Africa). This base grew into a very large ancient city occupied by the early human slaves who toiled in the gold mines.

We believe we have now discovered this large city he created. At its peak it was larger than modern-day Johannesburg, covering over 20,000 square kilometres. It consists of well over 100,000 stone ruins still today. These were linked by ancient roads and places of work and worship. ENKI controlled his gold mining operations from here and the fortress of Great Zimbabwe was his headquarters. The evidence of gold mining is everywhere in this part of the world and not only do historic records point to this as being the first place that gold was extracted by humans, new scientific research is there to support it.

Our research has shown that the ancient ruins of South Africa and Zimbabwe go back to around 260,000 years the very first appearance of humans on Earth. I will take you on a journey of discovery as we experienced it over the past 2 years, since late 2007.

End of part 1.
 
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[size=Part 2 of 10
A 10-part article by Michael Tellinger
          ]

Hi Simon

[Please keep your details updated by clicking here]
 

The Stone Man at Adam’s Calendar looked out at the sunrise at the Spring Equinox at least 160,000 years ago.

This ‘African Stonehenge’ which we have called ‘Adam’s Calendar’ has for the first time created a link to the countless other circular stone ruins in southern Africa and suggests that these ruins are much older than we thought. 

Our first calculations of the calendar were made based on the rise of Orion – flat on the horizon and in line with our 3 Orion monoliths on the outer perimeter of the calendar. But new measurements keep increasing the age. The first calculation was at least 25,000 years which was based on the precessional wobble of Earth which completes a full cycle every 26,000 years (approx).
The next calculation was presented by a master archaeoastronomer who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of ridicule by the academic fraternity. His calculation was based on the rise of Orion and suggested an age of at least 75,000 years. This is the reason why we used this age on the cover of our book – Adam’s Calendar. The most recent calculation in June 2009 suggests an age of at least 160,000 years, also based on the rise of Orion, flat on the horizon.

Not too far from the calendar lies the stone ruin complex that links Waterval Boven, Machadodorp, Carolina, Badplaas and Dullstroom. This covers an area larger then modern-day Johannesburg and has emerged as the largest and most mysterious ancient city on Earth. It is vital that this site be declared a World Heritage site ASAP. The discovery of carved dolerite statues of giant birds, some resembling Horus, and petroglyphs of winged disks, suggests that the prototype Sumerian and Egyptian civilisations had their origins in southern Africa thousands of years before they emerged in the north.

But the research has also shown that these stone settlements represent the most mysterious and misunderstood structures found to date. The strange and confusing walled-roads that link all the circular ruined structures are very perplexing and make no sense at all. Why would ancient people go to all the trouble of building roads lined along their sides with billions of stones, which had to be carried to site from many kilometres away?

In our new book called “Temples Of The African Gods” I propose a whole new theory about these structures. A theory that will probably freak out a large number of readers because we have been taught that we are the pinnacle of human existence and it is simply not possible that ancient people could have had more advanced knowledge and technology to us today. How silly and ignorant some of us can be!!!

The thousands of ancient gold mines discovered over the past 500 years, points to a vanished civilisation that lived and dug for gold in this part of the world for thousands of years. And if this is in fact the cradle of humankind, we may be looking at the activities of the oldest civilisation on Earth.

But the calendar remains the centrepiece among the ruins. Johan Heine discovered Adam’s Calendar in 2003, quite by accident. He was on route to find one of his pilots who crashed his plane on the edge of the cliff. Next to the crash site Johan noticed a very strange arrangement of large stones sticking out of the ground. While rescuing the injured pilot from about 20 metres down the side of the cliff, Johan walked over to the monoliths and immediately realised that they were aligned to the cardinal points of Earth – north, south, east and west. There were at least 3 monoliths aligned towards the sunrise, but on the west side of the aligned monoliths there was a mysterious hole in the ground – something was missing. Could that be the link to the whole calendar site?

Weeks and months of measuring and observing the movements of the sun Johan concluded that it was perfectly aligned with the rise and fall of the sun. He determined the solstices and the equinoxes. But the mysterious hole in the ground remained a big puzzle. One day, while contemplating the reason for the hole, the local horse trail expert, Christo, came riding by. He quickly explained to Johan that there was a strange shaped stone, which was removed from the spot some time ago. Apparently it stood somewhere near the entrance to the nature reserve.

After an extensive search, Johan found the anthropomorphic (humanoid shape) in tact and proudly placed with a plaque stuck to it. It was used by the Blue Swallow foundation to commemorate the opening of the Blue Swallow reserve in 1994. The irony is that it was removed from the most important ancient site found to date and mysteriously returned to the reserve – for slightly different reasons.

Since then we have discovered that Adam’s Calendar is probably the most sacred site on Earth and is well known amongst Sangomas and Shamans. The most beloved and inspirational among this elite group is Credo Mutwa. In a long interview with him in 2008, Credo told me that he was initiated at the site in 1937 and that it was indeed the most precious and sacred site. He asked me with tears in his eyes – “Mr Michael… please save this sacred site… protect it from the greedy developers and other ignorant people. It has to be saved for the future of humanity because this is the place where ‘Heaven mated with mother Earth’”.

At that time I did not understand the real meaning of Credo’s statement, and it took me another year of research for the penny to drop and to fully understand what he meant. This will be revealed on the next part of my article.
 
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:fbash   the ALIENS are in your living room!!...Don't be fooled....they are watching your every move....they control what you read, see, hear, ingest, even what you breathe!!

The shift of our planetary system into the age of Aquarius from the age of Pisces's, is a major one. An Era has ended and we are moving forward to another.The Universe is vast, the movement is slow yet realistic, time is not important, it is man made (the watch on your arm has been created by him) but take care as we transit closer to Aquarius time speeds up...notice how little you accomplish in the day...and you will accomplish less tomorrow!!

Pisces's, the two fish swimming in opposite directions....as we have witnessed....yin and yang, left and right, front and back, all the opposites have been prevalent in our society...we are now moving into the Age of Aquarius, which has a meaning of Holism, coming together, sharing knowledge, wealth, and bestowing Mother Earth the love she demands from us, She is the one who keeps us alive!

Man is not in charge here....the Universe was here first....Adam is not "in charge of all the animals"

Fortunately you and I are aware ::S  - we must be aware of the changes taking place around us, for if we arent moving with these changes we will be caught off guard, if there is a Polar shift.....maybe the cups will slide off the table!!  ^^..

Chase it on the internet - http://www.greggbraden.com

:SSS :fishn

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thika wrote: Glen,

Hawking is Gorilla sh!t!

Stop being influenced so much by him :)

Figure out with what God gave you AND him!



Some of his stuff is good.. tho the rest it non important to me thika ... (I'm only interested in the 9part big bang theory, how the earth began)

I'm not influenced by him, I'm curious as to what he's saying and why he's saying it.

Everything in life has a reason, a reason to exist a reason to make other thing's happen.. All this make's a difference to our future...

I'm an open minded person.. (I give everything a chance) But I'm not easily fooled.. I make my own decisions and no one make's them for me.

God has given me what I need in life.. (Yes I believe in the creator) as long as he stand's by me and watch's over me.. and people who may need him.. that's more than enough for me.

Quote: seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return. ... Un Quote:

 

 

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@ psy

Interesting stuff bru ... Thank's for the info.

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"Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Haartman (Professor of ADHD)

:)

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psy wrote: "Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Haartman (Professor of ADHD)

:)

May I ask what your belief is ????

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[size=Discovering the Oldest Man-made Structures on Earth.]
[size=A 10-part article by Michael Tellinger                                October 2009]

Hi Simon

[size=Part 3 of 10]

[size=So why is this Adam’s Calendar so special? The more research we do around it, the more we realise how important this structure is. The one thing we could not figure out was how the calendar was linked to the thousands of circular stone ruins in the greater part of southern Africa. ]

[size=The first estimates of the number of stone ruins was made in 1891 by Theodore Bent who had a real fascination with the stone ruins. He was the first person to document his excavations of Great Zimbabwe at the time and estimated that there were about 4,000 stone ruins in this part of the world.]

[size=In the early 70s Roger Summers calculated around 20,000 stone ruins. After my first year of living among the ruins and researching them extensively, I concluded that there are at least 100,000. This was confirmed by Prof. Revil Mason, retired head of Archaeology at the University Of The Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. He immediately retracted his statement when I suggested that this would put at least 1 million people living and working here some 200 - 400 years ago. By the middle of 2009 I realised that we are looking at probably around 200,000 stone ruins. The more mountains I climbed the larger this ancient settlement became.]

[size=You see, this is where all the earlier researchers always got tripped up, because they did not have the benefit of aerial and satellite photography. Thanks to Johan Heine’s work over an extended period we could make much more accurate calculations than ever before. ]

[size=But let’s get back to the this population thing, which is a huge problem for historians, because the population models and our history books suggest that the there were no more than 200,000 people living in the greater part of southern Africa between 200 – 400 years ago. It is quite obvious that it would require a much larger population to build so many stone structures. One of my favourite laughable theories, that are repeatedly presented by our tertiary institutions and leading archaeologists, is that many of these ancient stone settlements were built by the women and children. Do with this theory what you want.]

[size=But the link between Adam’s Calendar and the stone ruins still evaded us. For some reason we were under the impression that the Barberton valley and impact crater did not have any stone ruins. The valley is the entire flat area, surrounded by mountains, which is overlooked by Adam’s Calendar. Until my friend Brian Young called me one day in great excitement, saying that he found a circle. Fortunately for me Brian is a superb pilot who runs a flying school right in the heart of the Barberton valley. We went flying on several occasion and not only did we find many stone circles but also the ancient roads that connected them all at some stage in the distant past. We also found gold mines and many other strange anomalies.]

[size=Suddenly it became quite obvious. If this was indeed Enki’s calendar, at the dawn of humanity, the entire valley would have been the main settlement and gold-mining area in the entire southern African region. From the edge of the mountain top where the calendar is perched, you can see the entire valley. The master looking down on his slaves producing gold, in thousands of gold mines. The most impressive of all would have been a hidden mine just north of Adam’s Pyramids, perched right in the middle of the valley. A mine that was rediscovered by prospectors many thousands of years later, and appropriately named, Sheba Gold Mine.]

[size=Did I say pyramids? You heard right. We will deal with the growing body of evidence in the next article. ]
 
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[size=Michael Tellinger]

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Hi PSY, sorry to interrupt but tell me please what is Brian's surname, the pilot in Barberton?

Why I'm asking is because we used to live there for many years, maybe we know him..

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Brian Young ?

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No, the name does'nt ring a bell..

 

Glenn, I listened to all Stephen Hawkins's videos and its really very interesting but scary too..

What I was still wondering about is where did that very first ball of "whatever" come from in the first place, before the big bang.

And, where does gravity come from?

 

I suppose one cant get all the answers!:fbash

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Sarah de Jager wrote:
 Glenn, I listened to all Stephen Hawkins's videos and its really very interesting but scary too..

What I was still wondering about is where did that very first ball of "whatever" come from in the first place, before the big bang.

And, where does gravity come from?

 

I suppose one cant get all the answers!:fbash


Sarah,

What I was still wondering about is where did that very first ball of "whatever" come from in the first place, before the big bang.

One way to think about it is to say that before the Big Bang there was a single value of a single type but at the Big Bang this was split into many values of many types.

It's a bit abstract but all our notions and concepts of existance require a post Big Bang environment to be expressed.

 

And, where does gravity come from?

I suspect gravity was the last dimension to collide with (or be added to) our universe.  Before then, it was possibly a humongous lump of Bose-Einstein condensate.

The effects of gravity being introduced has produced stars, galaxies, etc. and everything else we observe, it almost certainly has to be the last ingredient.

I find in inconceivable that all rules governing the universe came together at once, though I don't discount the possibility, it seems improbable.  I speculate the last bang in the sequence of the "biggie" is gravity, otherwise, inflationary or an expanding universe would cause more filaments and/or some semblance of a center.

But then it's entirely possible that gravity existed first and something caused matter to spontaneously exist.  Given the rules of energy conservation, this seems unlikely.


 

Does this help you a little more ?




 







 

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Its just weird that on the moon, for example, there's just about no gravity.. What actually causes gravity?

Its hard for me to understand, what was before the Big bang, but, I'm getting there..:fbash

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Sarah de Jager wrote: Its just weird that on the moon, for example, there's just about no gravity.. What actually causes gravity?

Its hard for me to understand, what was before the Big bang, but, I'm getting there..:fbash

Its just weird that on the moon, for example, there's just about no gravity.. What actually causes gravity?

Firstly Sarah, I'm not a scientist, but here's a theory one would agree on .. take for example, A planet has an orbit because of the mass of the planet and because the object being pulled towards the planet has close distance between the planet. That's how there are moons around planets, because they got caught in the gravitational pull (orbit) of the planet.

If the distance between the planet and the object were to change, the gravitational pull would stay the same, then the planet would have a harder time pulling the object closer and into its gravitational pull because the distance was farther away.
If the mass of the object were to increase that the planet was pulling, the gravitational pull would stay the same, then the planet would also have a harder time pulling the object closer and into its gravitational pull because the amount of material the planet was pulling would have increased.


I do know no one has an answer to gravity, not even scientist's know either..

Its hard for me to understand, what was before the Big bang, but, I'm getting there..

I think this is where science ends and religion is called on to step up. - I could say that Science doesn't preclude religion - they perform fundamentally different purposes.  Science describes what happens in the universe but religion claims to give reasons for why things happen - However, My point was that religion does provide answers for those who have faith.  For those lacking such faith (like other's), I don't consider them "answers".

It seems when science hasn't an answer, one is made up until a better explanation comes along.  Early native Americans, not knowing how thunder is created, would have staked their life that there is, in fact, a thundergod.  We now know this not to be true.

