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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 09:43 am
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101st Post
WWFisherman
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Mana: 
Simen wrote: Glenn all good and well. Lets say man evolved out of an atom and dust and whatever.

Either I am missing the point here or you are. Read above in blue. Even a dinosaur is life and was alive. Where did it come from.

To this living day we got it right to copy a lot of things, I mean we even make diamond from carbon, but not one scientist has or come close to copy LIFE ot a living something.

Ans so it will go on--remember a scientist can read and write and some of them even think, and thats where it stays, they think and anticipate and predict and say in all probability, but they have proven nothing.

Like everything, Steven Hawking has found an angle which attracts the attention of a lot of people and he will reap the financial benefit from it. He will have his followers.

There is even now an organisation in the states where you can already book your place on a shuttle to mars, and it costs plenty, for the day the world ends.

Even this guy has a lot of followers and he is reaping the financial benefit from it.

Every reason will have believers, who become followers, luckily not all follow and believe in the same.

Hey Simen, I'll try and reply to your questions, not from a point of challenging your beliefs but explaining why I challenged mine. I'm not sure I understand your point on scientists creating life, though. You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.

I think one of the misconceptions that a lot of religious people have is that science is out to disprove that God exists. It isn't. Science doesn't have an agenda. All that scientists have said is that there is no evidence that a god exists.

I think this chart sums up the fundamental difference between science and religion for me:



Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 09:54 am by WWFisherman

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 09:54 am
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102nd Post
kraken
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Like your arguments WWfisherman!

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 10:17 am
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Simen
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WWFisherman wrote: Simen wrote: Glenn all good and well. Lets say man evolved out of an atom and dust and whatever.

Either I am missing the point here or you are. Read above in blue. Even a dinosaur is life and was alive. Where did it come from.

To this living day we got it right to copy a lot of things, I mean we even make diamond from carbon, but not one scientist has or come close to copy LIFE ot a living something.

Ans so it will go on--remember a scientist can read and write and some of them even think, and thats where it stays, they think and anticipate and predict and say in all probability, but they have proven nothing.

Like everything, Steven Hawking has found an angle which attracts the attention of a lot of people and he will reap the financial benefit from it. He will have his followers.

There is even now an organisation in the states where you can already book your place on a shuttle to mars, and it costs plenty, for the day the world ends.

Even this guy has a lot of followers and he is reaping the financial benefit from it.

Every reason will have believers, who become followers, luckily not all follow and believe in the same.

Hey Simen, I'll try and reply to your questions, not from a point of challenging your beliefs but explaining why I challenged mine. I'm not sure I understand your point on scientists creating life, though. You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.

I think one of the misconceptions that a lot of religious people have is that science is out to disprove that God exists. It isn't. Science doesn't have an agenda. All that scientists have said is that there is no evidence that a god exists.

I think this chart sums up the fundamental difference between science and religion for me:





You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.


No, not for one minute am I saying that the reason that we cannot create life is for not believing in God.

I am also not saying that they have to create life to prove that there is'nt a God.

Also I have no believe that scientist have a hidden agenda to prove the existence or non existence of God.

I am merely stating that they cannot without any reasonable doubt prove that man evolved from an atom or dust. Nor can they explain where the dinosaur came from.

I am stating a FACT that no person on earth and in the history of earth has and could prove that God did not create earth and all animals and plants and life as we know it.

I am a firm believer in COMMON SENSE. So should for arguments sake we accept the big bang theory and man evolved from an atom.

That should mean that only one thing should have evolved and all would be alike.

Same DNA ( scientists have proven DNA going back millions of years ) would then be found in all living things, or at least some connection.

Now, why aren't all the animals eg just Lions. Why aren't all the plants just roses?

Or was the bang so big that not only one form of life started but 100 000 different animals 1000 000 different plants, white people, black people, etc, some Asain with different looks.

Your theory is now more and more starting to sound like the worlds biggest "BANG" that ever existed.

All that scientists have said is that there is no evidence that a god exists.

Lets agree to disagree-- I agree with there evidence ( not beliefs), but they haven't proven where life started either.

