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Increasing casting distance  Rate Topic 
 
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 Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2018 11:21 pm
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Maestro
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Hi guys

My spinning setup consists of an Assasin Amia zero HMC 11ft heavy, Saragosa 6000, Boss braid 8X strand 30lb.

I seem to be lacking that extra 50m or so of casting distance that I am looking for,regardless of the weight of plug that I use.

Is the lenghth of the rod restricting the distance,and would a 12ft plus rod provide more distance, which would be the most logical conclusion, or are there other factors to consider, such as rod loading, braid etc?

anyone with experience care to comment?

Thanks

Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2018 08:35 pm by Maestro

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 12:45 am
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yacoob
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Hi Maestro

Technique, technique and technique, then rod and reel combination, then braid. Even the size and make of your rod eyes makes a huge difference. Maybe get in touch with someone who casts well and let them cast your rod and see the result. After that, cast with their rods and see if their combination works with your technique....

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 11:24 am
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Tackle-holic
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Mana: 
Yacoob's remarks are dead on.
But, 1st determine how you are actually casting.
Actual. Measured on the beach or field.
Test with the plug (I assume something along the lines of a 1.5oz GT Ice Cream)
You may be casting it very well already.
How far are you wanting to cast it?
Are you expectations reasonable?

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 11:46 am
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Maestro
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Good feeeback,thanks.

Great idea to measure the cast on the beach. Will play with different actions and weight of plugs. Currently i am measuring my cast against fellow anglers.

This will actually serve as casting practice, sort of like a training session which is implemented in other sports.

I suppose most of us merely learn to cast while practically fishing,with limiting techniques becoming entrenched into our cast thereafter, but it would be very interesting to explore the idea of periodically practicing on the beach, and actually measuring distance, fine tuning etc.

Its all about the 'marginal gains', as they say.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 12:37 pm
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Tackle-holic
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I field cast (people ask what the hell I am doing and I say, "Targeting grass carp!")

Golfers practice at the range not on the course...

Once you know how far you are casting, be realistic about gains.
There are limits as to what each lure in your bag can do, no matter how good your technique or tackle set up.
Certain lures cast like paper cups, but catch fish anyway.
Others cast like sinkers.
Choose ONE projectile to practice with so that the gains you may (or may not) achieve are comparable.
Of the solid body plugs, the Needle Nose Ice Cream is the best caster, but is not always the best option to fish with.
Reports back as I am keen to hear:

1. How far you can actually cast above mentioned plug.
2. How far you want to cast it.
3. How far your friends say they can cast it.....

Last edited on Sat Aug 4th, 2018 12:37 pm by Tackle-holic

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 04:46 pm
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Dr halibut hoffman
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On a saragosa 5000..change your line for HMP 25lb 8 strand casting line. That should do it..It is not the rod loading as it is different weight plugs..Friction through guides and off the lip of the 5000's small spool is costing you I think as well as maybe air resistance of a line of that diameter which is possibly too large for application. If you still are not getting your distance after dropping line diameter and putting as premium line on, get the rod redone with the right Fuji anti tangle layout in stainless alconites for the best bang for buck.

HMP might be a cheaper line here in SA but I've fished a whole lot of braids and HMP is without a doubt better quality in my opinion actually than mid range stuff I've fished. I have HMP on all my braid outfits by now, comparably to only a high end jap braid that I had spooled sometime back. Breaking strains are as advertised, no "30lb line that is actually a 50lb" type stuff as other brands do..Do not know boss braid nor its diameter but what I can say is that every other brand that I fished except the jap high end and HMP understated breaking strain and diameter. Some were twice as thick and had a ropey feel and then I wondered why I was getting no distance...

Might be cheaper to buy a new loomis 11ft XH or standard for the weight plugs you fish (with the correct layout and guides already and HMG blank) than to redo the eyes though, I might warn you.

With an 1.5 oz plug and 11ft HMG grinder rod, correct guides and layout, correct quality and diameter line and shimmy 5000 you should just be able to lob the thing like a pleb and it should fly a mile..otherwise if you still can't cast the thing to the blue, left elbow up, follow through with the hands..cast much further if I need to now that I don't lob it, but even in the past with decent rod, 10ft, k@k guides, with nice reel or not and thin line I could lob it pretty far enough..