Carl Sagan had the view that as time goes by, each mystery is revealed by science, as advanced measuring methods are developed.

We humans have a hard time accepting things unless we can clearly see them.

It is as hard to imagine the period before the big bang as it is to imagine a four dimensional universe, one in which there would be four lines radiating at 90 degrees from the corner of a room, rather than the current three.  Look up at the corner of your room and try it.
Because we can't imagine or see it, does not rule out the possibility.

I, like many others I'm sure, would love to know the answer to this question.  It would have a profound impact on religion and science, as it is one of the few grand mysteries that stares us in the face everyday, but still remains unanswered.

So we spend time trying to visualize what was before the big bang, yet our minds are not capable of visualizing pure nothingness (if, in fact, that's how it was?).  It's like trying to consider eternity.  If you lie in bed sometimes and try for a while, you might, like I do, get a fleeting idea of the concept.  It startles me, then leaves.

I think the same will always be true when considering "what happened before the big bang?"


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Good grief !! If all this discussion was about some fish I'd be catching it right now :-D

All human theories. There is no evidence that there was a big bang or that we evolved from apes (although there may be a point on this one ! ).

I've seen a lot of fancy video's, some very impressive, on the creation of the earth and the evolving of man to where we are today. Computer technology makes it possible to create VERY impressive and persuading visual presentations, and there are some good logic behind it. BUT, in time if you ponder these theories, you will discover some loopholes in them which voids them after a while. There are things science cannot explain, or create or clone and so on. Start with integrity, it's even hard to define. A consience is another. Lots of these around that is unique in humans.



On the ruins discovered in Africa or SA some 150 000 years ago I have a question. What went wrong ? Did they get fed up with earth and return home ? Any 'city' would involve calculations and engineering. Mining gold ? So there was a currency if it was that important. Where did the gold go ? City's need infrastructure, water, food, organization.

Well on this one, if you tell me they have from then on evolved back int to time then I can believe it, just see how SA is devolving on the moment :-D

As for the Q IF there is a God ? I don't know. If he was lonely and wanted companionship why isn't he here with us, why the wars, pain and all the crap going on ? Why create 'humans' that die and then 'live again'. If he is allmighty and can do anything, why not make the earth or paradise the place of joy and harmony for who he creates this for. Why wait all this time to cast the angels and the devil in the fire. Almighty means you can create any enemy if you love battles and fight them.

Also, why if there is a God would we 'evolve' from amoeba or some other basic creatures. What a letdown. And then there's the other Q. If we 'evolved', why haven't all the other primitives evolved also, only humans. Surely amuba should be able to talk and communicate by now or what is the secret ingredient for evolution ? We need a hell of a lot of that and very quickly if we were of a mind not to fall back in time a few hundred years in the near future.

So, all of this is mere speculation, theories, personal beliefs - and very little evidence. The one thing I can say about actual life on earth is it is complex, to put it simply. Just try to understand wiemen. Don't know what God had in mind there but good grief !!

I read somewhere the Q is, did God create Man, or did Man create God. I think every one wants to believe there is more that this simple existence and then you die and it's over, gone, there has to be something better.

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Fanie wrote: Good grief !! If all this discussion was about some fish I'd be catching it right now :-D

All human theories. There is no evidence that there was a big bang or that we evolved from apes (although there may be a point on this one ! ).

I've seen a lot of fancy video's, some very impressive, on the creation of the earth and the evolving of man to where we are today. Computer technology makes it possible to create VERY impressive and persuading visual presentations, and there are some good logic behind it. BUT, in time if you ponder these theories, you will discover some loopholes in them which voids them after a while. There are things science cannot explain, or create or clone and so on. Start with integrity, it's even hard to define. A consience is another. Lots of these around that is unique in humans.



On the ruins discovered in Africa or SA some 150 000 years ago I have a question. What went wrong ? Did they get fed up with earth and return home ? Any 'city' would involve calculations and engineering. Mining gold ? So there was a currency if it was that important. Where did the gold go ? City's need infrastructure, water, food, organization.

Well on this one, if you tell me they have from then on evolved back int to time then I can believe it, just see how SA is devolving on the moment :-D

As for the Q IF there is a God ? I don't know. If he was lonely and wanted companionship why isn't he here with us, why the wars, pain and all the crap going on ? Why create 'humans' that die and then 'live again'. If he is allmighty and can do anything, why not make the earth or paradise the place of joy and harmony for who he creates this for. Why wait all this time to cast the angels and the devil in the fire. Almighty means you can create any enemy if you love battles and fight them.

Also, why if there is a God would we 'evolve' from amoeba or some other basic creatures. What a letdown. And then there's the other Q. If we 'evolved', why haven't all the other primitives evolved also, only humans. Surely amuba should be able to talk and communicate by now or what is the secret ingredient for evolution ? We need a hell of a lot of that and very quickly if we were of a mind not to fall back in time a few hundred years in the near future.

So, all of this is mere speculation, theories, personal beliefs - and very little evidence. The one thing I can say about actual life on earth is it is complex, to put it simply. Just try to understand wiemen. Don't know what God had in mind there but good grief !!

I read somewhere the Q is, did God create Man, or did Man create God. I think every one wants to believe there is more that this simple existence and then you die and it's over, gone, there has to be something better.


Fanie,

You have some good question's there, I can't answer that one..  I don't know the south african history fully.. I'm sure Psy or Simen could answer them for you!

So, all of this is mere speculation, theories, personal beliefs - and very little evidence. The one thing I can say about actual life on earth is it is complex, to put it simply. Just try to understand wiemen. Don't know what God had in mind there but good grief !!


:lol:1:lol:1:lol:1:lol:1

I read somewhere the Q is, did God create Man, or did Man create God. I think every one wants to believe there is more that this simple existence and then you die and it's over, gone, there has to be something better.

Can you explain your belief's on there has to be something better? A theory possibly ?

 

Fanie
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I have no theory, but if the taxi runs you over tomorrow, then what.

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Fanie wrote: I have no theory, but if the taxi runs you over tomorrow, then what.
Then you gonne sit on some very hot rock OR you gonne be living everlasting in the most indescribable place ever. Your Choice NOW.

Fanie
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you gonne be living everlasting in the most indescribable place ever
Uh hu. And where would this be, and what about all the billions and billions of people who lived before, will they also be there ?

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Fanie wrote: you gonne be living everlasting in the most indescribable place ever
Uh hu. And where would this be, and what about all the billions and billions of people who lived before, will they also be there ?

There is one of the planets out there that we as humans know off in creation that: It will take you 3000000 human years at the speed of light to get from the one side to the opposite side. Man your and my brain are to small and so minute to sense the power of the all MIGHTY. So don't think!!! Just believe. You got nothing to loose. Just to gain. Today is here. Live it well. Yesterday is gone and what is done and been spoken is history. Tomorrow is the same. You don't have control of it as the day that is past. But what you do have a choice on is where you gonne end up when you don't see tomorrow. ^^..^^..

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The gravity on that planet is going to be so much it will squish you. Is there fish ;-) and wiemen :-O I don't sing and I have no musical talents to play the harp. And why aren't we there now ?

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Fanie wrote: The gravity on that planet is going to be so much it will squish you. Is there fish ;-) and wiemen :-O I don't sing and I have no musical talents to play the harp. And why aren't we there now ?


So, all of this is mere speculation, theories, personal beliefs - and very little evidence. The one thing I can say about actual life on earth is it is complex, to put it simply. Just try to understand wiemen. Don't know what God had in mind there but good grief !!


:lol:1:lol:1:lol:1:lol:1

I read somewhere the Q is, did God create Man, or did Man create God. I think every one wants to believe there is more that this simple existence and then you die and it's over, gone, there has to be something better.


Fanny you wrote this a thew posts back. I am so glad that you as human are humble to the all Mighty. By saying you and i quote. Don't know what God had in mind there but good grief !! ......You contradict your own belief and you know that God is there and the Creator of all you can imagine. The END.

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Answer my questions in the long post and I'll be happy.

All these theories are similar to the video's. How come the other belief's bibels are so similar to the Bibel, yet, they go to hell and we go to heaven. They say the same, we go to hell and they go to heaven. Now who's right :-)

Why weren't all the books in the Apocryphal books included in the Bibel as well ? Too far fetched ? Who decided the ones in the Bibel are the real valid books but not the ones in the Apocryphal books ?

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Fanny do not challenge THE. 1 Joh 2.2 en Jos 24.15.

Fanie
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Fanny eh, I wish ;-) No such luck, but maybe when I reincarnated I could be... oh never mind ;-D

It doesn't help you throw verses at me.

You cannot believe in something because you are scered of going to hell, because that is a false believe.

I doubt you will be able to answer any of these questions. As big and diverse as the universe is our brains and the way we think and are capable of thinking and argueing.

What gave us this ability is because we were made like God, or similar in some ways. We can are limited to using only a fraction of our brain capacity. People able to use more are often classified as mad, probably because we cannot handle the sheer of it with our limited abilities.

It is this same limitation that keeps us from creating life, man cannot be God.

If I see blue it does not mean it looks the same to you, we just associate that colour with the term blue. Same thing, the way you think God is may be very different from what and how I see Him. I think that is the idea. Two people can never be the same.

If you believe honestly then you will be ok, if you compromise then it is false. So you have to be true to yourself first.

There are defenately spirits around us, I cannot prove it to you and you cannot prove it to me but we are aware of them. I know I have a guardian angel that has saved my butt many a time, I cannot prove it but I know it is there.

So it would just naturally follow that there is a Higer Being that has some destiny in mind for us. I do not have the answers either. Maybe one day we will understand and know it all.

Until then, there is fish to catch, aliens to await visiting with good news of time travel and massive seas with unlimited fish in it. Oh and no samsa either :-D Had to get that in there eh... !

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We are not the only people in the universe.. let me rephrase that one.. We are spirit's traped in the human flesh body.. untill we get released when we die... Then we get released into another demension.

I believe that just somewhere out there.. there are other planet's far far far away.. undiscovered that have life form's living on them.. but possibly not in the human form.

I know there are spirit's out there, because when I was younger I was exposed to one.. It turn's out where we used to live was a hotel and that someone had murdered someone in the bedroom where I slept. Now you can laugh at this.. But hey! I seen with my own eye's.. And I know the truth.. And untill one has the same experence it is really hard to believe.

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I was exposed to one.. It turn's out where we used to live was a hotel and that someone had murdered someone in the bedroom where I slept.
Well, if you share the same taste for drink it should be ok.

The 'other dimension' my not be as far away as you think. We can maybe just not see it. Your friend in the hotel sure didn't seem a long way away.

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Fanie wrote: I was exposed to one.. It turn's out where we used to live was a hotel and that someone had murdered someone in the bedroom where I slept.
Well, if you share the same taste for drink it should be ok.

The 'other dimension' my not be as far away as you think. We can maybe just not see it. Your friend in the hotel sure didn't seem a long way away.


There was no above mention of drink! pay attention ..  :fbash

We can't see or hear other dimensions because we are not able to use all our senses.

Dog's can see all the other dimension's.

He wasn't my friend.. But I sure would of liked to got to know him. When people see these Spirits/Figures/ghosts.. They are seeing an illusion stuck back in the time where they where..and obviously dead..and relayed to where we are now.. It's like a recorder being played back in time to the furture so to speak.

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Dog's can see all the other dimension's

BS. In all the Dracula movies it was the cats. If dogs can see them they will be barking non stop and run up and down for seeming nothing. Why on earth would any animal be granted this extraordinary talent to see into other dimentions - if it is another dimention. We don't even know these dimention(s) exist, it is still only speculation.

Now this visitor you had, was he looking for something ? Did he say anything ?

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Fanie wrote: Dog's can see all the other dimension's

BS. In all the Dracula movies it was the cats. If dogs can see them they will be barking non stop and run up and down for seeming nothing. Why on earth would any animal be granted this extraordinary talent to see into other dimentions - if it is another dimention. We don't even know these dimention(s) exist, it is still only speculation.

Now this visitor you had, was he looking for something ? Did he say anything ?


Firstly I DONT TALK BS .. Sorry I forgot to add the cat's as well.. Human's can't fully use all our senses.. Tho medium's and there are some fake mediums out there reading peoples answer's and taking it from there..as well.. They have further senses and are using them to there ability.

Cat's and dog's are used to seeing these thing's because it doesn't bother them.. You obviously believe in spirit's.. That's all they are.. Time's are changing..You only have to look around you to see this..  be prepared as sailfish said.. Weather it be the bible or a bottle of liquor

He was just there when I opend the door..no he didn't say anything.. wore a black western type hat.. long black coat. black gloves.. seen it as clear as day.. I went to say to him how did you get in here.. I was shitting myself at the time.. I went to slam the door and looked around to see what I was doing,and then he had just disapeared! I don't really give a toss, but when you see it yourself.. it is really hard to beleve as I said.

From that very night I moved room's to the other side of the house.

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mmmm....Finally, the Russians are in Training - 1 1/2 years confined space training, preparing for their mission to.....the supposedly RED PLANET, which NASA labelled.....without life....dry and dusty....waterless......

mmmm....watch this space....:fishn

The complex of CYDONIA may well be a feature they will show all human life in the near future....or are they sworn to secrecy by the Reptiles from Atlantis that created them???

Lets investigate a little further....Wayne Herschel....does it ring any bells? :fbash

beta.mnet.co.za/carteblanche/Article.aspx?Id=2237

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 Hidden Records by Wayne Herschel

wayhersc@yahoo.com

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@ Psy

hi there bru, how was your weekend?

I think you will convert Sailfish yet! ::S

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Sailfish wrote: Fanny do not challenge THE. 1 Joh 2.2 en Jos 24.15.
Why? I just don't get comments like this.

Your argument is that it is true because it is written in a book? That people claim is true. Because the book says so.

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howsitt Glenn
damm its hot here 50 plus after 11:30....