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 10:41 am
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WWFisherman
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I just wrote a point-by-point reply to your post, Simen, and when I posted it it came up blank…

I'll have to find the motivation again later ;)

Basically I agreed with a few things you said, i.e. science can't prove beyond doubt how the world was created but it doesn't claim to, either. It only puts forward theories that are currently supported by the evidence on hand. Science also cannot disprove the hand of a superior being in all of this. There are many scientists with religious beliefs.

Where I disagree with you is your interpretation of the big bang theory, which I think you've oversimplified, especially with regards to your argument on why all animals would look the same and the DNA would be universal.

Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 10:52 am by WWFisherman

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 11:25 am
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Simen
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WWFisherman wrote: I just wrote a point-by-point reply to your post, Simen, and when I posted it it came up blank…

I'll have to find the motivation again later ;)

Basically I agreed with a few things you said, i.e. science can't prove beyond doubt how the world was created but it doesn't claim to, either. It only puts forward theories that are currently supported by the evidence on hand. Science also cannot disprove the hand of a superior being in all of this. There are many scientists with religious beliefs.

Where I disagree with you is your interpretation of the big bang theory, which I think you've oversimplified, especially with regards to your argument on why all animals would look the same and the DNA would be universal.

Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

I agree that I oversimplified it. Again let common sense prevail.

In the ice age, we agree that there was more than one type of dinosaur with more than one type of plant.

Scientists also say that the continents as we know them today was all one. lets for arguments sake agree it was ( as said before)

Now there's  questions before the big bang thats not answered.

 Where did the animals come from that were there before the bang?

Did ONLY man not exist at that time? Or was there some sort of man already.

Again lets take that as true.

Now the bang happens.

All live came to and end.

Man evolved from whatever. And the animals? Plants? plants maybe as seed could be buried/stored for a long time before growing again.

Then where is there other theory that man grew out of the ape.

There are 2 versions  (and you could go check) of the scientists explanation. Some say there was man during the time of the dinosaur ( before the bang), some say man evolved after the bang.

Which is which.


Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Please understand that I am not trying you to change your belief, only you can do it. I am merely putting forward my beliefs and my argument as to how and why I believe.

 

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 11:48 am
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WWFisherman
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Mana: 
Simen wroteI agree that I oversimplified it. Again let common sense prevail.

In the ice age, we agree that there was more than one type of dinosaur with more than one type of plant.

Scientists also say that the continents as we know them today was all one. lets for arguments sake agree it was ( as said before)

Now there's  questions before the big bang thats not answered.

 Where did the animals come from that were there before the bang?

Did ONLY man not exist at that time? Or was there some sort of man already.

Again lets take that as true.

Now the bang happens.

All live came to and end.

Man evolved from whatever. And the animals? Plants? plants maybe as seed could be buried/stored for a long time before growing again.

Then where is there other theory that man grew out of the ape.

There are 2 versions  (and you could go check) of the scientists explanation. Some say there was man during the time of the dinosaur ( before the bang), some say man evolved after the bang.

Which is which.


Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Please understand that I am not trying you to change your belief, only you can do it. I am merely putting forward my beliefs and my argument as to how and why I believe.

 

When I refer to the Big Bang, I'm talking about the beginning of our universe, not life on earth, I think maybe you're referring to the asteroid impact on earth that wiped out the dinosaurs so we're probably debating different events here…

Anyway, regardless of our different views on how fish evolved on this planet, at least the one thing we have in common is that we love catching them ;)

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 12:33 pm
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Sarah de Jager
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Chris Shelton wrote:
Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 9 - 11;
'And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into ONE place, and let the dry land appear:

'And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.'

So then, if you believe that, then while there may well have been life on other planets before the so called gathering of the waters, which is now called Seas....then you have to believe that with this gathering of ALL the waters under the heaven, that all life was relocated to Earth!

So, believing this with my whole heart,my belief t I have just justified hat there is no life out there....which is already far more than any believer in aliens can do!




@ Chris - If I can maybe just add something there..

The way I see it, is that the waters mentioned here, are the waters here on our earth (while God was still busy creating Earth) as well as the "sky" or heaven. That will be OUR sky/heaven and not the rest of the Universe's. What He was busy doing, was  seperating the land and the water on earth. 