AA11-2H / AA11-2HMGS :  2 piece with BAG Recommended Casting Weight: ¾oz - 1½oz (21g-45g) PE Rating (Braided Line):  PE 1 - 2 (15lb - 30lb) LENGTH: 11’/3.3M

http://www.fishingworld.com.au/how-to/what-is-pe-rating
https://www.henry-gilbey.com/blog/pe-ratings-breaking-strains-diameters-i-am-confused

Your rod meant for line with real diameter of .165mm (pe1) and .235mm (pe2) and light plug. I can guess pretty accurately that your 30lb will be well over that..If the weave is rough it will make the problem worse or like 832 if it has a different fibre in that makes the weave uneven can make it worse..As a line gets "stronger" the amount of material and the surface area increase exponentially and thus so does the air resistance and line friction. A small light lure can't over come this and distance suffers dramatically, a heavier lure and rig it will make less difference.

"HMP ( High Molecular Polyethylene ) is a ultra thin braided fishing line manufactured in KZN. The line is braided coated, heat stretched in the factory in KZN. The line strength 25,35,50,75,100,150 & 200Ibs all 8 strand.
25Ibs an excellent choice for Bass Fishing
35 & 50Ibs Rock & Surf or Backing
75 & 100Ibs Leader Line
150 & 200Ibs the ultimate line for the commercial boats for deep water with no drag.
All the lines are either supplied coated natural or colored yellow or green.Below see number of filaments to strength. The coating and the density of the Braid improves the abrasion and having no memory of the line
25Ibs & 35Ibs have 15 filaments to one 8 strand = 120 filaments The choice of the number of filaments makes the line supple for casting
50Ibs & 75Ibs 8 strand has 65 filaments = 520 filaments.
100Ibs & 150Ibs 8 strand x 90 filament = 720 filaments
200Ibs 8 strand x 180 filaments = 1440 filaments"

That from HMP's facebook page and illustrates how much material a line contains goes up exponentially as breaking strain goes up. I once put some brands 30lb on my light rig as there was no 20lb available..sheeesh..no distance. Now that brands 30lb is thicker and rougher than HMP's 50lb 8 strand and it was no brainwave as to why I was casting at my feet. Before the reel had the same brands 20lb and was ok, line not the strongest either, replaced that with HMP 2 years back with the 25lb and it is thinner than the 20lb of the other brand by a decent margin and breaks at 25lb or so unlike the other 20lb that broke at over 30lb until the different fibre had perished then it was considerably weaker. The HMP is of higher grade spec PE used I am sure of too and lasts longer than the other stuff I have used. Some stuff was frayed after a few fishing sessions from casting, HMP has caught fish after fish, season in and out, and they don't lie about their breaking strains to make it look like their line is quality..

The manufacturers of HMP imply in between the lines that their line is of the best, they are allowed to use the dyneema brand in their marketing, of which very few factories in the world actually can (as far as I know) and denotes reputation and quality. They actually understate how good the stuff is, and give accurate breaking strains and let the line speak for itself. I take my hat off to them. Change your line first, guides second, if that doesn't work, learn to cast a multiplier properly with proper instruction, and apply that technique back to the grinder and you will be more accurate and cast further with far less effort.

Last edited on Sat Aug 4th, 2018 05:13 pm by Dr halibut hoffman

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 07:15 pm
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plugger
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Maestro I have the Amia with a Straddic 500. I don't know what distance you are getting but I average around 90 and sometimes a 100 metres. I took some advice on lifting my left elbow level with my chin. I tend to cast sideways a bit( the rod not the direction) and lifting the elbow sent the lure higher and gave me a few more metres. I was throwing into a shoal of Garfish but I wanted to get past it. I have had my Amia redone with Fuji Concept eyes which apparently should give me around 20 to 30 metrres and improve the performance with the lighter lures. (According to other guys on that forum). I haven't had a chance to test it out yet but I'm going to Vidal on Wednesday ( if the quack says it's ok) and will let you know how it performs. The braid you use is very important as already covered above

Attachment: image.jpeg (Downloaded 323 times)

Last edited on Sat Aug 4th, 2018 07:26 pm by plugger

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 07:29 pm
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plugger
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The rod is actually bending backwards which I have great difficulty in seeing. The lure which is a magic missile is on my left just above the horizon. This is the picture which prompted the higher left elbow advice. My boys call me " ol sidewinder" and tend to fish on my left.

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 07:40 pm
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Maestro
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Excellent info there Dr, will deffinitely look into HMP braid, and give it a try.