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psy wrote: howsitt Glenn
damm its hot here 50 plus after 11:30....

Which part are in you simon?? 50 degree's after 11.30am.. Hmmm.. Is it not your winter time .. :fbash

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PSY, do you realise if those articles are true, then the whole lot of us are aliens !!

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Fanie wrote: PSY, do you realise if those articles are true, then the whole lot of us are aliens !!
You really are gonna piss Sailfish right off now fanie :lol:1

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Sorry Sailfish. It's hard to always please every body.

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Fanie wrote: Sorry Sailfish. It's hard to always please every body.
He can alway's get used to being an alien ???^^..

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No doubt there is other life out there! Life and space is so vast, it is actually sad to think that no humans living today will actually know unless something drastic is revealed. Even with the advanced technology of today, it is estimated that there are still hundreds of thousands of planets and stars which man is unable to see. And besides other planets, I feel there is so much to earth itself that will forever remain misunderstood and unexplained.

Head out to the desert, lie down and stare at the night sky. Anyone who is not humbled and filled with awe and amazement and with the feeling that there is so much up there that man does not even know about, just is not grasping what 'life' really is, and not grasping how absolutely tiny we and our little earth are compared to life as we know it!!!

Why just one planet with life.... in all of eternity????? just doesn't make sense!!!

Life is eternal, and comes in many many many forms. How exciting!!!

Nice one Glenn, see you on da other side mate. He! he!

 

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Glenn wrote: Fanie wrote: PSY, do you realise if those articles are true, then the whole lot of us are aliens !!
You really are gonna piss Sailfish right off now fanie :lol:1

::S::S::SLMAO. Takes more than a chicken breasted Irishman on a tubeskuit to get Oupa Sailfish mad.::S::S::S

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Fanie wrote: PSY, do you realise if those articles are true, then the whole lot of us are aliens !!
::S

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Sailfish wrote: Glenn wrote: Fanie wrote: PSY, do you realise if those articles are true, then the whole lot of us are aliens !!
You really are gonna piss Sailfish right off now fanie :lol:1

::S::S::SLMAO. Takes more than a chicken breasted Irishman on a tubeskuit to get Oupa Sailfish mad.::S::S::S


 

Now Now Saily behave! :fbash

I'm not the one with the problem with you ....  (I for one enjoy your humour babe):lol:1

It's the other guy's when you throw bible verse's at them out of now where .. ::S

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hookandsinker wrote:
Nice one Glenn, see you on da other side mate. He! he!

 


I've been Contemplating that one myself when on this tread..

 I wonder if one has a choice to what one want's to be after they leave the human body ...

Someone mentioned reincarnation to an animal .. Don't think I could be an animal!

Firstly, I see how animal's are treated.. How they have to look for food when there is none about.. Taken by predator's.. hunted.. bad weather.. Treated badly.

What you wish to be an animal ??  ::jdchk

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animal.....we are ANIMALS!!

:fbash

Look at the way we (Human) behave....we arent as studious as the simple Bee, nor the Lowly Ant...

 

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howsit Glenn

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I have laid on my back in the Mesum Crater in a cave in South West Africa

I saw Nicky Lauder's ear in the starlit sky...it was stiched on and made from vagina lips!

Glenn..get some sleep  :)

Worry rather about your very short time here!

Even the Aliens know zulch!

Thika

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psy wrote: howsit Glenn

Not bad simon... U ??

 

You may be an animal, but there are other's like myself and saily that are rather refined to life!  And we simply cannot behave like animal's .. :lol:1 

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thika wrote: I have laid on my back in the Mesum Crater in a cave in South West Africa

I saw Nicky Lauder's ear in the starlit sky...it was stiched on and made from vagina lips!

Glenn..get some sleep  :)

Worry rather about your very short time here!

Even the Aliens know zulch!

Thika


 

Relaxxxx dude.. It's only a bit of banter and some discussion...

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Glenn wrote: Sailfish wrote: Glenn wrote: Fanie wrote: PSY, do you realise if those articles are true, then the whole lot of us are aliens !!
You really are gonna piss Sailfish right off now fanie :lol:1

::S::S::SLMAO. Takes more than a chicken breasted Irishman on a tubeskuit to get Oupa Sailfish mad.::S::S::S


 

Now Now Saily behave! :fbash

I'm not the one with the problem with you ....  (I for one enjoy your humour babe):lol:1

It's the other guy's when you throw bible verse's at them out of now where .. ::S


Glenn glad you find it also quite amusing. I was simply answering Fannie by quote out of the spoken Word. Not a book to me. There are so many things written in there a long time ago and all that has been predicted is coming foth now. All pritty acurate predictions or let me rater state written that it shall happen. Even the cloning of the frogs was said to happen.

Fanie asked and i quote:Answer my questions in the long post and I'll be happy.

All these theories are similar to the video's. How come the other belief's bibels are so similar to the Bible, yet, they go to hell and we go to heaven. They say the same, we go to hell and they go to heaven. Now who's right :-)

Why weren't all the books in the Apocryphal books included in the Bible as well ? Too far fetched ? Who decided the ones in the Bible are the real valid books but not the ones in the Apocryphal books ?

So i gave him the answer. 1 Joh 2: 2.

Does not look like he has a Bible so her goes.

Hy is die versoeningsoffer vir ons sondes. Nie net vir ons sondes nie maar vir die van die hele mensdom.

Who ever told Fanie that only one or the other will go to Heaven i do not know. All who worship the living God will see the light. No matter threw witch  method you pray.

The second Question is so simple to answer. Not all the scrips that was written were found at the same time and at one location. So the ones that was readable and could be deceived where used. We still find manuscripts in to days time on different locations.

How about some humor. SA IN HEAVEN.

Attachment: SA IN Heaven.jpg (Downloaded 136 times)

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Sailfish wrote:
Glenn glad you find it also quite amusing. I was simply answering Fannie by quote out of the spoken Word. Not a book to me. There are so many things written in there a long time ago and all that has been predicted is coming foth now. All pritty acurate predictions or let me rater state written that it shall happen. Even the cloning of the frogs was said to happen.


 

Amusing eh? Noooo .. I have respect for the bible saily.. There are def thing's that are coming true there.. The twin tower's.. Climate change.. Everyone is at war..

This is VERY AMUSING to me, because it say's that it is real & is happening today...

But I do find it amusing that the other guy's wont believe in the bible and laugh at it?

I get this question all the time .. If god exist's why can he not come down and stop all the thing's that are happening.. all the war's.. the twin tower's where so many inocent people lost there live's etc.. (I seen the video's of ton's of people jumping and falling to there death's)

The blood shed.. murder's.. violence..

My answer is and alway's will be.. Because he took his hand away from creation.

I don't think any of us can really say what come's next in life.. Yes you can have faifth and you can have courage.. but is it enough to be happy in your own soul.

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If there are aliens out there what's the bag limit, best bait and appropriate tackle to use? Those prawns from district nine look like a promising live bait.

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Cam Mundy wrote: If there are aliens out there what's the bag limit, best bait and appropriate tackle to use? Those prawns from district nine look like a promising live bait.
Becarefull Cam, you have already been cautioned ... :hyst:

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If I were to be an animal, crocodile for sure. Master of it's environment, cunning, fast, INTELLIGENT, ultimate survivor and can adapt to almost any conditions.u.

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hookandsinker wrote: If I were to be an animal, crocodile for sure. Master of it's environment, cunning, fast, INTELLIGENT, ultimate survivor and can adapt to almost any conditions.u.

That's a good point there.. EVEN a hippo... not EVEN the croc's mess with them! Not so sure I wanna be that fat tho... Jezz they can move. ::S

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Archeologists Claim to Have Found Noah's Ark
The Observer (London) by Martin Wroe    
 




HEADLINE  
LONDON -- Noah's Ark has been found on the Turkish-Iranian border, 32 kilometers from Mount Ararat, according to the leader of a team of scientists that has been investigating the site for six years.  
The Turkish government is so convinced by the findings that, after years of intransigence, it has designated the site one of special archaeological interest and agreed to its excavation next summer.  
The remote site contains a buried, ship-like object, resting an altitude of 2,300 meters. At 170 meters long and 45 meters wide, it conforms almost exactly to the 300 cubit by 50 cubit boat that God told Noah to build, according to Genesis 6 in the Bible.  
On surrounding terrain, the American and Middle Eastern scientists have identified huge stones with holes carved at one end, which they believe are "drogue-stones," dragged behind ships in the ancient world to stabilize them. Radar soundings indicate unusual levels of iron-oxide distribution.  
Salih Bayraktutan, head of geology at Turkey's Ataturk University, estimates the age of the 'vessel' at more than 100,000 years (According to the Bible, Adam the first of human beings was created some 6000 years ago, as you can see this is a clear contradiction to the Bible. The Quran however doesn't specify the when Adam was born, it does say the human beings were created a long time ago.) "It is a man-made structure and for sure it is Noah's Ark." The site is directly below the mountain of Al Judi, named in the Koran (Quran) as the Ark's resting place.  
David Fasold, an American shipwreck specialist with no religious affiliation, has led the investigation. He says subsurface radar surveys of the site have produced "very good pictures." "The radar imagery at about 25 meters down from the stern is so clear that you can count the floorboards between the walls."  
He believes the team has found the fossilized remains of the upper deck and that the original reed substructure has disappeared. But the  findings have infuriated the scores of Christian Ark-hunters who travel to Turkey, convinced the Ark will only be found on Mount Ararat. 




 




Fasold, who calls himself an "Arkologist," also argues that it was not a great flood that pushed the Ark into the mountains. He says it was "an astronomical event causing a tectonic upheaval, a tidal bore causing gravitational pull in the ocean waters that forced the boat into the mountains."  
Some of Fasold's team of geophysicists and geologists are reserving final judgment until the excavation and carbon-dating. But in a British TV series on the environment next month, team member Vendyl Jones, a Middle East archaeologist and inspiration for film character Indiana Jones, says it is "between maybe and probably" that they have found Noah's Ark.  
   
The Quranic verse detailing about the resting place of the Noah's Ark is found in Chapter Hud, verse 44 (Quran 11:44). The verse says:  

When the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water and O sky! withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!" 
The 49th verse of the same Chapter says:  
Such are some of the stories of the Unseen which We have revealed unto you: before this neither you nor your people knew them. So persevere patiently: for the end is for those who are righteous."

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Hmmmmm, looks like you guys have smoked the entire Transkei harvest by now!

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kraken wrote: Hmmmmm, looks like you guys have smoked the entire Transkei harvest by now!

Love the humour.. :lol:1

 

Now behave :fbash

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[size=Dear Simon]
 
 [Please keep your details updated by clicking here]
 
[size=I know that I said my articles will be about a page long, but this is such an important and juicy bit of new evidence that it requires a little deeper exploration. Please enjoy it and read the full Gospel of Judas via the link at the bottom. Next article will return to the shorter, punchier version.]


[size=Best regards]

[size=Michael.]
 
[size=The Gospel or the Truth]
 

The English language has a wonderful way of using unrelated words to represent a specific meaning, when such words are used in our daily conversations. Gospel, is one such word that has commonly replaced most other superlatives when trying to express the highest level of truth, confidence or credibility.
 
The past few weeks has seen a new attack on the word "gospel" as the world turned with great interest towards the newly unveiled "Gospel of Judas". National Geographic presented the translations to a seemingly stunned world not quite sure how to deal with this "new truth" from the last days of Jesus Christ. This 1700 year old and rather tatty document contains a debate between Jesus and Judas and paints a somewhat different picture about events surrounding the last supper. "Judas said to him, "I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you." This will certainly not please the hardcore biblical scholars and sounds rather similar to the 'clan' of immortal gods that set out to create humankind as described in the Sumerian tablets.

 
Those that have read "Slave Species of god" will be familiar with the life and teachings of Jesus before he arrived back in Canaan to begin the last three years of his teaching. In the East he was known as St. Issa and in the Americas he was referred to as the "Great White Robed Master" or the "Pale One" or the "Pale Great Master" and other names like "The Prophet".

But Jesus was constantly surrounded by angels, ever-ready to strike in his defense. And he often refers to his angels that can either come to his rescue or perform some other miraculous feat. And the new Gospel is no exception: "And a luminous cloud appeared there. He said, 'Let an angel come into being as my attendant.'… "A great angel, the enlightened divine Self-Generated, emerged from the cloud. Because of him, four other angels came into being from another cloud… (Gospel of Judas. A link to the full Gospel is at the bottom of this email)
The question begs… who were these so-called angels? Why did they constantly appear when there was trouble brewing or when it was about to hit the fan? As in Sodom!

As can be seen, this idea is clearly continued in this new "Gospel of Judas" as Jesus refers to angels appearing out of clouds in the sky. He also refers to a greater universal being that controls all these angels and a being that has not been seen among men and angels. Not dissimilar to what we read in the Sumerian tablets. A really shocking revelation is when Jesus refers to another realm of 'more advanced beings'.
 
"They said to him, "Master, where did you go and what did you do when you left us?" Jesus said to them, "I went to another great and holy generation." His disciples said to him, "Lord, what is the great generation that is superior to us and holier than us, that is not now in these realms?" When Jesus heard this, he laughed…no host of angels of the stars will rule over that generation, and no person of mortal birth can associate with it, because that generation does not come from… The generation of people among you is from the generation of humanity…" When his disciples heard this, they each were troubled in spirit."

Then we read about 12 luminaries who ruled, in the same way that all ancient mythologies have exposed us to their pantheon on 12 gods. "Adamas was in the first luminous cloud that no angel has ever seen among all those called 'God.'" Is Jesus referring to a larger number of "gods" that ruled the world?

The problem is that this Gospel, like many others before it has been deemed to be less valuable than the material it was written on. This new Gospel contradicts the New Testament in many ways and has already caused large numbers of religious leaders around the world to discredit it. But we should not be surprised at this behaviour as many so called Apocryphal books have received the same treatment in the early days of Christianity when the New Testament was being compiled by men with personal agendas.