So, in other words, God was creating the Earth planet and what is on it. There is no mention of Mars, Jupiter etc in the rest of the Universe.

That is why I believe that God also created the other planets, but on another day.

That is just how I see and understand it but then, the Bible is interpreted very different ways..:)

 

 

 

 


 

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 12:59 pm
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silver_foxx
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WWFisherman wrote: Simen wroteI agree that I oversimplified it. Again let common sense prevail.

In the ice age, we agree that there was more than one type of dinosaur with more than one type of plant.

Scientists also say that the continents as we know them today was all one. lets for arguments sake agree it was ( as said before)

Now there's  questions before the big bang thats not answered.

 Where did the animals come from that were there before the bang?

Did ONLY man not exist at that time? Or was there some sort of man already.

Again lets take that as true.

Now the bang happens.

All live came to and end.

Man evolved from whatever. And the animals? Plants? plants maybe as seed could be buried/stored for a long time before growing again.

Then where is there other theory that man grew out of the ape.

There are 2 versions  (and you could go check) of the scientists explanation. Some say there was man during the time of the dinosaur ( before the bang), some say man evolved after the bang.

Which is which.


Again, my lack of belief in a god isn't based on science but rather as a result of a philosophical conflict that I see with the whole idea.

Please understand that I am not trying you to change your belief, only you can do it. I am merely putting forward my beliefs and my argument as to how and why I believe.

 

When I refer to the Big Bang, I'm talking about the beginning of our universe, not life on earth, I think maybe you're referring to the asteroid impact on earth that wiped out the dinosaurs so we're probably debating different events here…

Anyway, regardless of our different views on how fish evolved on this planet, at least the one thing we have in common is that we love catching them ;)


 

Oh man...this is priceless....::rofl:

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 01:08 pm
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Glenn
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Simen wrote: You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.




 

Man is in the process already ...

1. Remember Dolly the 'Sheep' (1997) ?? And amoungst mice & cow's and other animal's the most recent has been ferret's that have been successfully cloned.

2. Human cloning is not allowed at present, but it can be done.. I think this is a really bad idea to clone a human... Look at the consequence's this will lead to ...

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 01:13 pm
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Simen
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Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.




 

Man is in the process already ...

1. Remember Dolly the 'Sheep' (1997) ?? And amoungst mice & cow's and other animal's the most recent has been ferret's that have been successfully cloned.

2. Human cloning is not allowed at present, but it can be done.. I think this is a really bad idea to clone a human... Look at the consequence's this will lead to ...


You are very wrong here, cloning means duplicating cutting in half/quaters not creating.

Excisting item only made more.

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 01:18 pm
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Glenn
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Simen wrote: Glenn wrote: Simen wrote: You're saying that if we don't believe in a god then why hasn't man been able to create life? I'm not sure why you think scientists need to be able to create life in order to disprove the existence of a creator.




 

Man is in the process already ...

1. Remember Dolly the 'Sheep' (1997) ?? And amoungst mice & cow's and other animal's the most recent has been ferret's that have been successfully cloned.

2. Human cloning is not allowed at present, but it can be done.. I think this is a really bad idea to clone a human... Look at the consequence's this will lead to ...


You are very wrong here, cloning means duplicating cutting in half/quaters not creating.

Excisting item only made more.


The concept can be seen in different way's... Have a look at it this way ..

 

Human cloning is the creation of a genetically identical copy of a human (not usually referring to monozygotic multiple births), human cell, or human tissue. The ethics of cloning is an extremely controversial issue. The term is generally used to refer to artificial human cloning; human clones in the form of identical twins are commonplace, with their cloning occurring during the natural process of reproduction. There are two commonly discussed types of human cloning: therapeutic cloning and reproductive cloning. Therapeutic cloning involves cloning cells from an adult for use in medicine and is an active area of research, while reproductive cloning would involve making cloned humans. Such reproductive cloning has not been performed and is illegal in many countries. A third type of cloning called replacement cloning is a theoretical possibility, and would be a combination of therapeutic and reproductive cloning. Replacement cloning would entail the replacement of an extensively damaged, failed, or failing body through cloning followed by whole or partial brain transplant.