@plugger

Yes it seems like the standard eyes on the assassin amia may be a bit smaller than ideal,although I am not comfortable with the idea of having to redo the eyes.

Do update us on the difference you find with the new eyes.

Great pic of you in action !((goodp_

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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 08:51 pm
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plugger
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Thanks Maestro, the Fugi concept is to get the outgoing line straight as quickly as possible to minimize friction and line slap. There are amazing slow mo videos on their website that show what the line does as it flies off the spool. I'm surprised it gets through the eyes at all. Miy Amia now has 4 choking eyes and then 8 small eyes all of the same diameter. I used to think that so many eyes would spoil the performance but apparently not.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 09:23 pm
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flippy
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braid has evolved https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/KastKing-Superkast-9-300-Yds-275m-9-Strand-10-15-20-30-40-50-65-80LB/1192809_32849170774.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.43.5db23aaeFDOsXG&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10059_10340_10341_10696_100031_10084_10083_10103_10618_10624_10307_10623_10622_10621_10620-normal#cfs,searchweb201603_44,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=5235fe59-95bb-4a8e-81c7-981ab75148b4-5&algo_pvid=5235fe59-95bb-4a8e-81c7-981ab75148b4&transAbTest=ae803_2&priceBeautifyAB=0

been thinking about getting this braid for more than a month and its at half price for 2 more days but looks ropey.. to add ordered this https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Durable-RC-Ball-Bearing-Driver-Install-Remove-Tool-Removal-Puller-OD-2-3-4-5-6/32805043497.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.1bf14c4dmyeyxW to check reel bearings on regular basis end of April and still waiting.. not so sure :X

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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 09:25 pm
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willem wikkel spies
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Mana: 
length of rod will always determine casting distance.

but upgrading to a 12ft or even longer rood will give you more distance.
but will you be able to cast it all day long?
the short answer is no as the set up becomes too heavy.
that its why the 11 ft to 11,6 ft rods are the best for casting spoons deep.

remember that the whole rod, rod guides, reel, braid and spoon is a balanced setup.


if one is out of spec, then the whole system suffers!



the great Barry Wareham knows this all too well.


good advise has also been given.

your combo is not that bad....only the braid is suspect to me.


also, spoons.
s-bend spoons like to flutter when casted out...their action in the water is better then a straight spoon.

but due to the fluttering....distance is affected.


then again, straight spoons cast very well and great distances are gained.
but the down side is....they need to be reeled in very fast.

as they do not have great actions. so you normally just get a response bite on them.


then also, the lighter spoon with less action does not allow braid to be wind on lekker onto a reel.
as it is so smooth.

never overfill the reel.
rather sacrifice 20 meters and keep on spinning then having wind knots consuming your casting time.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 09:34 pm
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Maestro
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Thanks Willem

I am def going to change the brand of braid as well as the diameter and see. Was initially going for another brand but the salesman convinced me to give this one a try. I have not had any issues with wind knots thus far.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 12:07 am
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Dr halibut hoffman
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If you put on a 15lb of the same brand you have..you'd be probably happily spinning away. Line makers think it seems makes their line look good and strong to understate the breaking strain but it just makes life difficult for the angler to get the correct line and then makes their line also seem like it under performs in casting whereas it may be decent. So it is quite the marketing gamble for them..:)

Right reel, line and dia., rod, guides, lure, terminal setup..ja agreed then it becomes a breeze..can be a real struggle. Right all, and windknots are a thing of the past, distance is easy, change just the guides or reel etc..and it can become a nightmare again haha!

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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 12:16 am
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Maestro
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true indeed

It makes a big difference whether the salesman is a regular fisherman or not, in the particular field that you intend to purchase. i.e an experienced rock and surf salesman may know nothing about artificial lure spinning setups, except what he is told and reads about.

At other times, he may be that old experienced 'uncle', who you do not want to offend by displaying mistrust to his 'expert', advice, hence you make the purchase to appease him, after which you go to another store and purchase the item that you want.... Not sure many know the feeling..lol

The correct balance of a spinning setup is vital, as I am learning, albeit the hard way, which is ,sometimes, the better way, but often the most expensive.