 
The Apocrypha (hidden things/writings) is a collection of books written mostly by authors of other books of the Bible, but the Apocrypha were not included in any of the Bibles. They deal with Christian and Biblical themes, some from the times of the Old Testament, others from the times of the New Testament. There are many Apocryphal books that were not deemed fit by the 'editors' of the New Testament to be included, mainly because the message they carry is often in direct contradiction to the agenda of the editors, who were Roman Emperors and their appointed religious sidekicks.

This is a list of some Apocrypha, there are over 40 linked to the New Testament:

14 Gospels, by Thomas, James, Peter, Bartholomew; 15 Acts, by Andrew, Peter, Matthew, John, Thomas, Paul... 6 Revelations, by Paul, Thomas, John, Virgin Mary, Stephen, Peter... Acts of John, Acts of Paul, Acts of Paul and Thecla, Acts of Peter, Apocalypse of James (I), Apocalypse of James (II), Apocalypse of Peter, Apocalypse of Philip, Apocalypse of Stephan, Apocalypse of Thomas, Apocryphon of John, Epistle of Pontius Pilate, Gospel of Nicodemus, Gospel of Perfection, Gospel of Philip, Gospel of Peter, Revelation of Peter, Protevangelium of James, Gospel of the Birth of Mary, Gospel of the Hebrews, Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, History of Joseph, Letter of Paul to the Alexandrians, Testament of the Lord, Wisdom of Jesus.

The real work surrounding these books began with Flavius Valerius Constantinus – 272 - 337 AD, commonly known as Constantine the Great, he became known as the first 'Christian Emperor' of the Roman empire and began the Empire's unofficial sponsoring of Christianity, which was a major factor in the survival and spread of the religion. He founded the city of Constantinople (Istanbul) as the new capital of the Eastern Empire which became the home of Christianity, filled with large numbers of churches and temples. He also proclaimed that Sunday would be the day of worship.

The First Council of Nicaea, which was called by Constantine in 325 AD, was the first ecumenical (worldwide) conference of bishops of the Christian Church. The participating bishops were given free travel and lodging. The council, which was also called a synod, dealt with the problems created by the Aryan controversy, concerning the nature and status of Jesus. The Aryans had their own views of who Jesus really was. We must remember that Jesus spent most of his growing life, since the age of 12 or 13 in the East, under the influence of several eastern religious philosophies and Aryanism was just one of them. Finally the Synod decided against the Aryans and voted in favour of Trinitarianism, which suddenly made Jesus part of the Father and the Holy Spirit. This was a whole new twist to the New Testament and the Holy Trinity was born. Another outcome of the council was an agreement by the bishops of all the Churches, to celebrate Easter on the same day. Is that not a little stra nge?

These were the wild and wonderful early days of Christianity, when most of its foundations were laid. The editing of the Bible's New Testament began to take shape, but it would take another 800 years before the final version was decided upon. This long process is filled with controversy because many books were omitted while others were amended before they were included. It was during this period that one of the first recorded references to the Catholic Church emerged. This Catholic denomination of Christianity continued to expand into what it has become today. The largest and most powerful wing of the Christian Church.

Food for thought it certainly is. Who were all those angels milling around? Who were the other gods? Where was the other realm with immortal beings? And who was Jesus, that he deserved such constant angelic protection? Once again we find that scientific discoveries seem to fly in the face of mainstream religion and rather support the alternative 'truth' about our history.

Please click here to share my articles with your friends who you know will appreciate them.

Michael Tellinger
20 April 2006.

Read the full Gospel of Judas: http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/GospelofJudas.pdf

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psy wrote:
These were the wild and wonderful early days of Christianity, when most of its foundations were laid. The editing of the Bible's New Testament began to take shape, but it would take another 800 years before the final version was decided upon. This long process is filled with controversy because many books were omitted while others were amended before they were included.



I had a feeling they where adding thing's to the bible.. It has been changed that many time's and thing's taken away from it over the thousand's of year's etc..

Who can we trust.. The first church that was made was started by a theif, murder & con man.. It does make one think..

I'm not saying that the bible isn't true.. But I don't need to read a bible to believe in what I do.. Look around you .. Beautiful eh ?? :)

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Earth is not older than 6000 years! Prove me wrong!!

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Sailfish wrote: Earth is not older than 6000 years! Prove me wrong!!

:fbash:fbash:fbash:fbash:fbash:fbash

 

The age of the Earth is around 4.54 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%).[1][2][3] This age has been determined by radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples. The Sun, in comparison, is about 4.57 billion years old, about 30 million years older.

Following the scientific revolution and the development of radiometric age dating, measurements of lead in uranium-rich minerals showed that some were in excess of a billion years old.[4] The oldest such minerals analyzed to date – small crystals of zircon from the Jack Hills of Western Australia – are at least 4.404 billion years old.[5][6][7] Comparing the mass and luminosity of the Sun to the multitudes of other stars, it appears that the solar system cannot be much older than those rocks. Ca-Al-rich inclusions (inclusions rich in calcium and aluminium) – the oldest known solid constituents within meteorites that are formed within the solar system – are 4.567 billion years old,[8][9] giving an age for the solar system and an upper limit for the age of Earth. It is hypothesised that the accretion of Earth began soon after the formation of the Ca-Al-rich inclusions and the meteorites. Because the exact accretion time of Earth is not yet known, and the predictions from different accretion models range from a few millions up to about 100 million years.

Last edited on Fri Jun 11th, 2010 03:54 pm by Glenn

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Glenn wrote: Sailfish wrote: Earth is not older than 6000 years! Prove me wrong!!

:fbash:fbash:fbash:fbash:fbash:fbash

 

The age of the Earth is around 4.54 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%).[1][2][3] This age has been determined by radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples. The Sun, in comparison, is about 4.57 billion years old, about 30 million years older.

Following the scientific revolution and the development of radiometric age dating, measurements of lead in uranium-rich minerals showed that some were in excess of a billion years old.[4] The oldest such minerals analyzed to date – small crystals of zircon from the Jack Hills of Western Australia – are at least 4.404 billion years old.[5][6][7] Comparing the mass and luminosity of the Sun to the multitudes of other stars, it appears that the solar system cannot be much older than those rocks. Ca-Al-rich inclusions (inclusions rich in calcium and aluminium) – the oldest known solid constituents within meteorites that are formed within the solar system – are 4.567 billion years old,[8][9] giving an age for the solar system and an upper limit for the age of Earth. It is hypothesised that the accretion of Earth began soon after the formation of the Ca-Al-rich inclusions and the meteorites. Because the exact accretion time of Earth is not yet known, and the predictions from different accretion models range from a few millions up to about 100 million years.


Hmmmm!!! So how long ago did the dinosaurs live here on earth again????

Is all this from the same scientists that claim the so called big bang that started all. Am i rite to say that the claim of the scientists is that a mass witch spun at a large velocity exploded and cause the solar system to evolve from that?????So please explain if a mass rotating in one direction and exploding to form planets with moons and solar systems? Now all of a sudden some of those moons and planets start turning and spinning in opposite directions to the beginning state of there projectile and rotating direction in the big bang.

How come the oldest desert on earth is just 4500 years old?

If you claim dinosaurs to be million of years old. Please explain the speed the earth was turning at that time, when we loose 1looner second every 5 years now. Also the distance the moon was away from earth then. As we know now that the moon distance is currently increasing from earth in it's cycle round earth.

While we at it!!!The same scientists claim that the earth had a layer of water deep under the earth crust and it is now not there any more. Why?? Let me enlighten you. If you look at the different vault's(San Andreas), like the big one between the African continent and the American continent. Isn't that where the water escaped and caused the wold flood 4000 years back. The flood is confirmed by your scientists at that time (4000 years) ago here on earth.

Also Scientists have found signs of water in space. You want to know where they come from??

Now to give you a bit from the real world and prov-en theory. Not your so called theories that has no evidence.

In the beginning: God made the heavens and the earth and all the planets and  solar systems. In one day!!!!! You will see i said Heaven(s). 2nd day:Also the heavens was created with the waters been separated, the waters on earth and the water that surrounded the outer of the earths heaven. 3rd day: Plants (In one day!!!) 4th day: God made earth to turn so there could be day and night. In one day or do you think the plants could survive without sunlight for longer????Sunlight give the plants the ability to make oxygen for us mortals to live!!!This is where we deter min a 24 hour today as one day and one night. 5th day: birds and all the animals in the see and on land. This include the dinosaur's!!If you look at all closely you will realise that scientists has deter mend that a dinosaur of great size had the same nostril opening size of a normal antelope of today. So how could that be that that enormous beast get enough oxygen to feed his big body. Simple answer to that. The outer layer of earth heaven was protected by the waters that was then surrounding the earth outer layer of atmosphere. This caused that the oxygen on earth was dubble the pressure of today as we know it. More oxygen faster and bigger groath. Scientists found human remains of 4500 years old that had 12ft in height. Same scientists that you claim to be the guru's. We all know that happened on the 6st day. Us, the human Adam and Eva. My great, great great........ grandfather was certainly no rock.

On the 7th day God rested.

That my friends was the beginning. 6000years back. For 2000years they lived and multiply the earth. Man and dinosaurs in great harmony. All under the world with twice the amount of oxygen and the hole world covers by green plants.

4000years back the great fluid and Noah's arc. Take into consideration that the arc was billed by people 12ft long. How long was a 12ft mans forearm then. How strong was a 12ft man then. Also they lived up to 1000years. Don't tel me now but you have to divide by 12 on their year to get their age. No my friend there years was the same as today. Prove you say. Noah's son Set was 65years old when his son was born. Divide that by 12??? Come on now!!!! He would have been 5,5years old to be the father of his 1st son.Also do you really think Noah did'nt know that all the animals he took on board the arc was to be the young ones.

So after the big flood God stretched the heavens and this is where the signs of water in space comes from. Men now did'nt grow that old due to the atmosphere been less dense. Now all radiation and the harmful rays of the sun could penetrate the earth core and thus our skin also showing faster signs of ageing. That my friends is how earth has started and time was created. God has no time and He was there before and will always be everywhere.

Last edited on Fri Jun 11th, 2010 08:50 pm by Sailfish

tauruck
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They do exist.

I've had this okie for years.

Glenn, Next time you're im S.A. I'll show you.

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Psy
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F.ME CHINA!!!

:)

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Sailfish wrote: Earth is not older than 6000 years! Prove me wrong!!
Sailfish wrote: Earth is not older than 6000 years! Prove me wrong!!

:fbash        the sphinx is bloody older than 6000 years mate!!   :fbash

 

leave  the bible out of this...its not complete....it has been scraped together from different writings.

Sumerian clay tablets are older than the bible.......................the CHOSEN phrases (extracted from the clay tablets) have been bound into the book you!! ............................ (NOT ME) believe in!

:fishn

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You may find this interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuzuQIr_fPU&feature=related

Fanie
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Hi Sailfish,

Sorry I missed your post, I wasn't ignoring you. Buzy with too many things and not fitting in a day.

Don't misunderstood because I put them questions out there. They were just questions.

I would like to make a comment about the Bibel - The principles and guidelines in it is sound and is the formula or perscription for any person or community to live in a sensible and peacefull way, it spans nationally and internationally. Any time you deviate, there are problems, if you keep within the limits, it works.

Glenn
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Sailfish wrote: That my friends was the beginning. 6000years back. For 2000years they lived and multiply the earth. Man and dinosaurs in great harmony. All under the world with twice the amount of oxygen and the hole world covers by green plants.
Saily, I have to agree with you on this one.. I Watched a christian video around 4 year's ago.. That plant's from then that had been frozen where found.. also Dragon fly's and some other insect's.. Because of the amount of oxygen in the air covered by the shield of water that was protecting the earth in that era.. made everything very large.. plant's 12 ft tall.. Dragon fly's with a 4 foot wing span.. bloddy hell imagine trying to kill that beast of a fly :uziThis is why the dinosaurs where so big.. 12 ft human's (6 have been found in the same area) and could run forever and not be out of breath.. This is very true as they have found all this frozen buried some where.
So after the big flood God stretched the heavens and this is where the signs of water in space comes from. Men now did'nt grow that old due to the atmosphere been less dense. Now all radiation and the harmful rays of the sun could penetrate the earth core and thus our skin also showing faster signs of ageing. That my friends is how earth has started and time was created. God has no time and He was there before and will always be everywhere.
The ageing process I agree with you on here.. seem's to me that there are alot of theory's in your post.. but like me that's all they are..But I think you are VERY WRONG that the earth is ONLY 6000 year's old .. Psy and myself have proven so.

Glenn
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tauruck wrote: They do exist.

I've had this okie for years.

Glenn, Next time you're im S.A. I'll show you.


It's a fake copy obviously ... (With all due respect mikey)

Where did you get it from ??

Psy
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Fanie wrote: You may find this interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuzuQIr_fPU&feature=related


exactly.....!!!  ::S

nou raak wys julle!! :fbash

:fishn

Sailfish
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psy wrote: Sailfish wrote: Earth is not older than 6000 years! Prove me wrong!!
Sailfish wrote: Earth is not older than 6000 years! Prove me wrong!!

:fbash        the sphinx is bloody older than 6000 years mate!!   :fbash

 

leave  the bible out of this...its not complete....it has been scraped together from different writings.

Sumerian clay tablets are older than the bible.......................the CHOSEN phrases (extracted from the clay tablets) have been bound into the book you!! ............................ (NOT ME) believe in!

:fishn


So how old do you say the Sphinx is???? And who build it? If man on earth is found to be no more than 6000 years in existence. That been a fact and confirmed by scientists.