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 01:29 pm
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Simen
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Therapeutic cloning involves cloning cells from an adult for use in medicine and is an active area of research, while reproductive cloning would involve making cloned humans

No, I dont see it in a different way. Read what you have written (involves cloning cells from an adult  ).

If there is an adult so there is already existing life.

Dont get confused with changing/altering,cloning, etc, life. We have been talking about CREATING life.

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 01:41 pm
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Glenn
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I have managed to locate Stephen Hawking's ?Into The Universe Clip's.. I think trying to explain this all is to much for anybody to understand never mind me... Enjoy!!

The first 5 part's are from Time Travel ...











 

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 01:44 pm
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Glenn
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Simen wrote: Therapeutic cloning involves cloning cells from an adult for use in medicine and is an active area of research, while reproductive cloning would involve making cloned humans

No, I dont see it in a different way. Read what you have written (involves cloning cells from an adult  ).

If there is an adult so there is already existing life.

Dont get confused with changing/altering,cloning, etc, life. We have been talking about CREATING life.

You have a point there and i agree.. but It's still another life.. a heart beat.. a breath.. a movement.. making a difference in life.     :)

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 01:54 pm
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silver_foxx
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Yeah I dont think cloning qualifies as creating life, just transferring or 'copying' the life force from one living being to another.

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 02:14 pm
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Glenn
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This is how the world start'd with 'The Big Bang' It is very interesting stuff.. Try'd to explain it, but it was too much to detail ..

 



















Glenn -

 

 

 

 

 

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 02:26 pm
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Glenn
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silver_foxx wrote: Yeah I dont think cloning qualifies as creating life, just transferring or 'copying' the life force from one living being to another.

If man can clone now .. Man will create life at a later stage.. it is only a matter of time I guess..

I remember a guy.. cant remember his name.. (Some top notch smart person) 20 or less year's ago who laugh'd when he was told that in the future.. you could pay everything by a 'card'

I wonder what this guy think's now...   :lol:1

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 03:31 pm
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Simen
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Glenn wrote: silver_foxx wrote: Yeah I dont think cloning qualifies as creating life, just transferring or 'copying' the life force from one living being to another.

If man can clone now .. Man will create life at a later stage.. it is only a matter of time I guess..

I remember a guy.. cant remember his name.. (Some top notch smart person) 20 or less year's ago who laugh'd when he was told that in the future.. you could pay everything by a 'card'

I wonder what this guy think's now...   :lol:1


If man can clone now .. Man will create life at a later stage.. it is only a matter of time I guess

Glenn, no arguments there, but remember what we are discussing now is --how was life created yesterday and not how we will be able to create life tomorrow.

Wife is next to watching the videos, I am just catching some comment here and there. So far all I can say is that Hawkins watched to many science fiction movies.

Most of his comment start with

--If we could

==If it was possible

--Should we be able

--If we could

--Suppose

Dont make any assumptions on my comment about the videos yet as I will watch them in detail later and give you my opinion.

 

 

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 03:44 pm
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Glenn
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Equipment: To Long To Fit In Here ....
Best Catch: 37.5lb Common Carp - 20lb Wels Catfish - 12Kg Natal ...
Favorite Fishing Spot: St.Lucia Estuary - Cape Vidal - Durban - Blue Lagoon
Boat: The Eric Cotton
Club: The Glenn You Can Kiss My Ass Club!
Status: 
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Mana: 
@ Simen

 

Are you only at the time travel part yet??

The best part's are the big bang (9 parts)

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 Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 03:57 pm
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120th Post
Sarah de Jager
Sealiner


Joined: Wed Jan 16th, 2008
Location: Usakos, Namibia
Posts: 1117
Equipment: Daiwa sl30, Trini 16 reels & Shimano rods, braid
Best Catch: 9kg Cob, 6 kg Steenbra, 7kg Kingfish & 16kg Spotty
Favorite Fishing Spot: Mile 108 Namibia
Boat: n/a
Club: Henties Bay Angling Club
Status: 
Offline
Mana: 
My Gallery: 
Will watch later and give u my opinion..

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SEALINE - South African Angling and Boating Community > Non-Angling Discussion Area > Lounge > Aliens Really Do Exist! Top