GUILTY

G Spot

New member
Court Report – sentencing 21[suP]st[/suP] January 2009.

 

Following his arrest on 10[suP]th[/suP] January 2009 and conviction on 14[suP]th[/suP] January for contravention of the Marine Living Resources Act environmental conservation regulations, Mr Greg Clur, owner of charter fishing boat “Extreme”, was sentenced on 21[suP]st[/suP] January in the Kei Mouth magistrate’s court.

 

The two counts of being in possession of a prohibited species, seventy-four and having filleted the fish before returning to land were taken together and he was fined R6000 or 6 months in gaol, half of which was suspended for 5 years;

 

On the count of catching more of the threatened red steenbras species than allowed by quota regulations, he was fined R5000 or 4 months in gaol, half of which was suspended for 5 years;

 

For being in possession of undersize threatened yellowbelly rockcod species, he was fined R4000 or 90 days gaol, also with half the sentence suspended for 5 years.

 

The whole case was taken together and he was required to pay R8000 fine by close of court, or face a gaol term of the cumulative of all counts.  Indication is that the fine will be paid.

 

The State called as a witness Ms Siani Tinley, Chief of Marine Services, Buffalo City.  Ms Tinley elaborated on the over-exploited state of the species, their importance to the environment and the need for legislation to protect the species and the environment for future generations.  She pointed out that the restrictions in place were well-established and well-known.

 

In sentencing, the magistrate took into account that Mr Clur had admitted guilt, did not try to hide from the offences and that he was a first-time offender.  He noted that community interest in the case was high.

 

The case against the Skipper of a commercial vessel, Mr Lawrence Love and four co-accused arrested for alleged Marine Living Resources Act contraventions in August 2007 was remanded until Wednesday 28[suP]th[/suP] January for accused number 5 to obtain legal aid.  Accused number 5 skipped the court case last week and was remanded in custody pending the continuation of the case.

If you want to see the leading story about this matter go back to "Conservation, Marine, Coastal and Riverine" the topic "illegal Copper Steenbras" on the Sealine
 

will101

Senior Member
R8k! that's a joke. very disappointing indeed. This guy is probably smiling right now. I say take everything he owns.
 

Patrick

Sealiner
A mere pittance! He's probably already made that money ten fold in the amount he has taken and sold.
Should have gotten a much heftier fine AND confiscation of all his angling and boating equipment.
 

Kosi Fisher

Senior Member
IMO...there should be no such thing as a "first timer". People fail, time and again, to take responsibility for their actions, to the detriment of other people or, in this case, natural resources. I say scrap the fines, confiscate his tackle, boat, trailer and bakkie, then throw him in jail for a while to give him time to think.

As is sadly too often happening in our country, the lack of policing/monitoring resources has allowed this guy to continue until now, and a lack of a proper judicial sentencing will allow him to carry on. At a minimum, his boat licence should also be revoked.
 

royboy

Sealiner
Shite!!!! Odds on that he will be hammering the Coppers and 74s again before the week is out! 8 Grand is sweet bugger all - in fact it almost provides an incentive for other dubious operators to get in on the act.........

This does not act as a deterant........
 

khalaharikid

Sealiner
kinda makes you think , we always make sure dont take undersize fish keep to the limit, thats all good, but what if i dont????? make sure i have 5k spare and can fish how the hell i want, how come non of his equipment was confiscated??????????
 

Obsession

Senior Member
IMHO they are sending out the wrong message here those that exploit. Thats no fine or punishment. It falls just short of a reprimand. If they took his boat plus that fine then we talking business. At least theyn will keep him off the water for a while.
 

neilg

Sealiner
Ag what the hell, let me make a few "enemies" today, after all it is Friday and I have a tendancy to swim upstream ...

Don't know the people, never seen them, never heard of them.

But (there is always a but)

How much of a penalty is enough ?
I read the fine of R 8000 isn't enough, hell that's alot of money in my opinion (and is based on the amount of fish, not just thumbsucked hey)
Then there's tackle should be confiscated, why oh why, he already got fined for his actions, why confiscate his tackle/boat.

Exactly how many fish did he catch ? I know the Red Steenbras are under severe pressure and GOOD FINES are in order, but the 74 should have been removed from that list LONG TIME AGO.

Believe It should have been prohibited, then recreational only and then after the numbers ARE WAAY UP open for Commercial exploitation again.

I really really hope than nobody on this forum is a judge ! I don't think the government would have storage place for all the confiscated items.

Penalty should = the crime people.

If I ride 60 in a 80 zone should I get a R 10 000 fine and maybe a 1 year jail sentence and maybe even have my car confiscated ?
What about if my blood alcohol level is .06 instead of .05 ?

I'm not saying go soft on "crime" (like catching more fish than what's allowed), but I'm saying atleast be realistic.

Honestly, most people will scream catch and release and then quietly load there catch into a plastic bag !

R 8000 is NOT A SMALL FINE, it's ALOT OF MONEY.
Did you know you only allowed 10 Strepies, 4 Elf, 50 sandprawn, 50 mudprawn, PER DAY, whether you eat them or use them for bait.
LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING, very very few people keep to those limits.

Not saying it's right, but in theory if I have 70 mudprawns in my possession (how many people count the amount they pull) I should have my car or my tackle confiscated.

Really people, be realistic
 

khalaharikid

Sealiner
its not the fact that the fine is to small, its the fact that this guy is doing it on a regular basis, i doubt this is the first time or the last time he will take small and protected species, how many times a week you think he goes out and rapes the ocean!!!!!!