How can you tell me to leave the Bible and my believe out of it if you yourself BELIEVE man comes from a rock???????

Last edited on Sat Jun 12th, 2010 06:35 pm by Sailfish

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I asked 3 simple questions and you all speak round them. So here we go again. Just answer this my guru friends.

1. If a sphere of gasses and material turns in one direction at a great velocity and it explodes and the planets and moons start to form. How is it possible that some of that moons, planets solar systems can change there original direction of turning and now some turn in opposite directions to the original direction they started of???

2. If earth looses 1looner second every +/- 5years and decreasing in speed. The current speed at the equator is 1078km/h. You gurus say the dinosaurs are +/- 5million  years old. What was the speed of the earth at the equator then if you work that 1looner second back at that time period?????

3.Scientist say and have found that the moon is moving further away from earth every second in its elliptical orbit round earth. How far was the moon from earth 5million years ago?????

Fanie
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1. If a sphere of gasses and material turns in one direction at a great velocity and it explodes and the planets and moons start to form. How is it possible that some of that moons, planets solar systems can change there original direction of turning and now some turn in opposite directions to the original direction they started of???

May be like a big dam full of water. The ingrediants sometimes change direction and swirl some, but in space because it is so vast it may just happen slower (thank goodness !)

2. If earth looses 1looner second every +/- 5years and decreasing in speed. The current speed at the equator is 1078km/h. You gurus say the dinosaurs are +/- 5million years old. What was the speed of the earth at the equator then if you work that 1looner second back at that time period?????

VERY fast. Dyno's were big jobbies so their weight kept them from flying off the earth. Small dyno's avoided the equator :hyst:

As the earth moves with the sun through the other planets and big entities may have a braking or accelleration effect on us, similar as the moon has on our tides. It depends on where we are wrt many of the other planets.

3.Scientist say and have found that the moon is moving further away from earth every second in its elliptical orbit round earth. How far was the moon from earth 5million years ago?????

Same answer as above. I saw somewhere they even calculated the braking power the gravity between the earth and the moon have on one another.

It seems everything works in cycles, some are short and repeat often, then others take years, decades and whatever other time scales there is, but it again depends on where we are in the greater out there. Keep in mind earth is about one germ size compared to the smallest little specs out there, then compare to the really major monstrosities. If you look at it in context it is actually scary to think earth survived this long.

I once saw a video to showed the path earth has traveled so far, and what it's chances of survival was, and if it is going to survive, again what are the odds.

Well, lets just say that earth had a HELL OF A LOT of luck in the past. Like winning the lotto a bunch of times in a row.

Of course how it's going to fare in the future all depends on the outcome of the socca !!!

Fanie
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Not everything is as we think it should be. The sun is a ball of burning gass - or so we think. In our terms something that burns out should get smaller and smaller, right, aparently not. The more the sun burns out the more it expands, because the gravity becomes less !

Now what I'm worried about - how does the sun burn without oxygen. We learned that you need air to burn anything.

Sailfish
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Fanie wrote: 1. If a sphere of gasses and material turns in one direction at a great velocity and it explodes and the planets and moons start to form. How is it possible that some of that moons, planets solar systems can change there original direction of turning and now some turn in opposite directions to the original direction they started of???

May be like a big dam full of water. The ingrediants sometimes change direction and swirl some, but in space because it is so vast it may just happen slower (thank goodness !)

2. If earth looses 1looner second every +/- 5years and decreasing in speed. The current speed at the equator is 1078km/h. You gurus say the dinosaurs are +/- 5million years old. What was the speed of the earth at the equator then if you work that 1looner second back at that time period?????

VERY fast. Dyno's were big jobbies so their weight kept them from flying off the earth. Small dyno's avoided the equator :hyst:

As the earth moves with the sun through the other planets and big entities may have a braking or accelleration effect on us, similar as the moon has on our tides. It depends on where we are wrt many of the other planets.

3.Scientist say and have found that the moon is moving further away from earth every second in its elliptical orbit round earth. How far was the moon from earth 5million years ago?????

Same answer as above. I saw somewhere they even calculated the braking power the gravity between the earth and the moon have on one another.

It seems everything works in cycles, some are short and repeat often, then others take years, decades and whatever other time scales there is, but it again depends on where we are in the greater out there. Keep in mind earth is about one germ size compared to the smallest little specs out there, then compare to the really major monstrosities. If you look at it in context it is actually scary to think earth survived this long.

I once saw a video to showed the path earth has traveled so far, and what it's chances of survival was, and if it is going to survive, again what are the odds.

Well, lets just say that earth had a HELL OF A LOT of luck in the past. Like winning the lotto a bunch of times in a row.

Of course how it's going to fare in the future all depends on the outcome of the socca !!!


Hmmmm!!! May be like a big!!! May have a braking or !!!!Well, lets just say!!!

Thanks!!! That explain it all perfectly?????? You gurus don't have an explanation. Keep trying guys. What is your next theory? Aliens made it all and the Sphinx was build by them to? tauruck's alien stayed behind :alien

Last edited on Sat Jun 12th, 2010 08:35 pm by Sailfish

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Next Theory:

In the 2010 prediction where the time scale stops and it is assumed it is going to be the end of the world, I'm sure you all know of the expected 2010 apocalypse - I doubt it will be the end of the world. (Ok the reason why I'm saying so is because we haven't learned to stand together yet and once we stand together we would be able to stand against ANYTHING !)

IF it is like they said earth is going to move through a certain dense area of other goodies out there in 2012, it may well be that certain things will begin to speed up.

Then it may well happen that fish begin to bite faster as well :eek: Won't that be brilliant. Now I can't wait !

Bugger the soccer, bring 2010 ON !!!

You can see all about it here -
http://survive2012.com/index.php/2012possibilities.html

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Fanie wrote: Next Theory:

In the 2010 prediction where the time scale stops and it is assumed it is going to be the end of the world, I'm sure you all know of the expected 2010 apocalypse - I doubt it will be the end of the world. (Ok the reason why I'm saying so is because we haven't learned to stand together yet and once we stand together we would be able to stand against ANYTHING !)

IF it is like they said earth is going to move through a certain dense area of other goodies out there in 2012, it may well be that certain things will begin to speed up.

Then it may well happen that fish begin to bite faster as well :eek: Won't that be brilliant. Now I can't wait !

Bugger the soccer, bring 2010 ON !!!

You can see all about it here -
http://survive2012.com/index.php/2012possibilities.html

::S::S::S Lekker Fanie.  Now if fish bite faster!!! Will i be able to throw tether???::S::S::S

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Will i be able to throw tether???

I have a much easier solution than helping you with your casting range. If we help to get your boat in the water, you only have to throw over the gunnel :hyst:

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@ sailfish

You wont accept science with some proven fact's and theory's.. but you accept a book the bible (Respect) that has been written many time's over and wrong thing's added to it here and there?? I don't get it..

can you not have faifth in science that's true logic?

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Glenn wrote: @ sailfish

You wont accept science with some proven fact's and theory's.. but you accept a book the bible (Respect) that has been written many time's over and wrong thing's added to it here and there?? I don't get it..

can you not have faifth in science that's true logic?


Glenn i like your science logic. Your great ,great great great....... Grandfather was a rock. You know  but you hide the fact that man can take a normal peace of Cole and pressurise and heat it to great temperature and then your same carbon dating tests reveal a difference of 8milliom years in age from the before and after product. So don't come with your prove of this and that date from there and then. You don't know where that samples tested came from and what conditions they went threw before they where found. Also carbon dating tests is confirmed by your scientists as not accurate at all. Just answer my questions!!! You cant answer them!!! You know what let me answer them for you. God knew you scientists will claim this and that and tried to prove your theories as stated. God made the moons and planets to turn, some this way and some that way, to piss you off and to make your theories void!!!!

I think i will rather stay with the Book that was written manny times over with wrong things added here and there. You dont say mush about the right things at the rest of the Book that is proven to be true???????

Last edited on Sat Jun 12th, 2010 11:09 pm by Sailfish

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Sailfish wrote: Glenn wrote: @ sailfish

You wont accept science with some proven fact's and theory's.. but you accept a book the bible (Respect) that has been written many time's over and wrong thing's added to it here and there?? I don't get it..

can you not have faifth in science that's true logic?

Glenn i like your science logic. Your great ,great great great....... Grandfather was a rock. You know  but you hide the fact that man can take a normal peace of Cole and pressurise and heat it to great temperature and then your same carbon dating tests reveal a difference of 8milliom years in age from the before and after product. So don't come with your prove of this and that date from there and then. You don't know where that samples tested came from and what conditions they went threw before they where found. Also carbon dating tests is confirmed by your scientists as not accurate at all. Just answer my questions!!! You cant answer them!!! You know what let me answer them for you. God knew you scientists will claim this and that and tried to prove your theories as stated. God made the moons and planets to turn, some this way and some that way, to piss you off and to make your theories void!!!!


Firstly I didn't mention anything about a rock... It was Psy if i'm not mistaken??

I like you know nothing about life and how it for formed or how it will end.. Man think's he may know the answer with test's and discovery's...

No one also know's the answer to god! Because we are not meant to.. Like you Cannot prove that god exist's only true a book and belief.

I myself believe in God just like you..(Tho i cannot prove he exixts)  I hope some day when I do leave this body saily that is merely only the beginning of a much better life ahead.

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Sailfish wrote:
I think i will rather stay with the Book that was written manny times over with wrong things added here and there. You dont say mush about the right things at the rest of the Book that is proven to be true???????

Saily if you go back to my post's.. The twin tower's I have said.. climate change I have said.. world war I have said.. Looking at a christian video about finding's way back.. This is all true and in the bible bru.

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Actually ladies, we were given the task to rule over earth and fill it, I doubt the idea was to breed like rabbits and have command over some dumb animals.

I think all the science, as well as all the facets are there for us to discover and to grow with it. If we are not ready for it, then we wouldn't discover it yet.

If you think what I say is not true, then switch your electricity off, becausa if you think about it, it is in many ways a modern world wonder. So is motor cars although newer inventions are about to make some new changes. Think about TV and the internet. People all over the world chat to one another, sharing ideas, learning things. I consider it fantastic !

Only, we have become so used to modern things (and dependant on it) that we just assume it must be there, like the sun coming up every day.

Now if you remember back in the old days when it was commonly believed that the earth was flat ok, if you said then that the earth was round they would have stoned you (a term where other 'true believers' will throw you with stones till you are dead).

It was believed once that man will never fly.

There are today many things some think is not possible because that is how some were brought up and educated, in other words the modern day 'true believers'.

If we do not question everything, and explore everything then we would never advance. I know for some change is scary, or they just do not function like that, (sorry I didn't mean to drag politics into this) others flourish on new and better and improving things.

This world of ours are yet to see some fantastic things to come. It comes from exploring, research, questioning and mastering what ever is out there for us to have.

That is the privilege of life. And that is one of the reasons I always tell every one I can - spend an hour a day to enrich yourself with the wealth of knowledge out there !

My opinion is if God didn't want us to do like I said above, he would have made us zombies that does the same thing day in and day out. We received the greatest wonder of all - the ability to think !

Sailfish
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Glenn wrote: Sailfish wrote: Glenn wrote: @ sailfish

You wont accept science with some proven fact's and theory's.. but you accept a book the bible (Respect) that has been written many time's over and wrong thing's added to it here and there?? I don't get it..

can you not have faifth in science that's true logic?

Glenn i like your science logic. Your great ,great great great....... Grandfather was a rock. You know  but you hide the fact that man can take a normal peace of Cole and pressurise and heat it to great temperature and then your same carbon dating tests reveal a difference of 8milliom years in age from the before and after product. So don't come with your prove of this and that date from there and then. You don't know where that samples tested came from and what conditions they went threw before they where found. Also carbon dating tests is confirmed by your scientists as not accurate at all. Just answer my questions!!! You cant answer them!!! You know what let me answer them for you. God knew you scientists will claim this and that and tried to prove your theories as stated. God made the moons and planets to turn, some this way and some that way, to piss you off and to make your theories void!!!!


Firstly I didn't mention anything about a rock... It was Psy if i'm not mistaken??

I like you know nothing about life and how it for formed or how it will end.. Man think's he may know the answer with test's and discovery's...

No one also know's the answer to god! Because we are not meant to.. Like you Cannot prove that god exist's only true a book and belief.

I myself believe in God just like you..(Tho i cannot prove he exixts)  I hope some day when I do leave this body saily that is merely only the beginning of a much better life ahead.



 Like you Cannot prove that god exist's only true a book and belief.

You so wrong here. I can prove it,  and so can millions of other people. He lives in me and in all that have excepted Him in their lives. You can not say you believe in God and then say you can not prove it. How many things like for instance people cured from cancer happens every day. That leaves science stunned. So many to mention that it is just called miracles!!! 

Tell Fanie the boat will be ready when you guys get here!


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Look how the world is changing.. Because that is the way it is meant to happen.. Apparently God has your life all planned out for you even before you are born?

If you think what I say is not true, then switch your electricity off, becausa if you think about it, it is in many ways a modern world wonder. So is motor cars although newer inventions are about to make some new changes. Think about TV and the internet. People all over the world chat to one another, sharing ideas, learning things. I consider it fantastic !


Correct we would not be doing this right now.. I would not know any of you guy's.. Is this a good thing?? Of course it is!! It def is fantastic..

So if god is wanting us to progress in life and learn all the thing's we are and discovering these thing's mentioned, this is the way he had wanted it to be..

But god did all this with certain element's and reason for us not to know the real truth firstly in his essence.

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The very Bibel says if you do not use your talents you will lose them.  Thinking ! is one of them :-)

The Bibel also says - to whom much is given much will be expected.  And no, it does not mean if you have a lot you must pay more tax :-D

It also means if you received - as a talent - the gift of cleverness, or the gift of intelligence - then you better use it or you will lose it.