"Twice armed is he who comes prepared"
(I.e does his homework and research beforehand)

Last edited on Mon Aug 6th, 2018 12:28 am by Maestro

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 Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2018 08:28 pm
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Maestro
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So I changed the 30lb Boss braid to 20lb JDB glide coated casting braid, quite a drastic step down in terms of poundage,but without doubt,I am getting more distance on the cast. I would estimate between 30 to 50 meters more, although I would have to measure to be more accurate.

I no longer experience the slowing down of the cast, the further the plug travels away from me, as I did with the 30lb. However, I will say that the weight of the plug/lure makes a marked difference. My optimum distance is obtained with a 2 ounce plug. Anything above and the rod feels laboured (Assassin Amia zero HMC).

One issue is that the spool(saragosa 6000, not 5000 as stated before) is notably empty with the 20lb braid. Would one be advised to perhaps put some mono first as 'backing' and thereafter the braid, or not?

I was going for HMP braid initially, but didn't end up passing by Gremlins. I will definitely be picking up some from them to test it out.

Attachment: IMG_20180810_210827.jpg (Downloaded 219 times)

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 Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2018 09:27 am
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Dr halibut hoffman
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With the shimano tapered lip design on the spool, you can fill it to the brim...You'll loose distance the more empty the spool is. Use some of your 30lb underneath as a backing, you can join the braid 100%+ strong with a stitch join, search here, I put up a tutorial regarding that at some point in the past..Mono backing will also work, I prefer 120-150m of topshot that I cast and braid under, then when I start casting out too much of the underlying braid it is time to replace the topshot, much more economical.

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 Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2018 10:04 am
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Maestro
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Great advice. Will put in some backing.
Thanks man!!!

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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2018 11:37 am
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SPFOldTimer
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I am using the Loomis & Franklin Archipelago 11 foot with the older model Quantum Cabo 50 with 30lb suffix 832. In the beginning this was very frustrating because of numerous amount of wind knots and casting distance being between 75 and 90 metres with a straight 40gr type spoon. I persisted because in between there was that 1 cast that showed me that it can be different. This year I managed to obtain S shape toby like spoons in the 37 – 40 gr range. I managed to fish the entire 2 weeks with only 1 wind knot. It seems like the more you use your suffix 832 the softer it gets and the better it slides thru the eyes of the rod and when winding it onto the reel it tends to bed down better and the chances of wind knots decrease.
I spin in the Glenmore area close to the pulpit and due to the rockiness of the area as well as the release of fish I always change triples on my spoons to single hooks. I am fishing for more than 45 years and unfortunately, I have never learned a proper technique. In general, I will look a lot like plugger when casting when going for distance. I use a little protector over my casting finger for the possible line cuts.
I manage to get average about +- 100 meters on the 37 – 40gr S-shape spoons in low wind conditions. If I really put in effort I go out to about 120 meters. I did make a few casts with heavier 55 – 60gr spoons with a lot better distance but no good casting miles over the shad.
My take is that if you start off with a new setup your casting will be heavily impacted by new line. I will recommend that you either fish it for at least 5 to 6 outings before making a call. I was really thinking of dumping the 832 but since there are not many shops selling braid in the Port Edward area I persisted and today I am a very happy customer. I can also mention that my grandson fishes the 10-foot archipelago with an exceler Z4000 and 30lb skinny boss braid. He also used to have a lot of wind knots in the beginning but since the braid has been used for a while the wind knots are at a minimum and he is also getting good distances with the same spoons. Maybe braid and casting distance has something in common with a good red wine.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2018 06:22 pm
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willem wikkel spies
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Location: Heidelberg, South Africa
Posts: 3700
Equipment: ekt geleer net die beste werk.............................
Best Catch: eish waar begin ek?
Favorite Fishing Spot: noord van die tugela is goed genoeg
Boat: Kosi cat 16; 2x 60 mercs
Club: nooooit nie
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Mana: 
Maestro:
nice...so you have improved it already!!!
good man.

ok, just watch out,
when going lighter on braid...thinner like the hmp braid.

do check the area where your finger is working the braid.
this is just to save you from sending new spoons into the surf without them returning.

this applies to all braids, but the thicker older type braid can take more punishment on the finger tip.

a 6000 shimano size is still ok on a 11 ft rod.

SPFOld Timer:

Suffix 832 is like rope, for me that is and I do not like it.

toby type spoons do have much more resistance when reeling them in.
thus the line lay is more compact.
wind knots like to come with spoons which do not have a lekker action. trhis is why you need to spin at such high speed.
it is to try and get line lay more compact.

enjoy fellows!!!!

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