That is the big issue  
 

neilg

Sealiner
[color=#006600]khalaharikid[/color] wrote:
its not the fact that the fine is to small, its the fact that this guy is doing it on a regular basis, i doubt this is the first time or the last time he will take small and protected species, how many times a week you think he goes out and rapes the ocean!!!!!!

That is the big issue  
Just my observation that's all.
 

G Spot

New member
A little background may put the story into perspective.

I was on holiday at Kei Mouth in December and they were operating a charter business there. I would assume that any charter operator should know the rules?

Secondly, they were spotted fishing in the Kei protected area.... we warned them they they were fishing illegally.

Thirdly, the skipper, Mr Love, has been caught a few times before, and it it going to be intersting to see what happens to him next week when he appears in court as he has not been sentenced yet?

The Eastern Cape Department of Environmental Affairs warned Mr Clurr more than once during the December holidays that he was breaking the law. I witnessed them taking to them and warning them at the slkipway.

Lastly, I personall warned the owner of the vessel that it was illegal to go out to sea and catch your quota, and then go out again later in the day for a second quota...I informed him that the quota was per day and not per trip... he basically told me to $%&* off and mind my own business.

Whow, and what a surprise to come back to Cape Town and a week later to hear  that the guy was caught......

I have no respect for the individual as he was conciously breaking the law...

Oh by the way... I saw him dropping fish off at a retail/resturant/business premises...not sure if he was storing his catch there...one never knows....
 

tkei

Sealiner
Niel,
I hear what you are saying, BUT and its a big one.
R8k is a lot if you are fishing from shore, have begged borrowed and stolenm tackle and were keeping shad, piggies, etc over quota to feed your family.
In this case the guy owns a 350k boat, I dont know the tow vehicle but call it 50K plus tackle etc and he is sitting on 4ook woth of equipment. Not small change that. 8 k is small change to him, as is probably his weekends powder sniffing habits funds. (yes he is/was a druggie) along with Lawrance love(the skipper). Read the post in conservation section.
You being caught with 65 prawns you will use for bait is not the problem here. Breaking the law yes, but not IMO a huge issue. These chops have chartered out the boat to make cash and are then catching over quota and illegal fish for additional gain. F&$@K them. What is the difference between catching Seventy Four and shooting a rhino. Both are prohibeted and are protected. If they shot Rhino and sold the horns, would your attitude be the same.
I know you are also pro conservation, but the mr love is a serial offender and has been for years. Lock him up with Babba with no pants on and throw away the key.
 

neilg

Sealiner
Love is in the air .... and babba got Energiser Tablets ...

I didn't read the whole story on all the different threads, it seems there's a few of them.

If he's a commercial operator in any way that makes it a commercial crime, and they don't have a problem attaching assets...

I just gave my own opinion, not saying what he does/did is right. You do the crime be prepared to do the time they say.

But (and somewhere there is always a BIG BUT)

About the AK74's, they are really not a threatened species anymore, many offshore anglers will tell you that, they are becoming a pest (like the Karel Grootoog). They should have been back on the Recreational Only list a while ago already.
As for Rhinos, boet now that's a different story, they aren't threatened, they on the verge of extinction...

The message I was trying to get accross (without all the facts about this incident and actually talking in the broader sense) is the penalty should fit the crime and there is criteria in determining the penalty.

Keeping 2 instead of 1 is just as bad as keeping 3, being over the limit while driving, even if just .01 is still a crime.

If I was against hunting I would work to punish someone as hard as possibly be could because that's close to my heart
If I was against fishing the same story
If I was against speeding the same story

That's what I'm trying to say, fishing is close to our hearts, therefore we don't always think with a clear mind, we get immotianal ...

Once a president has been set, there is no turning back, you confiscate a boat for someone having over the recreational permit allowed amount then that's it, the law can't choose to punish the one severely and let the other go with a slap on the wrist, cause if they do the one that got a big hiding can go back and claim his assists back.

The it 1 fish, 5 fish or 10 prawns.

That's why I still say, sometimes our intentions are good, but the desired outcome most of the times leaves a very bad taste in your mouth.
 

tkei

Sealiner
Ok, on the sev's. I would agree they are miking a serious come back, IN EC waters. In natal they are still like a sharks vicory in the curry cup, happens once every 12 years or so. They are still scarce. I have caught some beautiful big fat sevs off el lately but i think they will give it anopther 5 years or so, then open it to 1 per sperson per day.
ja, setting a president is a problem, but where you have employed a known crimanala nd serial offender as your skipper and then get caught after being warned, its a different matter to being one over limit etc. Everyone know the skipper was a criminal and was still under ibnvestigation. If you employ a known thief, dont complain when you get riobbed. Mr clurr knew who his skipper was and his reputation. Take the pain boet and 8k isnt not enough pain there.
 

BigMatt

Sealiner
i would have thought he deserved a bit more than that....shad anglers have there equipement confiscated around here...and this guy has 3-4 endangered species on board and gets a fine!
 

Marthin

Sealiner
Neil,

everything you are saying makes sense from a completely neutral point of view.

but here's the one difference. if you are driving 80 in a sixty zone you are not doing so to enrich yourself, neither with your 70 mudprawns or your extra elf for live bait.

I do however feel if you were chartering and you took 70 mudprawns or that extra elf for live bait your fines should be considerably worse.

Like i feel a taxi/bus/shuttle driver should be fined a lot more for driving 80 in a 60 zone or being under the influence.

it's the same as a professional hunter/guide being caught with 6 rhino horns in my opinion.

Also the fines/punishment for 2nd & 3rd offences should be really drastic.
 
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