 

Just because you do not see it from another's perspective, doesn't mean it's not right :-D  I think this picture esxplains it quite wel...

 

I hope there's no Australians who will find THIS picture offensive, good grief.

 

Attachment: 2008-11-18_040851.jpg (Downloaded 104 times)

Last edited on Sun Jun 13th, 2010 12:06 am by Fanie

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@ sailfish

You didn't get what I meant bru..

prove as god didn't live here on earth.. Back in the day's when he was on the cross was not even mentioned in any of the paper's (Tabloids) of that time.. nor was it mentioned in the court's that he was supposed to be tryed in..

That's the proof I was on about.. I'm not dis respecting your belief's.. I Still pray.. I still talk to god.. Is this someone who doesn't believe ??

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@ fanie

Please take that picture of the tread.. This tread will be locked if you don't.

I don't want to be loosing this tread.

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Just beacause you do not agree with the presented evidence, does not mean it's not actually happening.

Attachment: warmings.jpg (Downloaded 105 times)

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@ Fanie

I don't have a problem with it..

It is the rules of sealine..(I respect them) It's offensve to other's.

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What's wrong with that picture ?

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It goes under 'soft porn' if i'm not mistaken..

But hey, If you wish to keep it up.. that's your decision..

Chat tomorrow,

Good night . =)

Fanie
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If you guys don't start discussing aliens I'm outa here !

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Fanie wrote: If you guys don't start discussing aliens I'm outa here !

:lol:1

 

Firstly I think we should grill Mikey on his Alien in a jar   :alien

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Why ? He's not allowed to make a contribution like that ?

I say lets grill the alien in the jar. We need charcoal.

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Fanie wrote: Why ? He's not allowed to make a contribution like that ?

I say lets grill the alien in the jar. We need charcoal.


You very well know why we should grill him ...

Firstly, If it where real.. Why would he be in possession of it?

And why would the world not know about it ??

Ps.. The Charcoal will ONLY make the glass black so one will not see the alien!

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If he hasn't got it then who should have it ? Are you a bit jealous because you don't have one ? He did say you can have a look at it, but if he's got one and you don't then it's not his fault. Get your own. No, that's your problem.

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Fanie wrote:  Are you a bit jealous because you don't have one ?

 

::rofl:::rofl:::rofl:::rofl:::rofl:::rofl:::rofl:

:hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::hyst::lol:1:lol:1

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Saily where are you ??

After you left this morning at midnight I posted a reply to you..

There are alot of good thing's about the bible and that are true..

You can lead a horse to water.. But you can't make him drink.

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Glenn wrote: Saily where are you ??

After you left this morning at midnight I posted a reply to you..

There are alot of good thing's about the bible and that are true..

You can lead a horse to water.. But you can't make him drink.

I am still here!! Just cant believe you guys go ape over a Alien in a flask, when i got a real live one.  She, yes you read it rite. SHEEEEEE!!! is my X mother in law :alien

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I bet you won't talk like that when she lands with her broom there next to you...

Last edited on Sun Jun 13th, 2010 02:19 pm by Fanie

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Fanie wrote: I bet you won't talk like that when she lands with her broom there next to you...
Man if she lands next to me on her Broomstick i will take a baseball bat and she will know what is the real feeling of time travel. I will Bl1k51m her into time til Kingdom come.

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Shame, nee sies Seilvis man. Sy't ook mos ingewande en derms en goed, hoe moet sy nou voel :-D

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Lets say you are floating in free space outside your space ship and you throw a ball at it.

In theory you and the ball would be going in opposite directions, right, the ball towards the space ship and you away from it because the same energy propelling the ball away from you is applied to you away from the ball. Opposite but equal forces applied (as per Einstein was it ?)


Ok so now the ball bounces off the space ship and comes back at you. When you catch it your momentum (and speed) would accellerate from that, the ball's momentum (kinetic energy) added to your's.

Is this right ? If you keep doing the same thing in theory you would propell yourself faster and faster away from the space ship.

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Fanie wrote: Lets say you are floating in free space outside your space ship and you throw a ball at it.

In theory you and the ball would be going in opposite directions, right, the ball towards the space ship and you away from it because the same energy propelling the ball away from you is applied to you away from the ball. Opposite but equal forces applied (as per Einstein was it ?)


Ok so now the ball bounces off the space ship and comes back at you. When you catch it your momentum (and speed) would accellerate from that, the ball's momentum (kinetic energy) added to your's.

Is this right ? If you keep doing the same thing in theory you would propell yourself faster and faster away from the space ship.

 

No. The ball (solid rubber ball) will go towards the ship and you will stay where you are. The ball did not apply any fores on you. You where the energy that propelled the ball away from you. Now if the ball comes back you will certainly start moving if you catch it yes.
Can see where you are going with this. Please continue. You gonne hang yourself with this one.

Last edited on Sun Jun 13th, 2010 04:17 pm by Sailfish

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No. The ball (solid rubber ball) will go towards the ship and you will stay where you are.

If this was true, then a gun would not have a recoil !

You cannot apply a force in one direction only.  There has to be an equal an opposite force.

Last edited on Sun Jun 13th, 2010 04:24 pm by Fanie

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Fanie wrote: No. The ball (solid rubber ball) will go towards the ship and you will stay where you are.

If this was true, then a gun would not have a recoil !

You cannot apply a force in one direction only.  There has to be an equal an opposite force.

100% TRUE. But you said i was in space. No atmosphere and no gravity.

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If you push the ball away from you then the same force on the ball is pushing against you as well, but in the other direction than the ball.

If you were pushing against the space ship, you would be pushed away, right ! Same as the ball, the ship would go in one direction, you in the other.

The only difference is because the ball is light, it would go faster because it's mass is less. But the amount of energy or momentum you and the ball have would be exactly the same.

Agree ?

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No. If you take your hand with the ball and you make that you trow a ball. Remember you are in space. No atmospheric pressure on neither you or the ball. But you don,t release the ball. No action. Remember in space you got no wait. You are weightless. No gravity no wait. So if the ball is weightless there will be no reaction when you propel it away from you. It is not like the bullet of a gun. There you have a explosion and that causes force in all direction within the bullet chamber. Only when the point leaves the bullet canister in a certain direction the force now have a opposite and equal reaction. You press your body away from a stable object in space you will move away from it with the same speed you applied to push. Same as hitting a baseball with a bat. The bat still follows threw and the ball is out of there. You don't go backwards at the same speed. Force equal and opposite reaction. Here the ball is dead and the bats force and speed is way more than the weight of the ball. All this in atmosphere and with gravity

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With you and the ball in space there is no gravity, but you have mass. It still takes energy to start moving and accellerating mass in a direction. The same amount of energy you apply to the ball will be applied to you.

Weighing nothing in space only means there is no gravity to give a constant pull in one direction. So as long as you keep still, you weigh nothing.

The moment you give something speed, the mass of the object comes into play. So if two meteor's travel at 1000's of km/hr and colide they destroy one another because their mass is huge as a result of their speed.

The faster anything goes, on earth or in space, the larger the mass gets, and it is predicted at the speed of light your mass (or that of the ball) will become infinity. Mass, ok, not size or weight.

If you do the same on earth the only difference would be that gravity would pull everything down.

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I see a nice practical experiment coming up::S

Anybody got Mark Shuttleworth's number - I'm looking for a sponsor for a space flight

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Ok so when the ball bounces back off the space ship you already have a little bit of speed, that which you applied to the ball.

Now when you catch the ball in space you would increase your current speed. Why ? The energy you had plus that of the ball, is going to accellerate you.

To get back to the ship you would have to hrow the ball a lot harder in the direction you travel to chang direction.

So if you're floating in your space ship and you do not move any wrt the space ship, you will never be able to get to the water bottle in the shelf. You may hence float there forever. To get there, you can take your boot off (assume you have air pessure at least) and throw it away from the water bottle, and you will be traveling towards the water bottle.

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The thing to remember is that energy is never lost, it always goes somewhere, be it movement, heat, or any other kind you get. Adding it together will always add up to the total amount of energy first applied.

The thing you do not want to hear in space is 'oops' when you didn't catch the ball :-D You'll keep on travelling away from the space shuttle... and have no means of reversing your direction.

Btw, they say that if one billion of the Chinese in China all jump up at the same time, there is enough energy to pull earth out of it's orbit...

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Lets say you stand on a 10000m high mountain and there's a cliff 100% 90 degrees down to earth. It is perfectly wind still and you drop a round ghoen one meter away from the cliff's edge to fall free.

What will happen ? Will it fall streight down or will it change direction ?

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It will hit the sides of the wall constantly til it hits bottom. Tried to trow a rock in the water at the Kimberly open mine once. Even with me throwing it far out the rock hit sides first before it entered water. Earths gravitational force!

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Ok so gravity is not just down, anything that has mass has gravitational force on anything else with mass.

So if you take two items and place them perfectly still in space, then they would begin to drift towards each other because of their gravitational force - however small or big if the items are big.

Now if you tie a ball to a piece of rope and swing it vertically around, then when it goes up it will decrease speed a bit and coming down it will increase speed.

If you swing the ball around slower and slower to the point where the ball does not pull on the rope, but does not fall down either, that is the exact point where the mass and gravity of the earth balances out.

In exactly the same way is the moon being swung around the earth. The mass of the earth and that of the moon as well as the speed of the moon around earth is in balance so the moon does not get flung out of orbit, neither does it come crashing down on earth.

The same applies for us orbiting around the sun.

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If you send the fishing buddy to collect red bait from the red planet Mars, you may have to sling shot him through the gravitational force of the moon say to get his speed up or he's not going to have enough fuel to return from Mars.

So what you do is you charge down on the moon at an angle so that when you get close to it the gravitational force attracts your buddy and gives him more speed, so much so that when he travelled part way round the moon his speed becomes so fast that his incresed mass breaks away from orbit and slings him in the direction he is supposed to go - at greate speed. Almost like when you let go of the line when you cast to get the bait out there. You sling shot your bait out there.

This is called rocket science :-D Imagine if your calculation is only one degree out, your budy may return with some aliens a few thousand light years later but he'll miss Mars by quite a bit.

It will ruin the fishing trip though.

Sailfish
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Does the moon also rotate round its own axel like earth do?

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Nope, we always only see one face of the moon - the same old view all the time.

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If you have to go somewhere you have to have propulsion of some sorts. This means you have to have fuel enough to travel to where you want to go. Once at a certain speed you could probably free for great distances, but to get to enough speed..

The first requirement is some energy source

The problem is the distances is very large, just consider how fast light travels, then a light year is the distance the light will travel in a year's time.

Second is you have to go very fast.

How about food and water ? You will have to have a food and water source that will sustain you for a long time.

We assume all living things have to consume something to stay alive...

Now if you consider what is needed, IF there are aliens out there, would they be intelligent or not ?

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Fanie wrote: Nope, we always only see one face of the moon - the same old view all the time.
Bwhahaha. Told you you gonne hang yourself. It does rotate on its own axle. It rotates to the opposite direction in which it rotate round earth. Takes 28 days to complete one rotation round it's own axle. The same time it takes to go once round earth. That is why we only see the same side all the time.  It wasn't Einsteins theory it was Newton 

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We all know the earth is already too small for us all to live on it, but what if we can expand it's size.

Let's say we can find a way to lower the moon onto earth and put it down in the free state (not going on much there any way), then surely the seas and atmosphere will go around it as well because of it's gravity, greatley increase living areas (and we can brag with the biggest socca ball at least if you paint it).

The gravity should not be impaired every where too much, trees makes oxygen as does lightning.

Then if we keep on doing that, what are the chances of builing a chain of 'earths' ?

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The Moon is in synchronous rotation: it rotates about its axis in about the same time it takes to orbit the Earth. This results in it nearly always keeping the same face turned towards the Earth

Read on it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon

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If it rotates like that then earth has to be it's axis center, it does not rotate like earth rotates around it's poles as the axis.

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tauruck wrote: They do exist.

I've had this okie for years.

Glenn, Next time you're im S.A. I'll show you.

Hi Mikey, that looks uncannily like my mother in law, does  that make my wife allien? Ok all jokes at an end, what i can add to this debate is that i am an boertjie, my parents made sure i went to sundayschool and church every sunday, hell i was a believer ,or so i thought, then i turned 17 and started questioning, fist question was, how long is eternity, now that one no one could answer me, or shall i say satisfactorily answer me. This ate at me untill i went into the army, there i had an big argument with a conscript chaplain of my denomination about the way he carried over news of death in the family of one of my troops. All i can say is there is a GOD, believe me after a few near death experiences everyone believes, even if it is for a few days, have a couple and you will always believe.

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Fanie wrote: We all know the earth is already too small for us all to live on it, but what if we can expand it's size.

Let's say we can find a way to lower the moon onto earth and put it down in the free state (not going on much there any way), then surely the seas and atmosphere will go around it as well because of it's gravity, greatley increase living areas (and we can brag with the biggest socca ball at least if you paint it).

The gravity should not be impaired every where too much, trees makes oxygen as does lightning.

Then if we keep on doing that, what are the chances of builing a chain of 'earths' ?


You can fit the wolds current population in 20squer km. When last did you take a drive threw the country side. There is enough place for +50 times the current population. To keep them alive is a different story. We better stop shopping down them trees that make us oxygen. Stop polluting our water and start growing some food.

If you take moon away from where it is now we will all die in one second.

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does that make my wife allien?
Eish. Some okes are only brave when their wives doesn't see what they do eh !

what i can add to this debate
Help us expand the earth so we have more places to fish :-D

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If you take moon away from where it is now we will all die in one second.

Why ?

Sailfish
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Fanie wrote: If it rotates like that then earth has to be it's axis center, it does not rotate like earth rotates around it's poles as the axis.
It has to rotate or it will have no gravity of it's own. If earth was it's center of axis, earth would have pulled it closer within a week because earth turns much faster round it's own axis. If you take your fist and extend your arm and start turning yourself round in one place. You will see your fist from the same direction and view the hole time. Now try and let your fist slow down but your body keeps the same speed. You will start to see a different view of your fist as it gets behind from turning slower than the center. Also now the force to keep it at the same distance will increace dew to the fist getting behind. Same with the moon. The moon is set in a  rotation round earth turning round its own axis. Earths gravitational force keeps it there at a constant distance. Dew to global warming and earth changing slowly the gravitational force on the moon is weakening and the moon is slowly but surely increasing it's distance from earth. The tides of the see (Eb and Neap) has considerably changed over the last 1000 years.

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Fanie wrote: If you take moon away from where it is now we will all die in one second.

Why ?

Because the moons gravitational force keeps the earths rotational speed at a constant.

Fanie
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the Earth and Moon are still considered a planet–satellite system, rather than a double-planet system, as their barycentre, the common centre of mass, is located about 1,700 km (about a quarter of the Earth's radius) beneath the surface of the Earth


Have I ever lied to you :-D

 

Something doesn't have to rotate to have gravity. 

 

Eh china, read the links I posted.  It says it all there.  I'm asking questions in 15 mins time... :?

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Fanie wrote: the Earth and Moon are still considered a planet–satellite system, rather than a double-planet system, as their barycentre, the common centre of mass, is located about 1,700 km (about a quarter of the Earth's radius) beneath the surface of the Earth


Have I ever lied to you :-D

 

Something doesn't have to rotate to have gravity. 

 

Eh china, read the links I posted.  It says it all there.  I'm asking questions in 15 mins time... :?



I have read that when i studied my T3 exam on theory of flight and aircraft design.

So where is the moons constant centre and where does the common force link to the moon???

First you said the moon don't rotate on its own axis and now you want to ask me questions???::S::S::S:fbash

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@ Sailfish

That just remind's me..

If the moon was even to change, that would cause a serious change in our tide's & sea's.. The fishing would be up the left.. Alot of thing's rely on the moon..

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Hey Guy's,

I was talking to a minster today while I was at work and we just happened to pass each other's path's..

I said to him that I was having a discussion about the earth and how it was made and creation..

Funny thing he gave me a name and told me to have a read.. It was a Scientist who became a christian through his finding's etc.. His name is Kenneth Alfred Ham

Kenneth Alfred Ham (born October 20, 1951) is the Australian-born president of Answers in Genesis USA.[1] A vocal advocate for a young Earth and a literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis[2], his cross-country speaking tours and many books make him one of the better known young-Earth creationists.[3]

 

Biography

Ham was born in Queensland, Australia but moved to the United States of America in 1987. He has a bachelor's degree in applied science (with an emphasis on environmental biology) from the Queensland Institute of Technology and also holds a Diploma of Education from the University of Queensland.[4] On December 30 1972 he married Marilyn ("Mally")[5], whom he describes as a "very, very submissive, supportive wife" who has "always supported me five million percent".[6] The couple have five children—two are married and two live with them in the Cincinnati area—and have five grandchildren.[4]

In 1979, Ham co-founded what was to be later known as the Creation Science Foundation (CSF) in Queensland, Australia with John Mackay.[7][8] Controversy arose when Mackay "was excommunicated in the 1980s after making allegations of witchcraft and necrophilia against a fellow member of the ministry".[9]

 
Between 1987 and 1993, Ham worked for the Institute for Creation Research (ICR),[chronology source needed] one of the oldest[10] American Creationist organisations, and a leading young-Earth organisation.[11] In 1994, with the assistance of what is now Creation Ministries International (Australia), Ham and colleagues Mark Looy and Mike Zovath set up Creation Science Ministries, later renamed Answers in Genesis.[12] The Christian ministry specialises in Young Earth Creationism, and is primarily devoted to convincing people that the initial chapters in Genesis should be taken as literally true and historically accurate. For his contributions to evangelism, he has been granted two honorary degrees (by Temple Baptist College in 1997[13] and by Liberty University in 2004[14]). Answers in Genesis opened its $27 million,[15] 70,000 sq ft (6,500 m2)[16] Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky on May 28, 2007.

Also in May 2007, Creation Ministries International (CMI) filed a lawsuit against Ham and AiG in the Supreme Court of Queensland seeking damages and accusing him of deceptive conduct in his dealings with the Australian organization. Members of the ministry were "concern[ed] over Mr Ham's domination of the ministries, the amount of money being spent on his fellow executives and a shift away from delivering the creationist message to raising donations."[9] According to the CMI website, this dispute was amicably settled in April 2009.[17]

In 2008, Ham appeared in Bill Maher's comedy Religulous.[18] In a press release AiG criticized the movie for what it called Maher's "dishonesty last year in gaining access to the Creation Museum and AiG President Ken Ham."[19]

Ham hosts Answers. . . with Ken Ham, an internet and radio program broadcasting daily on over nine hundred radio stations worldwide[20] and featuring Ham's commentary on issues.[21]

 

Beliefs

 

As a young Earth creationist, Ham believes that the entire universe was created about 6,000 years ago and that Noah's flood occurred about 4,500 years ago. In addition, he uses some intelligent design arguments.[3] He believes that this explains how a small number of animals carried on Noah's ark could produce the biological diversity observed on Earth. Ham also believes that dinosaurs co-existed with modern humans. He supports this claim with a cave painting that he states resembles a brachiosaur.[22] Ham is known for interpreting available evidence against his minority opinion of the book of Genesis. He once said to a Christian audience, "If you disagree with what I'm going to say, please do not give me your opinion, because I'm not interested...I want to know what the Bible says."[23]

Ham accepts that natural selection can give rise to a number of species from an original population, by Mendelian recombination of already existing genes. He believes that new genes cannot arise from mutations, because this would be "adding information" (he claims that only intelligence can cause a beneficial mutation); instead, mutations and natural selection can only "remove preexisting information."[24] Furthermore, all of these species are of the same kind and no new kind can arise from this process.

Creationism, including creation science arguments, have not gained acceptance with most prominent scientists and major scientific organizations,[25] or the overwhelming majority of scientists.[26] Biologist PZ Myers is also a vocal critic of Ham, calling his knowledge of science "very, very low" and that Ham is held in "very low esteem by the community of scholars and scientists, and by the even larger community of lay people who have made the effort to learn more about science".[27][28]No Answers in Genesis has listed a number of specific criticisms of Ham's teachings on science. [29]

Since 1989, Ham has frequently made the comment, "Were you there?" regarding the origins of life and evolution,[30] seeming to imply that knowledge of unwitnessed events is inferential and not observational. Responses to this have been made by scientific database Talk.origins, which responds that the evidence for evolution "was there."[31] In 2005, The Daily Show poked fun at Ham's question.[32]

AiG believes that evolution is the "source" of many kinds of evil, and that rejection of God's Word as absolute authority and acceptance of evolutionary ideas will affect the way people think and act, and thereby fuel social ills.[33]

Ham's beliefs and tactics have also been criticized by other Christians and creationists. Answers in Creation, an Old Earth creationist web site, has called Ham willfully ignorant of evidence for an old earth and said that he "deliberately misleads" his audiences on matters of both science and theology.[34] Astronomer Hugh Ross, a progressive creationist, has publicly debated Ham on the age of the Earth and the compatibility of an old Earth with the Bible,[35] as well as other Answers In Genesis staff.[36]

 

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Ham's Big Bang
Cheryl Capra and John Stear



KEN HAM ON EDUCATION! -- The "big bang" -- it's just a dud!
(February 15, 2002)


Ken Ham:   Question:  What is now being said regarding the "big bang" idea about the origin of the universe?

Ken Ham
:   Answer:  A popular and expensive documentary appeared in Australia in 2000.  It portrayed the "big bang" as a fact.


Ken Ham:    Answers in Genesis rejects the "big bang" not only because it is wrong scientifically, but also (and most importantly) because the Bible teaches against it.   One example is that the Bible reveals that the Earth was created before the Sun, while the "big bang" says that the Sun was created before the Earth - a direct contradiction!


Ken Ham is a raving Bibliot and is totally delusional as well. Big Bang cosmology says absolutely nothing regarding the development of our particular solar system. It is in fact the best scientifically and mathematically supported contender for an explanation of the development of this Universe.

The theory applicable to the development of solar systems relates to the gravitational collapse of nebulae which, as it is currently understood, leads to the concurrent development of a star (or stars) and gravitationally bound planets should there be enough rubble and gas in the solar nebula for planetary formation to take place. (Hence the Sun and Earth would have formed at much the same time, although the completion of the modern solar system had quite a way to go even after our star began nuclear fusion.)

I know 12 and 13 year olds who have a better understanding of the relevant theories than Ken Ham. You'd have to wonder if he's ever read any data on the topic at all. He seems to have spent his time refuting a half-baked Ham version of the Big Bang. Talk about straw-men!!
Ken Ham:    Furthermore, there are even evolutionary scientists who don't accept this idea - not just creationists.

How many and names please Mr Ham.
  And what is their science?  Unless it is astronomy, astrophysics or cosmology they wouldn't necessarily know any more about the structure and origin of the Universe than you Mr Ham – and that's a pretty minute amount.Ken Ham:    Also in this documentary (called "Universe") the question of extraterrestrial life was brought up.  The narrator confidently declared that there is intelligent life in outer space.  Why haven't we found it yet?  "So far", he said, "the aliens have been coy!"

This has absolutely nothing to do with the veracity or otherwise of Big Bang cosmology.

Ken Ham:    The creation account in the Bible is logical when it comes to the question of the origins of life and the universe.  Psalm 19:1 says that the heavens declare the glory of God; they certainly don't show any evidence of being created by a "big bang" explosion!

No evidence? Ken Ham is the typical creationist.  Even if he sees something occurring with his own eyes and it contradicts the Bible he won't believe it.   The fact is, we can actually
see the Big Bang! Every time we switch on a television we see evidence of the background radiation left from the Big Bang.

According to Ken Ham's biography he has "... a bachelor's degree in applied science (with an emphasis on environmental biology) [which] was awarded by the Queensland Institute of Technology. He also holds a Diploma of Education (equivalent to a master's degree in America) from the University of Queensland." It would be a fair to assume therefore that he is aware of some basic cosmology. For example, he should know that light travels at an enormous but finite speed.   He should know that when we look at the sun we see it as it was eight minutes ago. Similarly he should know that we see the moon as it was a few seconds ago. He should know that it takes over four years for the light from the next closest star to reach Earth. He should know that the nearest spiral galaxy is about 2.2 million light years (ly) away (a light year is the distance light travels in a year); others are a good deal further.   He should know that many of the stars we see in the sky may not exist at this moment but we can't know because the light of their supernovas won't reach us for quite a while.  

One would expect that having set himself up as an expert in cosmological science (albeit Biblical cosmology) Mr Ham would be aware of the latest findings concerning Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).  CMBR permeates the whole cosmos, arriving at Earth from all directions in our sky. Its two discoverers, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, received the Nobel Prize in physics for discovering it in 1965. That has allowed a fair time for any attacks on the veracity of what it represents to be successful, as evidence for the Big Bang is well substantiated. The CMBR is not the BIG Bang but rather the afterglow or embers of the seething sea of radiation which was the Big Bang. On its journey through space-time (over 12 billion years) it has been shifted along the electromagnetic (EM) spectrum to the microwave radiation band. Similarly, light from distant stars and galaxies is shifted into the red band of the EM spectrum's visible light band.  

If Mr Ham is not aware of these findings (and he probably isn't) then his anti science crusade becomes even more despicable. Armed with little more than ignorance and the Bible he proclaims there is no evidence for the Big Bang.  Anyone who wilfully disregards the scientific evidence and teaches that the Earth was created before the Sun deserves the highest condemnation.

It's interesting to note that Mr Ham and Answers in Genesis, in declaring the Big Bang to be "wrong scientifically", are not only casting aspersions on science and scientists (in this case, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson who, by dint of their hard work and extraordinary scholarship, received the Nobel Prize) but on the Nobel Foundation itself.   


Mr Ham doesn't teach science, he teaches ignorance.  If the children Ken Ham influences through his home schooling programs succumb to his anti science they will be ill equipped indeed to deal with life in the 21st century.

tauruck
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Joined: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008
Location: Buccleuch., South Africa
Posts: 4512
Equipment: Daiwa, Fenwick rods, Bg20, Ambassadeur C4 bait casters.
Best Catch: Shad, Rock Cod, Daga.
Favorite Fishing Spot: Mtwalume, Pumula, Umzumbe, Oslo beach.
Boat: "Big Kahuna" coming soon!
Club: 9 iron.
Status: 
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Mana: 
There are one or two of Ken Ham's kids right here on Sealine!.^^..

Fanie
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Feb 14th, 2008
Location: Centurion
Posts: 5843
Equipment: Art lure, Bagleys (what else !)
Best Catch: 2 SA art lure records and a few others over ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: Die groot plas !!
Boat: Power and Sailing Fishing
Club: 
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Mana: 
The big bang is just a theory based on the fact that the stars are moving further apart, ie everything is expanding.

Psy
Sealiner


Joined: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008
Location: Langvlei Duine, Wildernis., South Africa
Posts: 6923
Equipment: Blue Marlin's/Assasins/Pentagons c/w Shimano's
Best Catch: All sorts
Favorite Fishing Spot: ><((((((ō>
Boat: ><((((((ō>
Club: <ō))))))><
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Mana: 
This weekend is the winter solstice. I am doing 2 special Winter Solstice trips to Adam's Calendar and the ruins in Waterval Boven this weekend. Sunrise and sunset trips. This is a limited offer as we can only accomodate 10 people per event. Please share this with those who may want to join us. See details below and conact Adele if you would like to join us.  Bookings:  Adele 082 948 8218 or adele@zuluplanet.com
Keep Exploring
Michael Tellinger

Winter Solstice Tour 1 - Sunset at Adam's Calendar:
DATE:  Saturday 19th of June 2010
COST:  R 1 100 p/p
VENUE:  STONE CIRCLE BISTRO – 17 Zasm Avenue – Waterval Boven
TIME:  10:00am until Sunset
DESCRIPTION: 
Your journey begins with a guided tour through the Makomati Museum at the Stone Circle Bistro in Waterval Boven on Saturday Morning 19th of June at 10:00. After about 30 minutes in the Museum, guests will then depart in their own vehicles to the Ancient Ruins that are situated 10 minutes away from Waterval Boven. In the afternoon we travel to Kaapschehoop the home of the Ancient Monolithic site known as Adam’s Calendar. The coming Winter Solstice provides us once again with a spectacular opportunity to experience the full magnificence of Adam’s Calendar as we watch the sunset at the site.
Tour Includes:
• Breakfast at Stone Circle Bistro Waterval Boven
• A guided museum tour by Michael Tellinger
• A guided tour of  a number of Stone Circle Ruins in the Waterval Boven region
• Lunch at Stone Circle Bistro, Waterval Boven
• Sunset Tour at Adam’s Calendar with Michael Tellinger

Winter Solstice Tour  2 - Sunrise at Adam's Calendar:
DATE:  Sunday 20th of June 2010
COST:  R 1 000 p/p
VENUE:  SALVADORE BISTRO - Kaapschehoop
 TIME:  06:00
DESCRIPTION The coming Winter Solstice provides us once again with a spectacular opportunity to experience the full magnificence of Adam’s Calendar in Kaapschehoop as we watch the sunrise at the site.  After Sunrise tour guests will be driving to the Stone Circle Bistro in Waterval Boven for a guided tour through the Makomati Museum and enjoy lunch.  Guests will then depart in their own vehicles to the Ancient Ruins that are situated 10 minutes away from Waterval Boven.
 Tour Includes:
• Sunset Tour of Adam’s Calendar with Michael Tellinger
• A guided museum tour  by Michael Tellinger
• Brunch at Stone Circle Bistro, Waterval B oven
• A guided tour to  a number of Stone Circle Ruins in the Waterval Boven region

Attachment: Ancient%20roads.jpg (Downloaded 112 times)

Fanie
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Feb 14th, 2008
Location: Centurion
Posts: 5843
Equipment: Art lure, Bagleys (what else !)
Best Catch: 2 SA art lure records and a few others over ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: Die groot plas !!
Boat: Power and Sailing Fishing
Club: 
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Mana: 
Hi PSY,

Be interesting to hear a bit about the history...

Glenn
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
Club: The Glenn You Can Kiss My Ass Club!
Status: 
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Mana: 
NEWS : State Representative Henry W. McElroy, Jr. admits UFO visitations, well worth a look ....

 









Last edited on Tue Jun 15th, 2010 08:26 pm by Glenn

Psy
Sealiner


Joined: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008
Location: Langvlei Duine, Wildernis., South Africa
Posts: 6923
Equipment: Blue Marlin's/Assasins/Pentagons c/w Shimano's
Best Catch: All sorts
Favorite Fishing Spot: ><((((((ō>
Boat: ><((((((ō>
Club: <ō))))))><
Status: 
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Mana: 
Dear Simon

I will be doing a full day workshop next weekend on the 26th June at the picturesque Cranes Nest Mountain Retreat near Nelspruit. Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot will be present to answer questions from those who are familiar with her amazing investigative work over the past decade.
AND - a half-day workshop at Hartebeespoort Dam on the 10th July 2010. I will combine the Slave Species of god work with discovering the ancient ruins and the evidence for the first Anunnaki settlements on Earth, right here in South Africa. Please share this with others who may want to attend. See details below contact adele@zuluplanet.com  082 348 3019.

Keep exploring
Michael Tellinger
 
CRANES NEST MOUNTAIN LODGE – KWENA BASIN – MPUMALANGA
Full Day Workshop - With Special guest Kerry Cassidy - Project Camelot.
DATE:  Saturday 26th of June 2010
VENUE:  CRANES NEST MOUNTAIN LODGE – Kwena Basin - Mpumalanga
TIME:  10:00 am will finish at 5 pm Includes light Luncheon / Cash Bar Available COST:  R 450 p/p
Special Rates for Adams Calendar Tours on Sunday 27th of June 2010  


HARTEBEESPOORT DAM – NORTH WEST - Half Day Workshop
DATE:  Saturday 10th of July 2010
VENUE:   BULLENS BUSH LODGE – Near Haarties
TIME:  09:00 FOR 9: 30 AM will finish at 14:00
Includes light Snacks, coffee & tea.
COST:   R250 p/p

 

Attachment: securedownload.jpg (Downloaded 175 times)

Glenn
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
Club: The Glenn You Can Kiss My Ass Club!
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Gent's I posted a video exposing the truth about Alien encounter's..

NEWS : State Representative Henry W. McElroy, Jr. admits UFO visitations..

What do you guy's think of this video ????????????????????

shadcatcher
Resigned


Joined: Fri Mar 26th, 2010
Location: Durban, South Africa
Posts: 50
Equipment: Shimano and Assassins
Best Catch: 8kg Shad, 140 kg blackfin, 202 kg raggie. 88kg bronzie, ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: Toti
Boat: None
Club: not yet
Status: 
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Mana: 
Glenn wrote: Gent's I posted a video exposing the truth about Alien encounter's..

NEWS : State Representative Henry W. McElroy, Jr. admits UFO visitations..

What do you guy's think of this video ????????????????????

Hey glen i there any truth to the rumour that you were abducted by aliens and that they inserted probes into certain areas of your body?? And that you now what to find them so that you can take revenge?? Just something I heard....

 


 

Glenn
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
Club: The Glenn You Can Kiss My Ass Club!
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
shadcatcher wrote: Glenn wrote: Gent's I posted a video exposing the truth about Alien encounter's..

NEWS : State Representative Henry W. McElroy, Jr. admits UFO visitations..

What do you guy's think of this video ????????????????????

Hey glen i there any truth to the rumour that you were abducted by aliens and that they inserted probes into certain areas of your body?? And that you now what to find them so that you can take revenge?? Just something I heard....

 


 

It is true ...... ::teas::

Carlic Bait
Sealiner


Joined: Mon Nov 24th, 2008
Location: Parow, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 2359
Equipment: Daiwa SL50H ; Blue Marlin 5 Pc
Best Catch: 45Kg Bronze ; 23Kg Cob
Favorite Fishing Spot: Saldanha
Boat: Still waiting for this present from wife.....
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Glenn wrote: Gent's I posted a video exposing the truth about Alien encounter's..

NEWS : State Representative Henry W. McElroy, Jr. admits UFO visitations..

What do you guy's think of this video ????????????????????
How sure are you it is the truth? Do you believe those videos? I find it interesting but hard to believe.I also saw strange things but it could have been illusions ,however it was convincing enough for me,but not to make a story of it.

Nightfox
Senior Member


Joined: Wed Oct 1st, 2008
Location: Queenstown, South Africa
Posts: 1071
Equipment: Berkley air extreme - berkley venom taipan - penn slammer ...
Best Catch: All my catches on lure.
Favorite Fishing Spot: Transkei
Boat: Nope
Club: a toon when the fish bites
Status: 
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Mana: 
Sailfish wrote:
Fanie wrote: I bet you won't talk like that when she lands with her broom there next to you...
Man if she lands next to me on her Broomstick i will take a baseball bat and she will know what is the real feeling of time travel. I will Bl1k51m her into time til Kingdom come.
nothing to do, busy with the daunting task of reading through this whole thread until i came across this...man i wish i could do the same!!! LOL!!

Glenn
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
Club: The Glenn You Can Kiss My Ass Club!
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Carlic Bait wrote:
Glenn wrote: Gent's I posted a video exposing the truth about Alien encounter's..

NEWS : State Representative Henry W. McElroy, Jr. admits UFO visitations..

What do you guy's think of this video ????????????????????
How sure are you it is the truth? Do you believe those videos? I find it interesting but hard to believe.I also saw strange things but it could have been illusions ,however it was convincing enough for me,but not to make a story of it.


Hi there Carlic Bait,

The video in question is true... Very true.. In fact the guy in question used to be very high in state U.S.A.

I am a person who give's everything a chance!

And to that answer I'm also very confident that we as humans are NOT the only existence in the world.

I myself if you read back encountered a ghost when I was 15 or so.. Seeing with my own eye's made me believe and i'm sure everyone else would be the same.

Though what I don't believe in is the tooth fairy, as I caught my mum trying to replace money for my tooth when I was a kid! :fbash

What was your experience ?????

Carlic Bait
Sealiner


Joined: Mon Nov 24th, 2008
Location: Parow, Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 2359
Equipment: Daiwa SL50H ; Blue Marlin 5 Pc
Best Catch: 45Kg Bronze ; 23Kg Cob
Favorite Fishing Spot: Saldanha
Boat: Still waiting for this present from wife.....
Club: No
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Glenn wrote: Carlic Bait wrote:
Glenn wrote: Gent's I posted a video exposing the truth about Alien encounter's..

NEWS : State Representative Henry W. McElroy, Jr. admits UFO visitations..

What do you guy's think of this video ????????????????????
How sure are you it is the truth? Do you believe those videos? I find it interesting but hard to believe.I also saw strange things but it could have been illusions ,however it was convincing enough for me,but not to make a story of it.


Hi there Carlic Bait,

The video in question is true... Very true.. In fact the guy in question used to be very high in state U.S.A.

I am a person who give's everything a chance!

And to that answer I'm also very confident that we as humans are NOT the only existence in the world.

I myself if you read back encountered a ghost when I was 15 or so.. Seeing with my own eye's made me believe and i'm sure everyone else would be the same.

Though what I don't believe in is the tooth fairy, as I caught my mum trying to replace money for my tooth when I was a kid! :fbash

What was your experience ?????
Now i don't feel alone.My "ghost"encounter was during my "army"days 1963/64 on a weekend pass i spend with a young woman in a well  maintained house "alone".One week later i went back to look for her to inform that i am going to Walvisbay.All i could find was what was left of what must have been a smart building 100 or more years back.The used to be well Kept garden a week ago was the grass and weeds a meter high and the building was just ruins .
E.T.---well strange lights and a object making a 90degree turn at high speed near the southern cross.

porkhead
Sealiner


Joined: Mon Jun 1st, 2009
Location: St Mikes, Kzn, South Africa
Posts: 1074
Equipment: Grandwave 50 (400m braid backing 200m .55 Double X ...
Best Catch: King Fish, Garrick, Hammerhead, Big Grey
Favorite Fishing Spot: Orange Rocks, Uvongo, Margate, Trafalgar
Boat: Soon.....
Club: The Regulars and Mother Nature.
Status: 
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Mana: 
I have seen a UFO before. A small blue light travelling at a crazy speed across the horizon and then zig zagged and was gone.

I have also had the terrifying experience of being visited by a demon, as I speak about it now... I have goosebumps and want to start crying. It was the most hectic thing that I have ever experienced. I was sitting on my bed, depressed after the breakup of my first marriage. This presence came up behind me and when I turned around to look what it was I saw this large dark form just standing in the corner of the room. To this day it scares me.

God Bless us all.

Thunder
Senior Member
 

Joined: Sun Feb 7th, 2010
Location: Gauteng, South Africa
Posts: 634
Equipment: light to heavy
Best Catch: +- 250kg raggie but best is my sexy wife!!!!
Favorite Fishing Spot: south coast
Boat: whats that? No money
Club: No
Status: 
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Mana: 
Hey manne,
If you are a believer in God Almighty, no harm will come to you. ALL THESE ALLIENS ETC IS THE DEVIL ATTACKING PEOPLE! Let him be and dont give him any credit. Give God all the glory!

The more you speak about it the more he is in discussion and he likes it then he knows more people are aware of him. Put him under your feet!

Not preaching but just telling facts!!!!!!!!!

tuna
Sealiner


Joined: Wed Feb 27th, 2008
Location: George, South Africa
Posts: 5785
Equipment: Double x line. Berkley braid,Colgate Dental floss for windon leader ...
Best Catch: Double x line. Berkley braid,Colgate Dental floss for windon leader ...Bronze of 413kg, Raggie 486kg, Spotty 40kg,Tigerfish 44.5kg Groot kurper ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: Namibia and Robberg point, visdammetjie by die huis
Boat: no boat!... got a lilo at home
Club: 
Status: 
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Mana: 
Thunder wrote: Hey manne,
If you are a believer in God Almighty, no harm will come to you. ALL THESE ALLIENS ETC IS THE DEVIL ATTACKING PEOPLE! Let him be and dont give him any credit. Give God all the glory!

The more you speak about it the more he is in discussion and he likes it then he knows more people are aware of him. Put him under your feet!

Not preaching but just telling facts!!!!!!!!!

amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WWFisherman
Senior Member


Joined: Tue Mar 24th, 2009
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 408
Equipment: Various Fly, Bass, R&S and ski tackle
Best Catch: Umgeni CC, playing at point
Favorite Fishing Spot: Kamberg and Wild Coast
Boat: Pinnacle
Club: Dabs Canoe Club
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Thunder wrote: Hey manne,
If you are a believer in God Almighty, no harm will come to you.

Because bullets just bounce off Christians…

Glenn
Sealiner


Joined: Thu Sep 17th, 2009
Location: N.I
Posts: 2896
Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
Club: The Glenn You Can Kiss My Ass Club!
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
Thunder wrote:
Hey manne,
If you are a believer in God Almighty, no harm will come to you. ALL THESE ALLIENS ETC IS THE DEVIL ATTACKING PEOPLE! Let him be and dont give him any credit. Give God all the glory!

The more you spe